Pope will vist Ireland in 2018(mod warning in Op)

_Kaiser_

road_high wrote: »

Why?

Because [stereotype] most of the people who would be interested in seeing the Pope would be older rural dwellers so if they're all in Dublin for the day/weekend there'll be great deals in local hotels [/stereotype]

RayM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Because [stereotype] most of the people who would be interested in seeing the Pope would be older rural dwellers so if they're all in Dublin for the day/weekend there'll be great deals in local hotels [/stereotype]

We can all head down from Dublin to burgle their houses too.

Bubbaclaus

RobertKK wrote: »

Negative people will only look negatively and be blind to the reality

Interesting that you mention 'blind to the reality', considering the amount of holy joes ignoring the atrocities of the Catholic Church and looking forward to the visit of the head of a pedophile ring.

zuutroy

It's embarrassing for humanity that this is headline news in 2016.

padd b1975

August 2018.....Almost two years of beautiful atheist whinging, what a time to be alive.

keeponhurling

murpho999 wrote: »

How will it be a great time for the country? It's not 1979 anymore.

The practising catholics can enjoy it if they wish but the majority of people who are lapsed catholics will not care.

That's how it should be, and how I hope it is.

However there is often a high level of intolerence at times of other people's views.
"I don't agree with him or his religion, therefore he shouldn't be allowed in the country" type people.
Live and let live, I say.

Bubbaclaus

padd b1975 wrote: »

August 2018.....Almost two years of beautiful atheist whinging, what a time to be alive.

I always found it interesting how not entertaining a cult filled with pedophiles and various forms of abuse is considered "atheist whinging".

Is child abuse not a major issue for theists or something? Because that is what you are implying.

seamus

road_high wrote: »

Why?

There'll be a clamour to get with jizz shot of the Pope, so hotels in Dublin and surrounding counties will be booked out. But further off lands like Killarney and Donegal will be quieter than usual as locals and tourists opt to make the pilgrimage to Dublin.

They won't be dead, but far quieter than you'd expect on an August weekend.

RobertKK

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Interesting that you mention 'blind to the reality', considering the amount of holy joes ignoring the atrocities of the Catholic Church and looking forward to the visit of the head of a pedophile ring.

Most people are not blind to reality.
You talk as if it was 20 years ago, we can live in past realities if we want. But like how times have changed since 1979, the church has not stood still either.
No one is ignoring anything.

Living ones life with bitterness based on the past is not a healthy way to live, most can see there has been change and have moved on, living in the past and not moving on is just not good mentally for anyone.

sullivlo

RobertKK wrote: »

Most people are not blind to reality.
You talk as if it was 20 years ago, we can live in past realities if we want. But like how times have changed since 1979, the church has not stood still either.
No one is ignoring anything.

Living ones life with bitterness based on the past is not a healthy way to live, most can see there has been change and have moved on, living in the past and not moving on is just not good mentally for anyone.

Says you who idolises a guy who died 2000 years ago

eviltwin

I'm not Catholic so not bothered, not exactly thrilled he's coming but can see why it would be a big deal to some people. I just hope he makes a proper sincere apology for the way religion has hurt a lot of people. I know we've moved on but it's needed and would help a lot of the victims.

Jimmy Bottlehead

RobertKK wrote: »

Most people are not blind to reality.
You talk as if it was 20 years ago, we can live in past realities if we want. But like how times have changed since 1979, the church has not stood still either.
No one is ignoring anything.

Living ones life with bitterness based on the past is not a healthy way to live, most can see there has been change and have moved on, living in the past and not moving on is just not good mentally for anyone.

Actually, not much has changed. Kiddy fiddling still has a blind eye turned to it, as per Catholic rules:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/10/catholic-bishops-not-obliged-report-clerical-child-abuse-vatican-says

So yeah. Good old Catholic Church.

blacklilly

Amazing how many people are up in arms about this.

Clerical child sexual abuse accounts for a tiny % of all sexual abuse perpetrated. This fact does not lessen the horrific abuse these victims suffered in any way. However would you all be so quick to protest at a fathers day event or a family event, given that sexual abuse is by and large carried out by family members or people known to the victim? And also covered up by many families.
Lets all get real here for a second, whilst an apology is needed, lets all continue to keep our heads in the sand that these terrible abuses are being carried out to young vulnerable children by relatives and people known to them every day of the week in this country.

