Pope will vist Ireland in 2018(mod warning in Op)

MeatTwoVeg

How much is this likely to cost?

If this means funds have to be diverted from front line services because some God-botherers want to see a guy in a dress and funny hat, then I'm not going to be happy.

The Draugan

A Little Pony wrote: »

The protesters regarding the child abuse will probably ruin this visit. He should skip ROI and just go to NI and brand it as a peace visit. This thread has shocked me at the hostility towards one of the better popes.

I don't think its anything against the man personally , its what he represents , the church he leads perpetrated and covered up child abuse for decades and are still protecting pedophile priests to this day. the reputation of the RCC is in the toilet across most of the civilized west at this stage.

lazybones32

whisky_galore wrote: »

Apologies are cheap.

I'm sure he's a very nice man, but represents a horrible, outdated organisation which severely wronged many of its followers and ruined their lives.

The church is in terminal decline, I'll give it 10-15 years...20 tops..before we'll see next to no priests and empty churches up and down the country.

First two are opinion so I'll only address the third.

Yeah, in Ireland, the number of priests is in decline but in the rest of the World the number is increasing. Seeing as Ireland's Catholics account for less than 0.045% of the total Catholic population I wouldn't call it a terminal decline. We'll have to bring in priests from abroad is all.

whisky_galore

lazybones32 wrote: »

We'll have to bring in priests from abroad is all.

And minister to whom?

The old folks will be gone, the younger crowd won't feel any pressure to keep up the charade anymore, bringing kids to Mass just to please the grandparents. The baptism school entry thing will go out the door shortly.

Perhaps the Polish community and a few 'new Irish' attending maybe that's about it.

ScumLord

The Draugan wrote: »

I hope we don't make a disgrace of ourselves fawning all over the man, with all of the abuses and cover ups by the RCC that have come to light in recent years ,

I'm sure we can put together some sort of protest group to mix things up. Yeah, a quick google shows that the Free Presbyterians up the north are already planning a protest. I'm sure we've got some atheists and serial protester groups that will spawn when the pope shows up.

The Draugan

lazybones32 wrote: »

First two are opinion so I'll only address the third.

Yeah, in Ireland, the number of priests is in decline but in the rest of the World the number is increasing. Seeing as Ireland's Catholics account for less than 0.045% of the total Catholic population I wouldn't call it a terminal decline. We'll have to bring in priests from abroad is all.

I think its fair to say the catholic church along with most other religions are experiencing a decline in the west , it unsurprising given how out of touch they are with modern life. This didn't actually start with the current generation , it started with their parents and was accelerated in the RCC's case by the abuse scandals , Magdalene laundries , industrial schools etc...

RobertKK

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

So basically same sex couples, unmarried families and single parents need not attend.

Isn't it shocking the Catholic church views the family from a Catholic perspective, they don't invite people to attend or ask if they are same sex couples or unmarried families or single parents, people are free to attend but should not be shocked that viewpoints at a catholic event are from a Catholic perspective.

Dick phelan

TBH because of my age i don't really care that much about what the Catholic Church did in the past in the same way i don't care what the IRA did, I often find a lot of the people who are very angry at the church are people who have never actually suffered under it, anyone who's in their 20s or even 30s has never really had to live under the control of the church, therefore i find their anger somewhat ridiculous, I understand older people having a deep hate for the church but many who do have never actually experienced things like industrial schools, laundries ect. I don't care about the Church, i feel no anger toward it, i personally think it's all a big fairy story but hey if people find some good in it as long as they leave me alone i'm fine with that. I really feel people who claim to not care about the church spend far too much time talking about it and getting themselves worked up into a rage over something they claim has no importance in their lives.

Bubbaclaus

RobertKK wrote: »

Isn't it shocking the Catholic church views the family from a Catholic perspective, they don't invite people to attend or ask if they are same sex couples or unmarried families or single parents, people are free to attend but should not be shocked that viewpoints at a catholic event are from a Catholic perspective.

Child abusers in the front row then.

Funny aul cult.

branie2

I hope I get to meet him. I was born a few months before Saint JP II came here.

brickmauser

whisky_galore wrote: »

Apologies are cheap.

I'm sure he's a very nice man, but represents a horrible, outdated organisation which severely wronged many of its followers and ruined their lives.

The church is in terminal decline, I'll give it 10-15 years...20 tops..before we'll see next to no priests and empty churches up and down the country.

They will send missionaries

brickmauser

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Child abusers in the front row then.

Funny aul cult.

Can you put a lip on the bigotry?

Have a go at the Muslims rather than an easy target.

Islamophobia is wrong but Catholicophobia is alright?

Glenster

brickmauser wrote: »

Can you put a lip on the bigotry?

Have a go at the Muslims rather than an easy target.

Islamophobia is wrong but Catholicophobia is alright?

The correct word is pederastophobia

uck51js9zml2yt

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Child abusers in the front row then.

Funny aul cult.

If you have evidence I'm sure the legal authories in this state would be willing to talk to you.

The Draugan

Dick phelan wrote: »

TBH because of my age i don't really care that much about what the Catholic Church did in the past in the same way i don't care what the IRA did, I often find a lot of the people who are very angry at the church are people who have never actually suffered under it, anyone who's in their 20s or even 30s has never really had to live under the control of the church, therefore i find their anger somewhat ridiculous, I understand older people having a deep hate for the church but many who do have never actually experienced things like industrial schools, laundries ect. I don't care about the Church, i feel no anger toward it, i personally think it's all a big fairy story but hey if people find some good in it as long as they leave me alone i'm fine with that. I really feel people who claim to not care about the church spend far too much time talking about it and getting themselves worked up into a rage over something they claim has no importance in their lives.

