I'm sick to death of being taxed to death !

maninasia

Very often it's....laziness.

kippy

MPFGLB wrote: »

yeah thay all get taxed hard :rolleyes:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/30/eu-apple-ireland-tax-ruling-q-and-a


Secondly my point is that in comparison to PAYE workers a limited company director can pays less tax fact ...not hearsay . I didn't say they didnlt pay tax ...

Again you are comparing three very different entities.
Apple pay tax outside of coorporation tax.
A company director is not the same as a paye worker for numerous reasons.
These scenarios would be the same or similiar in various parts of the world...different entities getting treated different for tax purposes.

elastico

MPFGLB wrote: »

yeah thay all get taxed hard :rolleyes:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/30/eu-apple-ireland-tax-ruling-q-and-a


Secondly my point is that in comparison to PAYE workers a limited company director can pays less tax fact ...not hearsay . I didn't say they didnlt pay tax ...

You are talking through your hat. Company directors pay the same income tax as anybody else.

Profits after taxes pay 12.5% corporation tax and the money is retained in the company, anything the director withdraws is taxed in full.

Wheeliebin30

MPFGLB wrote: »

I was not making a comparison ...I was using how you pay less tax with a limited company ..and you do.... as an indication that there are ways for companies to pay less ...then I went down this tit for tat discussion as you object to my posts/views etc

Let stop this as we are at odds and not on the same page ...so lets leave it

You don't get it.

In a limited company you are a director but still paid the same as a worker thus paying tax like everyone else.

The expenses you are going on about are wholly incurred through the business.

So diesel, van tax or insurance, or say tools for a job etc.

It's not for personal stuff.

Believe me avoiding tax and gaining through a limited company does not happen.

Any money you try take out even on profits is taxed at the same rate as everyone else.

Wanderer78

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

You don't get it.

In a limited company you are a director but still paid the same as a worker thus paying tax like everyone else.

The expenses you are going on about are wholly incurred through the business.

So diesel, van tax or insurance, or say tools for a job etc.

It's not for personal stuff.

Believe me avoiding tax and gaining through a limited company does not happen.

Any money you try take out even on profits is taxed at the same rate as everyone else.

whats the story with tax on share options?

elastico

Wanderer78 wrote: »

whats the story with tax on share options?

Not sure what you are referring to?

If you own all the shares already what options are available!

Wanderer78

elastico wrote: »

Not sure what you are referring to?

If you own all the shares already what options are available!

an old boss of mine in the corporate sector once told me(actually a classroom of people), that the salary of corporate executives is nothing compared to their share options, that this is the bulk of their pay. im just wondering what the story is with tax on share options? thanks

elastico

Wanderer78 wrote: »

an old boss of mine in the corporate sector once told me(actually a classroom of people), that the salary of corporate executives is nothing compared to their share options, that this is the bulk of their pay. im just wondering what the story is with tax on share options? thanks

in that case he is a paye worker and whatever tax is charge on share option applies to all paye workers.

I was responding to somebody who was referring to owner directors

Wanderer78

elastico wrote: »

in that case he is a paye worker and whatever tax is charge on share option applies to all paye workers.

I was responding to somebody who was referring to owner directors

i suspect a lot of these corporate executives pay little or no tax on their share options but i could be wrong, maybe another member may clear that up for me? thanks

Mr. teddywinkles

rickfisher1988 wrote: »

While I have a certain amount of sympathy for the OP and some of the posts that follow, it is a seeming paradox that the very folks who complain about being the "squeezed middle" and the "coping class" have the financial wherewithal to pay for mortgages in leafy suburbs; drive two large cars, usually BMWs, Mercs, etc.; fill their shopping trolleys in M&S every week with goodies and wine; send their kids to elite schools; vacation at least twice a year; have a least one meal out a week. All the while, complaining about being screwed, complaining about the unemployed, sick, homeless, destitute, etc.

It is no coincidence that the very people who make these complaints direct their scorn at the bottom of society rather than at the very top. I think that's interesting...