I will personally not go to see the pope at whatever event is organised as I'm not religious but for those that are, let them enjoy it.

The Backwards Man

If he comes to Derry I'll make a few quid out of him, God bless him

If he doesn't I'll probably be down money that week, the sky fairy loving ballbag.

Allinall

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

How often do you see an actual crowd of a million people in a field?

You must never have been to the Tubbercurry show when they have the tractor reversing competition.

RobertKK

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Actually, not much has changed. Kiddy fiddling still has a blind eye turned to it, as per Catholic rules:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/10/catholic-bishops-not-obliged-report-clerical-child-abuse-vatican-says

So yeah. Good old Catholic Church.

Maybe if you read all the report from the Guardian...

Indeed, a church official familiar with the commission on abuse said it was the committee’s position that reporting abuse to civil authorities was a “moral obligation, whether the civil law requires it or not”. The official said the committee would be involved in future training efforts.

IamtheWalrus

Not in my name.

ThisRegard

blacklilly wrote: »

Clerical child sexual abuse accounts for a tiny % of all sexual abuse perpetrated.

What are the ratios?

And you're glossing over how it was covered up, how the state was hindered in its investigations, and how they never ended up paying what they were asked to pay in compensation.

seamus

blacklilly wrote: »

Clerical child sexual abuse accounts for a tiny % of all sexual abuse perpetrated. This fact does not lessen the horrific abuse these victims suffered in any way. However would you all be so quick to protest at a fathers day event or a family event, given that sexual abuse is by and large carried out by family members or people known to the victim? And also covered up by many families.

The issue is not the fact that the clergy did it, it's the fact the Catholic Church knowingly aided & abetted abusers and murderers for decades, and when called to account for it, blocked and avoided and fought back. And took many years to even acknowledge they had done anything wrong.

They interfered in the investigation of sexual abuse, being involved in setting up spanish-inquisition style interrogations of victims in an attempt to discredit and intimidate them.

The Catholic Church still knowingly hides child abusers in its ranks and its own rules, recently updated, continue to shelter child abusers by endorsing its members to break the law and put children in danger.

That's why people hate the Catholic Church.

ectoraige

blacklilly wrote: »

However would you all be so quick to protest at a fathers day event or a family event, given that sexual abuse is by and large carried out by family members or people known to the victim?

If the event was held by an organisation who actively and knowingly *chose* to protect paedophiles instead of children, then yes, I would equally oppose it.

At least the visit is outside of school term, less opportunity for the schools to make a big deal about it.

Glenster

blacklilly wrote: »

Clerical child sexual abuse accounts for a tiny % of all sexual abuse perpetrated. This fact does not lessen the horrific abuse these victims suffered in any way. However would you all be so quick to protest at a fathers day event or a family event, given that sexual abuse is by and large carried out by family members or people known to the victim? And also covered up by many families.

The issue isn't the proportion of priests that are paedophiles. The issue is that the organisation that they are part of actively covered up this abuse for as far as records go back and still refuse to participate fully in inquiries into the abuse and cover up.

And Pope Francis, the undisputed head of the church, a head of state with powers greater than any other head of state in the world, whose word is literally canon law, has not made any meaningful stride toward rectifying the situation. That's why people don't want him here.

Glenster

Ouch blacklily.

Pretty uniform response.

RobertKK

Pope Francis as Pope years ago at this stage talking to victims of abuse: “Before God and his people I express my sorrow for the sins and grave crimes of clerical sexual abuse committed against you. And I humbly ask forgiveness,” he said at a private mass this morning at the Vatican. He also apologised for “the sins of omission on the part of Church leaders”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-apologises-to-victims-of-clerical-sexual-abuse-scandal-and-asks-for-forgiveness-9590647.html

The Pope did apologise but people want an apology, as I said, people living in the past, looking for something the Pope has done, and will continue to do to victims of sexual abuse.

blacklilly

seamus wrote: »

The issue is not the fact that the clergy did it, it's the fact the Catholic Church knowingly aided & abetted abusers and murderers for decades, and when called to account for it, blocked and avoided and fought back.

