I'm sick to death of being taxed to death !

FreudianSlippers

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Isn't negative income tax therefore a form of welfare depending on the level of reimbursement? Would it be a disincentive to work because if I choose not to work or work extra hours I'll receive money for not working?

1) It is a form of "welfare" in the traditional sense, but it is not run by the government and is therefore significantly cheaper, it reduces the "welfare trap" because workers are not penalised for seeking higher wages (i.e. they don't necessarily lose their "welfare" as they earn more), it is non-distortionary on the market, it does not lead to a "cobra effect" in terms of wages that we see here, it should eliminate under-the-table work.

2) No it would not be a disincentive to work, because the potential for earning below whatever the threshold is doesn't decrease your take-home pay. So if the flat tax / negative income tax was 40% and the cut-off was €30k, a person earning €0 would receive a negative income tax of €12k; but if that person worked and earned even €10k in a year, they would receive a negative income tax of €8k meaning their take home would be €18k or an additional €6k.

lawred2

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

1) It is a form of "welfare" in the traditional sense, but it is not run by the government and is therefore significantly cheaper, it reduces the "welfare trap" because workers are not penalised for seeking higher wages (i.e. they don't necessarily lose their "welfare" as they earn more), it is non-distortionary on the market, it does not lead to a "cobra effect" in terms of wages that we see here, it should eliminate under-the-table work.

2) No it would not be a disincentive to work, because the potential for earning below whatever the threshold is doesn't decrease your take-home pay. So if the flat tax / negative income tax was 40% and the cut-off was €30k, a person earning €0 would receive a negative income tax of €12k; but if that person worked and earned even €10k in a year, they would receive a negative income tax of €8k meaning their take home would be €18k or an additional €6k.

NIT is so simple to administer that it would render an ocean of administrators and jobsworths idle - would ultimately remove the need for a lot of public sector jobs.

That just won't do now will it!?

Skommando

I don't mind paying taxes, but

(1) There's a large amount of our taxes wasted on incompetence and bad management - that needs to be tackled

(2) I think the more you earn the more taxes you should pay, not less. Most if not all of the multi-millionaire in Ireland pay little to no taxes.

(3) yes a small proportion of less well off people abuse welfare in Ireland, something should also be done about them, and enough has already been said about that on this thread, but very very little about 1 and 2.

Also crazy situations where extremely wealthy people are paid state benefits like children's allowance should be regularised.

NovemberJersey

Can't understand how some people are so bitter that they clearly get so upset over some people not being punished enough by taxes… no way would I consider myself a wealthy man but I've no problem with people that are wealthy paying as little tax as possible, they're working hard to provide for their family, they shouldn't be taxed to within an inch of their life so that their money can then be used to provide for other people families just because those people don't earn enough money to provide for themselves

The grant that I get off the EU is for me and it's given to me by the EU and every year the government grabs half that money off me in the form of taxes, it should be tax free. I shouldn't have to pay €1 of tax on that money. People make comparisons to me and people on the dole just because I get a Single Farm Payment grant, the SFP is there to keep small farmers going. I don't give a damn if they get rid of that grant because I'll be able to buy all the neighbouring smaller farms when they inevitably get sold due to the lack of the SFP being there to make them viable.

marienbad

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Can't understand how some people are so bitter that they clearly get so upset over some people not being punished enough by taxes… no way would I consider myself a wealthy man but I've no problem with people that are wealthy paying as little tax as possible, they're working hard to provide for their family, they shouldn't be taxed to within an inch of their life so that their money can then be used to provide for other people families just because those people don't earn enough money to provide for themselves

The grant that I get off the EU is for me and it's given to me by the EU and every year the government grabs half that money off me in the form of taxes, it should be tax free. I shouldn't have to pay €1 of tax on that money. People make comparisons to me and people on the dole just because I get a Single Farm Payment grant, the SFP is there to keep small farmers going. I don't give a damn if they get rid of that grant because I'll be able to buy all the neighbouring smaller farms when they inevitably get sold due to the lack of the SFP being there to make them viable.

So you are wealthy enough to buy out all your neighbours when/if the time comes , you get a 1000 a week , and you still feel hard done by ?

Some sense of entitlement right there

RayCun

The grant you get from the EU didn't grow on trees, it comes from my taxes. And you have the brass neck to complain about paying tax on it.