They pay their wages so they wont

kippy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i suspect a lot of these corporate executives pay little or no tax on their share options but i could be wrong, maybe another member may clear that up for me? thanks

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it72.pdf
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/tax_on_savings_and_investments/employee_share_option_schemes.html
Far from tax free

kippy

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

They pay their wages so they wont

Who do people deem to be "the top" of society?

Wanderer78

kippy wrote: »

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it72.pdf

Far from tax free

thank you but im more interested in global tax regimes on share options as i suspect most high level corporate executives are not resident in ireland. i ll have a peak though.

Wanderer78

kippy wrote: »

Who do people deem to be "the top" of society?

in financial terms, billionaire oligarchs

kippy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

thank you but im more interested in global tax regimes on share options as i suspect most high level corporate executives are not resident in ireland. i ll have a peak though.

Sorry, that wasn't immediately clear.
Corporate executives is a very broad term.

Wanderer78

kippy wrote: »

Sorry, that wasn't immediately clear.
Corporate executives is a very broad term.

apologies my fault but thank you for the links

kippy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

in financial terms, billionaire oligarchs

There are folks above saying people should focus on the top of society rather than the bottom when it comes to fair shares.
There aren't many billionaire oligarchs in the world and even fewer working out of Ireland

Wanderer78

kippy wrote: »

There are folks above saying people should focus on the top of society rather than the bottom when it comes to fair shares.
There aren't many billionaire oligarchs in the world.

there is a major problem with wealth distribution though, we re truly need to focus on the systems that are allowing this to happen. its very complex though

Avatar MIA

kippy wrote: »

There are ways for limited companies to pay less tax than an individual.
Makes no sense.

This has been answered already, but a company owner can often pay more tax. 12.5% on profits and PAYE on their salary.

The only expenses they can incur is the same as an employee of the company, they have to be incurred (expenses) and then reimbursed.

The vast majority of companies are small companies in Ireland and don't pay dividends. Large companies do for practical reasons, but there is no tax advantage (I'm ignoring the effect on Share Values for simplification).

MPFGLB wrote: »

Perscription charges are high in Ireland...You woulthink for long term conditions there would be a cap or something

There is. A person pays a monthly maximum in Ireland... http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/drugs_and_medicines/drugs_payment_scheme.html

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i suspect a lot of these corporate executives pay little or no tax on their share options but i could be wrong, maybe another member may clear that up for me? thanks

Share options are just that. An option to buy shares at a particular price. In Ireland these are taxed. Full PAYE, USC, PRSI is paid on the gain when exercised.


Is the UK cheaper than Ireland? Yes, there is significant economy of scale. Look at the Light signature map of Ireland compared to Great Britain on the BBC news. The population difference is huge.

Ireland may one day be far more populated, and far more multi-cultural. I imagine it will be. That will bring benefits and disadvantages.

For me I'd rather live in Ireland, but that's because that's where my roots and family live. I know I'm paying more for services and Health care isn't free for all. However, as I can afford to pay for Health insurance for myself and family I don't think I'm disadvantaged compared to someone relying on the NHS.

Curiously, the average lifespan in the ROI is not insignificantly higher than in NHS NI. Strange that one.

Skommando

Pkiernan wrote: »

Best Country in the world to be a lazy ****ing layabout in.

or a corrupt banker, corrupt developer, corrupt politician, bondholder, but you won't find the cowards in this country saying anything about them.

kippy wrote: »

Who do people deem to be "the top" of society?

In Ireland it's the likes of Quinn, Drumm, Dunne, Bertie Ahern, Magnier, O'Brien etc. you know all the wealthy in Ireland that don't pay any taxes, while we and our grandchildren pay their private debts off for them.

Wheeliebin30

Skommando wrote: »

or a corrupt banker, corrupt developer, corrupt politician, bondholder, but you won't find the cowards in this country complaining about them.

Of course you will. Everyday we hear it.

It's not an excuse for people to leech off others though.

lawred2

MPFGLB wrote: »

Sol ets say you have a limited company like many I know...

You can have 'sales' of £100 k per year

You can set your salary low, claims expenses, and dividends ....you could pay half or a third of what a PAYE employee pays..

Now take that up a notch to large company profits, very large farmers ( lots of them pay littel if any tax) and rich with investemnts that give income in the 100Ks

There are many ways the rich avoid tax ....