The Catholic Church still knowingly hides child abusers in its ranks and its own rules, recently updated, continue to shelter child abusers by endorsing its members to break the law and put children in danger.

That's why people hate the Catholic Church.

And why don't we as a society hate families? Thousands of families have hidden and aided sexual abuse. I absolutely agree that anyone who abuses needs to be held accountable for their actions and anyone who covers it up needs to be dealt with also. But don't think this is an issue exclusive to the catholic church. In fact, we are seeing that sexual abuse is becoming endemic is many organisations/groups etc.

My point is, people are so quick to jump on the anti church bandwagon yet don't want to acknowledge that sexual abuse is being perpetrated by fathers, uncles, brothers and less so by mothers, aunts and sisters every day of the week in this country.

blacklilly

Glenster wrote: »

Ouch blacklily.

Pretty uniform response.

Don't worry, reading posts online don't generally hurt me but I'll carry a plaster with me in future......just in case

RobertKK

Glenster wrote: »

The issue isn't the proportion of priests that are paedophiles. The issue is that the organisation that they are part of actively covered up this abuse for as far as records go back and still refuse to participate fully in inquiries into the abuse and cover up.

And Pope Francis, the undisputed head of the church, a head of state with powers greater than any other head of state in the world, whose word is literally canon law, has not made any meaningful stride toward rectifying the situation. That's why people don't want him here.

That is totally false.

One of the two Irish abuse victims to meet Francis, Marie Kane, 43, told RTE’s News at One that the Pope was “very humble man, very warm” which made it “very easy to sit and to talk”. She said: “It was important for me to explain from a survivor’s point of view that it’s important, the Church needs to change. It can’t have certain cardinals in power... that covered up abuse and silenced victims. It’s very hard to think you could go back into a Church that still has these people in power.”
Ms Kane told The Irish Times that she asked Francis to remove Cardinal Sean Brady as Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland due to his handling of a 1975 clerical child-abuse inquiry into the paedophile Father Brendan Smyth. Allegations were not reported to police and Smyth continued to abuse children before being jailed in 1994.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-apologises-to-victims-of-clerical-sexual-abuse-scandal-and-asks-for-forgiveness-9590647.html

Cardinal Brady was replaced by Pope Francis.

Glenster

RobertKK wrote: »

Pope Francis as Pope years ago at this stage talking to victims of abuse: “Before God and his people I express my sorrow for the sins and grave crimes of clerical sexual abuse committed against you. And I humbly ask forgiveness,” he said at a private mass this morning at the Vatican. He also apologised for “the sins of omission on the part of Church leaders”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-apologises-to-victims-of-clerical-sexual-abuse-scandal-and-asks-for-forgiveness-9590647.html

The Pope did apologise but people want an apology, as I said, people living in the past, looking for something the Pope has done, and will continue to do to victims of sexual abuse.

I don't want an apology, I want co-operation into the inquiries and I want restitution for the victims of physical and sexual abuse. I also want transparency as to the controls that the church is putting in place around the interaction between vulnerable children and priests in the future to ensure this doesn't happen again.

RobertKK

blacklilly wrote: »

And why don't we as a society hate families? Thousands of families have hidden and aided sexual abuse. I absolutely agree that anyone who abuses needs to be held accountable for their actions and anyone who covers it up needs to be dealt with also. But don't think this is an issue exclusive to the catholic church. In fact, we are seeing that sexual abuse is becoming endemic is many organisations/groups etc.

My point is, people are so quick to jump on the anti church bandwagon yet don't want to acknowledge that sexual abuse is being perpetrated by fathers, uncles, brothers and less so by mothers, aunts and sisters every day of the week in this country.

They would have to hate their families to be consistent.

seamus

RobertKK wrote: »

Pope Francis as Pope years ago at this stage

2 years ago at this stage. More than 20 years after the scale of what was happening came to light.

The Pope did apologise but people want an apology, as I said, people living in the past, looking for something the Pope has done, and will continue to do to victims of sexual abuse.

And mindless Catholics are so willing to pretend it never happened, or even worse, that something has been done about it and it's "in the past". There are still child abusers in the church. Active priests, bishops and cardinals who have committed acts of barbarity, still being protected by the Catholic church.