I'm struggling to find any principles behind your attitude to taxation beyond "people should give me money and I shouldn't pay for anything "

lawred2

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Can't understand how some people are so bitter that they clearly get so upset over some people not being punished enough by taxes… no way would I consider myself a wealthy man but I've no problem with people that are wealthy paying as little tax as possible, they're working hard to provide for their family, they shouldn't be taxed to within an inch of their life so that their money can then be used to provide for other people families just because those people don't earn enough money to provide for themselves

The grant that I get off the EU is for me and it's given to me by the EU and every year the government grabs half that money off me in the form of taxes, it should be tax free. I shouldn't have to pay €1 of tax on that money. People make comparisons to me and people on the dole just because I get a Single Farm Payment grant, the SFP is there to keep small farmers going. I don't give a damn if they get rid of that grant because I'll be able to buy all the neighbouring smaller farms when they inevitably get sold due to the lack of the SFP being there to make them viable.

Where do you think the EU gets it's funding from?

NovemberJersey

Farmings after going through a rough year but usually I'd pay €100k+ in tax so don't be thinking that it's yer tax money in I'm getting, I'm just getting some of my own tax money back basically

marienbad

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Farmings after going through a rough year but usually I'd pay €100k+ in tax so don't be thinking that it's yer tax money in I'm getting, I'm just getting some of my own tax money back basically

So how many 100k are you earning to pay that amount of tax ? and you are still whinging ?

Skommando

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Can't understand how some people are so bitter that they clearly get so upset over some people not being punished enough by taxes… no way would I consider myself a wealthy man but I've no problem with people that are wealthy paying as little tax as possible, they're working hard to provide for their family, they shouldn't be taxed to within an inch of their life so that their money can then be used to provide for other people families just because those people don't earn enough money to provide for themselves

The grant that I get off the EU is for me and it's given to me by the EU and every year the government grabs half that money off me in the form of taxes, it should be tax free. I shouldn't have to pay €1 of tax on that money. People make comparisons to me and people on the dole just because I get a Single Farm Payment grant, the SFP is there to keep small farmers going. I don't give a damn if they get rid of that grant because I'll be able to buy all the neighbouring smaller farms when they inevitably get sold due to the lack of the SFP being there to make them viable.

If your business can't survive without fat handouts from ordinary taxpayers (and most Irish people now have to pay more money into the EU than they get paid out of it) then it's not much of a business. No other ordinary small businesses in Ireland get as many handouts and grants and subsidies.
Famers, always crying, always with the hand out, looking for more.
Your 'business' would last 5 minutes if it wasn't for all the charity your given.

relax carry on

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Farmings after going through a rough year but usually I'd pay €100k+ in tax so don't be thinking that it's yer tax money in I'm getting, I'm just getting some of my own tax money back basically

I'm assuming at 100k in tax you are operating as a limited company. If you are still a sole trader you may wish to get some decent tax advice.

NovemberJersey

relax carry on wrote: »

I'm assuming at 100k in tax you are operating as a limited company. If you are still a sole trader you may wish to get some decent tax advice.

In the process of forming a company at the moment, that's the only hope you have in this country of making a bit of progress, there's surprisingly good tax breaks for forming a company

NovemberJersey

Skommando wrote: »

If your business can't survive without fat handouts from ordinary taxpayers (and most Irish people now have to pay more money into the EU than they get paid out of it) then it's not much of a business. No other ordinary small businesses in Ireland get as many handouts and grants and subsidies.
Famers, always crying, always with the hand out, looking for more.
Your 'business' would last 5 minutes if it wasn't for all the charity your given.

Did you not read the post I made a few above where I clearly pointed out I usually pay €100k+ tax annually so as far as I'm concerned the bit of an EU grant is just a bit of my own money that I'm getting back

Koscielny

It always amazing to hear "it was a tough year for farmers" every single year. Usually by a farmer driving around in a brand new Land Rover.

Poor old farmers, working every hour God sends for no money. Martyrs, the lot of them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Koscielny wrote: »

It always amazing to hear "it was a tough year for farmers" every single year. Usually by a farmer driving around in a brand new Land Rover.

Poor old farmers, working every hour God sends for no money. Martyrs, the lot of them.

You've clearly studied the numbers and should be able to give accurate answers: how much does the average farmer make, what are his costs and how many hours does he need to put in to break even?

realitykeeper

The only thing I want my taxes to be spent on is paying down the national debt. Everything should be privatized.