Dividends are subject to all income taxes just like all other income.

And are paid out after corporation tax has been paid from the 'profits'.. So if you wanted to avoid tax, dividends are one of the worst ways to go about it.

Skommando

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Of course you will. Everyday we hear it.

It's not an excuse for people to leech off others though.

You mean like they do, and the cowardly ignore it ?

Touchee

MPFGLB wrote: »

You can claim epenses and avoid tax through dividends and pay alot into a pension pot tha will be tax free later ....not the same for PAYE

I know this as my other half has one .....

You do know that you, as an individual pay tax on Dividends?

Also, when a company makes a dividend payment, this is not allowed as an expense in the accounts.

I really don't follow what you are trying to prove with these dividends.

Oodoov

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Of course you will. Everyday we hear it.

It's not an excuse for people to leech off others though.

Course it's not but you lead by example. A lot of these people see the likes of Da Bert and others (i won't mention for legal reasons) pulling fast ones and they think "fcuk it i'll do as i please". They feel hopeless when right before their eyes they witness vast amounts of corruption and a media and political system built up to defend the elite and demonize them.

Monkey see, monkey do.

dr.fuzzenstein

Yourself isit wrote: »

It seems to me like the HSE needs a root and branch reform.

That already happened. It used to be the Health Board. Then one day they replaced the HB sign with one that says HSE. Same offices, same people, doing the same thing under a different name.
That is a root an branch reform in Ireland. Because all the staff is protected and no one can be fired and all the structures are protected by Union and crony interests, that's as good as it gets.
The next root and branch reform (I laugh! Ha!) will be along those same lines. Different sign, same sh*t. Because structures are so encrusted and protected, they can't be changed and the typical Irish politician doesn't want to make waves with interest groups and Unions, so nothing will ever change. Except waiting lists getting longer, A&E's getting more crowded and service getting ever more sh*tty.
All those strikes and protests in connection with the healthcare system in Ireland are always fronted by doctors, nurses and other front-line staff, because all those thousands and thousands of useless chair-farters (as we call them in Germany) are keeping very, very quiet and hoping that no-one will notice them and the fact that they are a holy cow far, far overdue for slaughter. Probably with a few threats to politicians in the background of total mayhem should any of them dare to unzip their fly whilst standing in front of their gilded soup-bowl.
It's a hangover from the 80's, where landing a cushy number in the public service was a posh way to be on the dole, if mammy and daddy knew the right people to get you pulled aboard. The rest were on the dole or fcuked off abroad.

TL/DR:
The real issue is a vast army of useless admin people that badly needs to be trimmed back and modernized and no politician ever will have the balls to tackle the problem.

RayCun

FortySeven wrote: »

I can rent a nice two bedroom apartment for 450 a month
...
In Ireland I made roughly the same in euros. Cheapest 2 bed apartment was 900 a month,

Where in Ireland and where in the UK?

FortySeven

RayCun wrote: »

Where in Ireland and where in the UK?

Galway and Tayside.

Phoebas

Skommando wrote: »

or a corrupt banker, corrupt developer, corrupt politician, bondholder, but you won't find the cowards in this country saying anything about them.

Are bondholders bad now?
I'm a bondholder, but up to now I didn't see the harm in it.

FortySeven

Phoebas wrote: »

Are bondholders bad now?
I'm a bondholder, but up to now I didn't see the harm in it.

You know well he/she means the unsecured bondholders who took a gamble yet we're paid even though they should have lost.

Phoebas

FortySeven wrote: »

You know well he/she means the unsecured bondholders who took a gamble yet we're paid even though they should have lost.

I presume you mean the unsecured bondholder in the bailed out banks (that's not me, so I guess I'm off the hook).

I thought those guys did take a haircut, and it was only the secured, senior bondholders who got bailed out- like the depositors? Maybe not. Anyway, those bondholder (and depositors) may have been lucky, but it doesn't mean they did anything wrong, so it seems odd to lump them in with corrupt politicians and the like.

FortySeven

Phoebas wrote: »

I presume you mean the unsecured bondholder in the bailed out banks (that's not me, so I guess I'm off the hook).