The Pope should be visiting every country on his planet, and begging forgiveness from the populations in those countries for the evil that his organisation committed in those countries, in the name of self-protection.

A mealy-mouthed one-off apology is not good enough - especially when it's completely hollow. You cannot apologise for hiding child abusers, while still hiding child abusers.

Nothing short of a full revelation of the Vatican's private files to every law enforcement agency in the world, is enough to "atone" for the sins of the church. Expose all of the known paedophiles in your organisation, clean out the filth.

Then you might be taken seriously.

RobertKK

Glenster wrote: »

I don't want an apology, I want co-operation into the inquiries and I want restitution for the victims of physical and sexual abuse. I also want transparency as to the controls that the church is putting in place around the interaction between vulnerable children and priests in the future to ensure this doesn't happen again.

Do you go to church?

If not, then how do you know nothing has changed?

RobertKK

seamus wrote: »

2 years ago at this stage. More than 20 years after the scale of what was happening came to light.
And mindless Catholics are so willing to pretend it never happened, or even worse, that something has been done about it and it's "in the past". There are still child abusers in the church. Active priests, bishops and cardinals who have committed acts of barbarity, still being protected by the Catholic church.

The Pope should be visiting every country on his planet, and begging forgiveness from the populations in those countries for the evil that his organisation committed in those countries, in the name of self-protection.

A mealy-mouthed one-off apology is not good enough - especially when it's completely hollow. You cannot apologise for hiding child abusers, while still hiding child abusers.

Nothing short of a full revelation of the Vatican's private files to every law enforcement agency in the world, is enough to "atone" for the sins of the church. Expose all of the known paedophiles in your organisation, clean out the filth.

Then you might be taken seriously.

Who here says it never happened?

Some people will never be happy whatever the church does.

Glenster

RobertKK wrote: »

That is totally false.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-apologises-to-victims-of-clerical-sexual-abuse-scandal-and-asks-for-forgiveness-9590647.html

Cardinal Brady was replaced by Pope Francis.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/10/wikileaks-vatican-child-sex-abuse-investigation

https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/251110

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/lack-of-vatican-co-operation-over-child-sex-abuse-led-to-closure-of-embassy-1.469354

Not word one about cardinal Pell avoiding questions over accusations over cover ups in Australia from the Vatican for years. But what else should we expect?

seamus

blacklilly wrote: »

And why don't we as a society hate families? Thousands of families have hidden and aided sexual abuse. I absolutely agree that anyone who abuses needs to be held accountable for their actions and anyone who covers it up needs to be dealt with also. But don't think this is an issue exclusive to the catholic church. In fact, we are seeing that sexual abuse is becoming endemic is many organisations/groups etc.

My point is, people are so quick to jump on the anti church bandwagon yet don't want to acknowledge that sexual abuse is being perpetrated by fathers, uncles, brothers and less so by mothers, aunts and sisters every day of the week in this country.

Your point is flawed. Most people aren't a member of any groups or even families who are shielding paedophiles and allowing abuse to continue.

Being a member of a family doesn't suddenly make me part of any organisation of families.

If I was a member of an organisation that it turned out was shielding paedophiles, I'd be the first one to call out those who were being shielded or walk away if I'm just an "ordinary" member.

PTH2009

Garth Brooks won't play here in 2018 cause he will feel out staged with the pope coming here lol

The GAA will call off there games the weekend of the popes visit, buses from every corner of Ireland will arrive for it

Not really religious but I mite make the trip as it may be a once In a lifetime thing

Was 1979 really that crazy ??

RobertKK

Glenster wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/10/wikileaks-vatican-child-sex-abuse-investigation

https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/251110

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/lack-of-vatican-co-operation-over-child-sex-abuse-led-to-closure-of-embassy-1.469354

Not word one about cardinal Pell avoiding questions over accusations over cover ups in Australia from the Vatican for years. But what else should we expect?

Deflection as an abuse victim asked for Cardinal Brady to be replaced and he was replaced.
Which you did not acknowledge.

ScumLord

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I not religious but it will bring a LOT of tourism and attention on Ireland.

Why? Does he have a huge entourage?

Winterlong wrote: »

2.5 million turned out to see JP2 in 1979.
Doubt there will be so many this time round.