Skommando

realitykeeper wrote: »

The only thing I want my taxes to be spent on is paying down the national debt. Everything should be privatized.

Would that include the once private debts of the mega wealthy that were nationalised for ordinary people to pay off for them ?

realitykeeper

Skommando wrote: »

Would that include the once private debts of the mega wealthy that were nationalised for ordinary people to pay off for them ?

Absolutely, positively, definitely, Not! The international creditors, the Irish government, their cronies and the presstitutes say the money is now part of the national debt. They also think I will be paying for it. Ha!

kippy

realitykeeper wrote: »

Absolutely, positively, definitely, Not! The international creditors, the Irish government, their cronies and the presstitutes say the money is now part of the national debt. They also think I will be paying for it. Ha!

So you didnt put much thought into your initial statement then.

Yourself isit

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Can't understand how some people are so bitter that they clearly get so upset over some people not being punished enough by taxes… no way would I consider myself a wealthy man but I've no problem with people that are wealthy paying as little tax as possible, they're working hard to provide for their family, they shouldn't be taxed to within an inch of their life so that their money can then be used to provide for other people families just because those people don't earn enough money to provide for themselves

The grant that I get off the EU is for me and it's given to me by the EU and every year the government grabs half that money off me in the form of taxes, it should be tax free. I shouldn't have to pay €1 of tax on that money. People make comparisons to me and people on the dole just because I get a Single Farm Payment grant, the SFP is there to keep small farmers going. I don't give a damn if they get rid of that grant because I'll be able to buy all the neighbouring smaller farms when they inevitably get sold due to the lack of the SFP being there to make them viable.

1) you are a wealthy man. You have a 2.5m asset.
2) the SFP is not just to help small farmers but you. You said yourself milk was sold below cost and you needed the grant.
3) apparently you want a 45k grant and to pay no taxes on that.

Wanderer78

realitykeeper wrote:

The only thing I want my taxes to be spent on is paying down the national debt. Everything should be privatized.

You are aware, neoliberalism is a bust?

Yourself isit

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Did you not read the post I made a few above where I clearly pointed out I usually pay €100k+ tax annually so as far as I'm concerned the bit of an EU grant is just a bit of my own money that I'm getting back

Of you earn enough to pay 100k tax then why are going getting any grant, in good tears or bad?

NovemberJersey

Yourself isit wrote: »

1) you are a wealthy man. You have a 2.5m asset.
2) the SFP is not just to help small farmers but you. You said yourself milk was sold below cost and you needed the grant.
3) apparently you want a 45k grant and to pay no taxes on that.

During an average year at the height of summer I'd have 9,000 litres of milk every day, in '14 I was getting 40c/L so that's €3,600 a day coming into me, trust me I don't need the SFP

And I think because farmers are the backbone of this country we should only have a flat rate of income tax of 20% as we give so many jobs to other people in one form or another anyway, my local Co Op was founded by my father and his equals and now it's one of the biggest flavourings and ingredients companies in the world

NovemberJersey

Yourself isit wrote: »

Of you earn enough to pay 100k tax then why are going getting any grant, in good tears or bad?

We get the grant every year?

GiantTcr

Noddy Nangle wrote: »

I got a pay rise last month of 2000 but after tax I end up getting a net 960. I also get a Christmas bonus from my employer of 1000 but I will only get 460 net often tax. As we live in the country we have two cars but both are pre 2008 so it costs me a 1000 in tax per year.

Yet I am entitled to absolutely nothing from our government. I have to pay 60 every time I want to see a doctor and queue up behind the genuine and not so genuine people who have medical cards. I watch as all those people who are on the dole yet still manage to have a 50" lcd tv and jet off on a big holiday every year. You wonder how they do it. I also watch as TDs claim expenses for travelling to work in the Dail yet I have try tax, insure, fuel, pay for and upkeep two cars that are essential for us to go to work but we can't claim expenses off our tax bill for it. Why ?

Why is it that I seem to work my boll*x off but yet I have nothing. The middle working class pay too much tax and being honest a political party needs to be formed to look after our needs and not the needs of the many wasters in this country. A Donald Trump like figure if you like ( maybe Michael O Leary). Imagine a country where if you work hard you get rewarded and live a decent lifestyle where you might even have a few quid in your pocket.