I thought those guys did take a haircut, and it was only the secured, senior bondholders who got bailed out- like the depositors? Maybe not. Anyway, those bondholder (and depositors) may have been lucky, but it doesn't mean they did anything wrong, so it seems odd to lump them in with corrupt politicians and the like.

I actually agree the bondholders did nothing wrong. Who wouldn't take an offered refund when the house zero came up.

Government were firmly in the wrong. They made the decision. (If we pretend the banks weren't really pulling the strings)

mockingjay

Noddy Nangle wrote: »

I got a pay rise last month of 2000 but after tax I end up getting a net 960. I also get a Christmas bonus from my employer of 1000 but I will only get 460 net often tax. As we live in the country we have two cars but both are pre 2008 so it costs me a 1000 in tax per year.

Yet I am entitled to absolutely nothing from our government. I have to pay 60 every time I want to see a doctor and queue up behind the genuine and not so genuine people who have medical cards. I watch as all those people who are on the dole yet still manage to have a 50" lcd tv and jet off on a big holiday every year. You wonder how they do it. I also watch as TDs claim expenses for travelling to work in the Dail yet I have try tax, insure, fuel, pay for and upkeep two cars that are essential for us to go to work but we can't claim expenses off our tax bill for it. Why ?

Why is it that I seem to work my boll*x off but yet I have nothing. The middle working class pay too much tax and being honest a political party needs to be formed to look after our needs and not the needs of the many wasters in this country. A Donald Trump like figure if you like ( maybe Michael O Leary). Imagine a country where if you work hard you get rewarded and live a decent lifestyle where you might even have a few quid in your pocket.

I have to agree with you, feeling exactly the same - leaving two kids at 6.50am in the mornings and still have very little to show for it. Everywhere I turn it's bills, mortgage, tolls, and more bills. As soon as a company suffers a loss, they raise their prices, people cut back - heat/post/electricity/insurances and to recoup the shortfall companies seem to raise their prices higher.... at this stage we have completely cut out our social life or any treats. I see The Journal are reporting that people are shopping in the North/UK - and I completely understand why: http://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-state-for-christmas-shopping-3119156-Dec2016/

Their prices are more competitive, we can buy items that are beyond our reach in Ireland, we can save money (which will of course go towards the mortgage) - of course I want the jobs to stay in Ireland, and of course I'd like to shop local - but I simply can't afford to. Everyone is trying to maximise their profits and the people are searching for other options. Keep the prices keen and we won't need to seek alternative sources. The Government don't seem to be listening, they'll cream off the top no matter how the smaller man is suffering. My christmas party is on tonight, but I can't even afford to got to that - would have to pay €35 towards the meal - taxi in, taxi home, drinks - €100 out of my budget does impact on the household budget - so saving a few Euro here and there does matter. You'd swear we all had this pot of gold at home that we were topping up through these savings - well not here!

Geuze

maninasia wrote: »

There's no dole if self employed although there is talk of introducing it.

This myth is spread by poor journalists.

Self-employed people are perfectly entitled to apply for JSA = dole, the same as any other unemployed person.

It's JSB social insurance unemployment benefit that self-employed people can't get, as they don't pay enough PRSI.

lawred2

Geuze wrote: »

This myth is spread by poor journalists.

Self-employed people are perfectly entitled to apply for JSA = dole, the same as any other unemployed person.

It's JSB social insurance unemployment benefit that self-employed people can't get, as they don't pay enough PRSI.

They pay a reduced rate of prsi. Many will still pay more prsi in real terms than many employed people.

L1011

FortySeven wrote: »

You know well he/she means the unsecured bondholders who took a gamble yet we're paid even though they should have lost.

If you have a private pension, there's a chance it had lower tier bonds.

FortySeven

L1011 wrote: »

If you have a private pension, there's a chance it had lower tier bonds.

I don't, pensions are a mugs game. Plundered persistently one way or another. I've seen plenty people get stung by pensions.