There might be as many there. just half of them might be protesting.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

Who here says it never happened?

Some people will never be happy whatever the church does.

Is that why it has done as little as it can get away with to help resolve the problem?

RobertKK

seamus wrote: »

Your point is flawed. Most people aren't a member of any groups or even families who are shielding paedophiles and allowing abuse to continue.

Being a member of a family doesn't suddenly make me part of any organisation of families.

If I was a member of an organisation that it turned out was shielding paedophiles, I'd be the first one to call out those who were being shielded or walk away if I'm just an "ordinary" member.

How do you know if a family member or a blood relation is not a paedophile. Paedophile don't exactly advertise to the public they abuse minors.

padd b1975

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I always found it interesting how not entertaining a cult filled with pedophiles and various forms of abuse is considered "atheist whinging".

Is child abuse not a major issue for theists or something? Because that is what you are implying.

Paedophilia bad.

M'kay.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

Deflection as an abuse victim asked for Cardinal Brady to be replaced and he was replaced.
Which you did not acknowledge.

What is there to acknowledge? He finally did the right thing in one instance after a personal plea from a victim? Why did he wait for a personal plea? Why did he not act before this? Why did his predecessors not act?

RobertKK

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Is that why it has done as little as it can get away with to help resolve the problem?

Can you tell me what they do in church to protect altar boys and girls, compared to be before the abuse was public knowledge?

seamus

RobertKK wrote: »

How do you know if a family member or a blood relation is not a paedophile. Paedophile don't exactly advertise to the public they abuse minors.

Shielding. Word there being "shielding". The Catholic isn't full of hidden paedophiles. They are known to, and protected by it.

JupiterKid

I think it would be fitting if Pope Francis delivers an apology on behalf of the Irish church for the pain and suffering that tens of thousands endured when the church ruled this country in all but name. For the first 4 decades of this country's existence as an independent State, Ireland was a theocracy.

We are never going back to those times and Ireland has long since moved on. Back in 1996 I would have protested at a Papal visit given the disgusting revelations of child sexual abuse by the clergy but I now see things from a wider perspective, a broader picture.

The Church is greatly diminished in power and that's a good thing. Francis's visit will not make one iota of difference to the inevitable repeal of the 8th Amendment. Irish people don't listen to or indeed fear the church now - we are an outward looking, sophisticated, wealthy, tolerant and cosmopolitan society now - a million miles from 1979.

Of course people have a right to protest the Pope's visit but I think for many devout Catholics it will be an important event. I won't be going to see him. But I wouldn't begrudge others the opportunity.

And I say this as a gay man who holds socially liberal views.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

How do you know if a family member or a blood relation is not a paedophile. Paedophile don't exactly advertise to the public they abuse minors.

The church knowingly aided and abetted paedophiles. The various bishops and cardinals involved should have been prosecuted along with the paedophile priests. But that will never happen as long as there are still church apologists.

RobertKK

seamus wrote: »

Shielding. Word there being "shielding". The Catholic isn't full of hidden paedophiles. They are known to, and protected by it.

You think there are no families out there who have shielded a fellow family member?

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

Can you tell me what they do in church to protect altar boys and girls, compared to be before the abuse was public knowledge?

so they have taken steps to prevent some further abuse? do you want a pat on the back for that?

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

You think there are no families out there who have shielded a fellow family member?

I'm sure there are. and they should be reviled as much as the paedophiles they protect. The same way the church should be reviled for the way they protected their own paedophiles.

seamus

RobertKK wrote: »

You think there are no families out there who have shielded a fellow family member?

You are a member of an organisation which hides paedophiles.

I am not.

Your deflections can't ignore that bare fact.

osarusan

My own reaction is one of indifference, and I think that indifference is a better response than being present to protest even, but I understand that people who have suffered/been discriminated against may feel differently.

RobertKK

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The church knowingly aided and abetted paedophiles. The various bishops and cardinals involved should have been prosecuted along with the paedophile priests. But that will never happen as long as there are still church apologists.

We had similar happen in Irish swimming.
All of it is the same horrific crime against minors, no one is saying it was alright or the church hold no responsibility.
The church is far bigger than simply the sexual abuse scandals, and being myopic is simply being blind to other aspects.