I realised this years ago. You have an effective tax rate of > 50% for the higher band. I used to see over half of my christmas bonus wiped out too. You do have options.

1. You could quit working and go on the dole.
2. You could work yourself to the bone and earn more cash. (Be aware you might end up using said cash to pay medical bills as a result of over-working).
3. You could work less, earn less and have less at the end of the day. You may end up more content, you may not.
4. You could leave the country and work somewhere else where you will be better off.

You are right to vent. It is grossly unjust the government's ethos in this country towards the hard-working middleclass - lets punish those bast*rds for working. And let's not forget, to top it all off, we have the lowest paid-time-off of all EU member states. Go Ireland! I know I'd take option 4.

Yourself isit

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Economists across the board agree that "exemptions" are a major problem with the tax code. So start with the intent that there are none.

I would suggest we base the tax code on a simple flat tax with negative income tax for individuals based on the requirements.

I would start before that by implementing a 10% corporation tax, calculating the maximum potential return on that and then calculating the remainder from there.

Still uncosted.

A negative income tax isn't necessarily a bad idea - it's not too different from a UBI but the devil is in the details. What is the level you want to reach. A minimum wage? The median earned income?

It smells a bit like a subsidy for low pay. The distortions would be in the pay offered to the unskilled by businesses. After all they can offer, and are incentivised to offer as little as possible since the government is making up the rest. As low as zero in fact. This would also need minimum wage legislation and the lower that is set the higher the NI subsidy.

I have other questions but let's answer that one first.

Yourself isit

NovemberJersey wrote: »

We get the grant every year?

No idea. I get none any year.

Yourself isit

NovemberJersey wrote: »

During an average year at the height of summer I'd have 9,000 litres of milk every day, in '14 I was getting 40c/L so that's €3,600 a day coming into me, trust me I don't need the SFP

And I think because farmers are the backbone of this country we should only have a flat rate of income tax of 20% as we give so many jobs to other people in one form or another anyway, my local Co Op was founded by my father and his equals and now it's one of the biggest flavourings and ingredients companies in the world

Hang on do you get the subsidy or not. Earlier on in the thread you were saying the cost of the production of the milk was higher than the price to sell it. Which is it?

NovemberJersey

Yourself isit wrote: »

No idea. I get none any year.

What I meant was that I do get my €47,000 grant every year regardless of how farming is going, if you bought a farm you'd be able to get one too

NovemberJersey

Yourself isit wrote: »

Hang on do you get the subsidy or not. Earlier on in the thread you were saying the cost of the production of the milk was higher than the price to sell it. Which is it?

We get the grant every year. Milk price crashed this year, it was just a blip. Can you not understand the price we get paid for milk changes? This year many farmers were producing it at below cost price, I was breaking even from the milk side of my business but was still making money out of the other aspects of my farm business

Professor Moriarty

NovemberJersey wrote: »

What I meant was that I do get my €47,000 grant every year regardless of how farming is going, if you bought a farm you'd be able to get one too

I'm beginning to think you're a wind up. Nobody could possibly so unaware of other citizens' lives.

Yourself isit

NovemberJersey wrote: »

We get the grant every year. Milk price crashed this year, it was just a blip. Can you not understand the price we get paid for milk changes? This year many farmers were producing it at below cost price, I was breaking even from the milk side of my business but was still making money out of the other aspects of my farm business

So why am I paying for your subsidy?

NovemberJersey

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'm beginning to think you're a wind up. Nobody could possibly so unaware of other citizens' lives.

You could buy a farm for the same price as a house and still get a decent sized grant out of it each year, it's not anything insanely unattainable

NovemberJersey

Yourself isit wrote: »

So why am I paying for your subsidy?

I pay an awful lot more tax than you do regardless of my grant so I don't think I owe you anything

Yourself isit

NovemberJersey wrote: »

I pay an awful lot more tax than you do regardless of my grant so I don't think I owe you anything

You owe me the subsidy.

If you earn enough to pay so much tax then why any subsidy? You came into this thread demanding that child allowance be reduced for middle class people (paying 50% marginal). Yet you believe you have a right to a grant for just owning a farm? And beyond that that grant should be taxed at zero per cent. And any tax after that you could pay on wealth - inheritance or CGT should be zero?

Libertarianism for farmers. Anyway I will bow out if this side thread. More interested in the general ideas about how a flat tax or NI could ever work.