Look after your own retirement. Save, invest. Have assets.

maninasia

You can get stung either way.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/big-loss-on-aib-bank-investment-250-shares-now-equal-one-1.2892527

BoatMad

MPFGLB wrote: »

You can claim epenses and avoid tax through dividends and pay alot into a pension pot tha will be tax free later ....not the same for PAYE

I know this as my other half has one .....

not legally you cant , dividends are teated as income , and taxed exactly the same way . Was changed in the 80s

employees can pay into a pension pot tax free, too

BoatMad

MPFGLB wrote: »

Sol ets say you have a limited company like many I know...

You can have 'sales' of £100 k per year

You can set your salary low, claims expenses, and dividends ....you could pay half or a third of what a PAYE employee pays..

Now take that up a notch to large company profits, very large farmers ( lots of them pay littel if any tax) and rich with investemnts that give income in the 100Ks

There are many ways the rich avoid tax ....

total BS, as a self employed or proprietary company director, you make a form 11 return, you pay income tax on all incomes derived from any source, dividends , etc

BoatMad

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Ah yeah sure the bankers do it so it's grand.

Why can't we talk about one at a time instead of bringing the other into it?

The bankers debt was 63 billion.

In 2 years our welfare Bill would equal that.

bank debt is not 63 million, monies in AIB and BoI are shares and have value and will ultimately return a bonus to the taxpayer

BoatMad

As soon as a company suffers a loss, they raise their prices, people cut back

thats not how companies react, because there is very limited room, as soon as you raise prices, you contract and you cant keep doing this forever . sooner then later you go bust.

Thats why we regularly have grocery price wars, as companies attempt to recover makes share

BoatMad

This myth is spread by poor journalists.

Self-employed people are perfectly entitled to apply for JSA = dole, the same as any other unemployed person.

It's JSB social insurance unemployment benefit that self-employed people can't get, as they don't pay enough PRSI.

even if they wanted to pay Class A , PRSI , they are now legally prevented from doing so .

BoatMad

Originally Posted by MPFGLB View Post
yeah thay all get taxed hard
https://www.theguardian.com/business...ruling-q-and-a


Secondly my point is that in comparison to PAYE workers a limited company director can pays less tax fact ...not hearsay . I didn't say they didnlt pay tax ...

In Ireland a limited company proprietary director on exactly the same salary as a worker, pays MORE tax - FACT, as the PAYE allowance is not available to such directors, even yjoiugh ll his or her salaries is paid through the PAYE system , exactly like the workers of that company

BoatMad

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i suspect a lot of these corporate executives pay little or no tax on their share options but i could be wrong, maybe another member may clear that up for me? thanks

actually in ireland the tax system penalises share options, as income tax must be paid immediately on the granting of such options, even though any monetary gain might be years hence.

Its not a method used in Ireland to enumerate directors . in the main. employee ESOP schemes are very complex in ireland and fraught with all sorts of issues

BoatMad

Wanderer78 wrote: »

there is a major problem with wealth distribution though, we re truly need to focus on the systems that are allowing this to happen. its very complex though

given the lowest incomes in ireland pay virtually no tax ( compared to the countries , we are the second lowest in the OCED) , I cant see how you'd do even more wealth distribution , short of just taking things from people forcefully

BoatMad

In Ireland it's the likes of Quinn, Drumm, Dunne, Bertie Ahern, Magnier, O'Brien etc. you know all the wealthy in Ireland that don't pay any taxes, while we and our grandchildren pay their private debts off for them.

Not sure what Quinn and Drumm etc have to do with it, They incurred a business failure, thats not a crime in itself, the state decided then to guarantee these banks, hence the debt . Its not an offence to have a business fail

lawred2

Wanderer78 wrote: »

there is a major problem with wealth distribution though, we re truly need to focus on the systems that are allowing this to happen. its very complex though

well you could always burn people out of their homes

lawred2

FortySeven wrote: »

Phoebas wrote: »

Are bondholders bad now?
I'm a bondholder, but up to now I didn't see the harm in it.

You know well he/she means the unsecured bondholders who took a gamble yet we're paid even though they should have lost.

How is that a bondholder's fault?

FortySeven

lawred2 wrote: »

How is that a bondholder's fault?

I don't believe I said it was. The government clearly to blame here, bondholders just did what anyone would do.

Of course, can we really blame the government listening to the scaremongering of the banks at the time?

The sky is falling!