Professor Moriarty

NovemberJersey wrote: »

You could buy a farm for the same price as a house and still get a decent sized grant out of it each year, it's not anything insanely unattainable

No thanks. I'd rather not buy a business, that is unsustainable due to insufficient assets, in order to leech a grant out of my fellow citizens.

NovemberJersey

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

No thanks. I'd rather not buy a business, that is unsustainable due to insufficient assets, in order to leech a grant out of my fellow citizens.

Read the above posts, one aspect of my business had 1 bad year just there - that doesn't make it unsustainable, the €47,000 grant isn't that much money relatively speaking, a tractor can easily cost €90k

Professor Moriarty

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Read the above posts, one aspect of my business had 1 bad year just there - that doesn't make it unsustainable, the €47,000 grant isn't that much money relatively speaking, a tractor can easily cost €90k

I was responding to your suggestion that I buy a farm for the price of a decent house in order to get a grant. You claim to own a farm worth 2500000 euros. Nah, you definitely are a wind up.

NovemberJersey

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I was responding to your suggestion that I buy a farm for the price of a decent house in order to get a grant. You claim to own a farm worth 2500000 euros. Nah, you definitely are a wind up.

I think your trying to wind me up with the way how you fail to understand anything I say to you, you could buy a farm for €400,000 and still get a good sized SFP grant out of that or is €400,000 also in insultingly large amount of money to you?

Professor Moriarty

NovemberJersey wrote: »

I think your trying to wind me up with the way how you fail to understand anything I say to you, you could buy a farm for €400,000 and still get a good sized SFP grant out of that or is €400,000 also in insultingly large amount of money to you?

How much take home pay, excluding grants, from a 400k farm?

NovemberJersey

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

How much take home pay, excluding grants, from a 400k farm?

I'm not giving you a smart answer but there's a million different variables - a farm of that size would typically be a part time thing, you'd still have your own job then… 2 people could have the exact same farms, one could end up on the side of the road with nothing, another one could end up a millionaire, it's a lot to do with how you run your business

Professor Moriarty

NovemberJersey wrote: »

I'm not giving you a smart answer but there's a million different variables - a farm of that size would typically be a part time thing, you'd still have your own job then… 2 people could have the exact same farms, one could end up on the side of the road with nothing, another one could end up a millionaire, it's a lot to do with how you run your business

OK so I can't make a living. How much could I make out of grants?

NovemberJersey

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

OK so I can't make a living. How much could I make out of grants?

Of course you could make a living but a farm that size wouldn't take up much of your time so why not work a regular job aswell… the size of the grant depends entirely on the previous owners output in the early 2000's, the figures aren't based off here and now

Professor Moriarty

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Of course you could make a living but a farm that size wouldn't take up much of your time so why not work a regular job aswell… the size of the grant depends entirely on the previous owners output in the early 2000's, the figures aren't based off here and now

So why would you suggest that I buy a farm for 400k when you can't tell me what I might earn and what grants are available?

Donal55

It would be nice to be able to avail of some dental work for tax and prsi paid. As it is, one free check up per year is a disgrace.

NovemberJersey

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So why would you suggest that I buy a farm for 400k when you can't tell me what I might earn and what grants are available?

It just sounds like your upset over me getting a grant tbh

marienbad

NovemberJersey wrote: »

It just sounds like your upset over me getting a grant tbh

and you were upset over others getting children's allowance etc . Why one law for you and a different one for everybody else .

Professor Moriarty

NovemberJersey wrote: »

It just sounds like your upset over me getting a grant tbh

Nope. I just think it grossly unjust and immoral that a person with an asset worth 2500000 gets subsidised when he can't make a living out of his asset

Sarn

Donal55 wrote: »

It would be nice to be able to avail of some dental work for tax and prsi paid. As it is, one free check up per year is a disgrace.

FYI. Dental benefit will be expanded to include an annual free scale and polish and optical benefit will include the option of either free glasses or a contribution of €42 towards the cost of glasses (October 2017).

Not much, but a little better.

NovemberJersey

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Nope. I just think it grossly unjust and immoral that a person with an asset worth 2500000 gets subsidised when he can't make a living out of his asset

Why do you keep trying to convince yourself I'm not making a living out of my farm? Read through my other posts on my profile, I initially set up my boards account to discuss the possibility of setting up a company for myself because I'm paying too much tax because of my large profits, go have a look on my profile if you think I'm such a compulsive liar