I disagree i don't think you have to of been personally affected in order to be angry at what was carried out and covered up by the church , they are still protecting pedophile priests to this day. And its not all that long ago the Magdalene laundries closed 1994 was the last one. we still have stupid laws here like the blasphemy law and the ban on abortion that was heavily influenced by the catholic church. No to mention the fact that our state school system still teaches more religion then science , geography and history up to second level. From a political Stan point the church and catholic organisations campaigned against marriage equality only 18 months ago.

I didnt live in Poland in 1938 or behind the iron curtain in the 50' and 60's either but I've no time for Nazis or Communists either.

uck51js9zml2yt

branie2 wrote: »

I hope I get to meet him. I was born a few months before Saint JP II came here.

I was in the park for JP but have no wish to attend and future events having left the DCC over 30 years ago

Bubbaclaus

brickmauser wrote: »

Can you put a lip on the bigotry?

Have a go at the Muslims rather than an easy target.

Islamophobia is wrong but Catholicophobia is alright?

Islam is a religion. The Catholic Church is not a religion - it is the richest cult in the world.

If you want to compare something against Islam you should be looking at Christianity. Christianity is the religion. I have no issues with Christianity.

My issue is with the wealthiest organisation in the world which thrives in the suffering of the poor and weak and takes advantage of that power. Mother Theresa being a recent example of someone that thrived in the suffering of others.

The flying mouse

lazybones32 wrote: »

To be honest, it sounds like you could be numbered among those with insincere motives for wanting a public apology from the most senior member of the RCC. Earlier on in the thread you were demanding a sincere apology and now you say you knew he already apologised but want him to do it again.

I would like the Pope as the head of the Catholic Church when he visits Ireland for the first time to apologize to the People of Ireland for the First time. Saying sorry from Rome or wherever is not the same.imo.

If that makes me insincere to you that's ok to.

RobertKK

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Islam is a religion. The Catholic Church is not a religion - it is the richest cult in the world.

If you want to compare something against Islam you should be looking at Christianity. Christianity is the religion. I have no issues with Christianity.

My issue is with the wealthiest organisation in the world which thrives in the suffering of the poor and weak and takes advantage of that power. Mother Theresa being a recent example of someone that thrived in the suffering of others.

Give or take for the first 1,000 years of Christianity it was only the Catholic church that existed, all the other forms of Christianity have their origins in the Catholic church.
Roman Catholicism is the founding religion of all Christian religions.
Therefore your statement as highlighted is contradictory as you do have issues with Christianity since all the break off churches like Protestant churches have their origin in the Catholic church.

The Catholic church is the 2nd biggest provider in the world of both healthcare and education after state provided healthcare and education.
In some poor countries it is only the church who provides these services which help people to get out of poverty.
If you teach a person to read and write, do maths and learn them science, it is the basis to remove oneself from poverty.
Even in rich countries like the US, 15% of hospitals are catholic hospitals.
The Catholic church for 2010 spent $170 billion to provide services to people.

From the economist:

OF ALL the organisations that serve America’s poor, few do more good work than the Catholic church: its schools and hospitals provide a lifeline for millions. Yet even taking these virtues into account, the finances of the Catholic church in America are an unholy mess. The sins involved in its book-keeping are not as vivid or grotesque as those on display in the various sexual-abuse cases that have cost the American church more than $3 billion so far.

The Economist estimates that annual spending by the church and entities owned by the church was around $170 billion in 2010 (the church does not release such figures). We think 57% of this goes on health-care networks, followed by 28% on colleges, with parish and diocesan day-to-day operations accounting for just 6% and national charitable activities just 2.7% (see chart). In total, Catholic institutions employ over 1m people, reckons Fred Gluck, a former McKinsey managing partner and co-founder of the National Leadership Roundtable on Church Management, a lay organisation seeking to improve the way the church is run. For purposes of secular comparison, in 2010 General Electric’s revenue was $150 billion and Walmart employed roughly 2m people.

http://www.economist.com/node/21560536
There is a lot more in that link.

Mr. CooL ICE

Amber High Videodisc wrote: »

I was in the park for JP but have no wish to attend and future events having left the DCC over 30 years ago

What has JP got to do with the dublin city council?

brickmauser

Glenster wrote: »

The correct word is pederastophobia

The hostility and hatred and bigotry on this thread stinks.

Bubbaclaus

RobertKK wrote: »

Give or take for the first 1,000 years of Christianity it was only the Catholic church that existed, all the other forms of Christianity have their origins in the Catholic church.
Roman Catholicism is the founding religion of all Christian religions.
Therefore your statement as highlighted is contradictory as you do have issues with Christianity since all the break off churches like Protestant churches have their origin in the Catholic church.

The Catholic church is the 2nd biggest provider in the world of both healthcare and education after state provided healthcare and education.
In some poor countries it is only the church who provides these services which help people to get out of poverty.
If you teach a person to read and write, do maths and learn them science, it is the basis to remove oneself from poverty.
Even in rich countries like the US, 15% of hospitals are catholic hospitals.
The Catholic church for 2010 spent $170 billion to provide services to people.

From the economist:

http://www.economist.com/node/21560536
There is a lot more in that link.

I'm fully aware that the CC is a money machine and owns and runs tons of educational and healthcare assets.

Doesn't override the fact that the manner is which they are run is deplorable in many cases Female reproductive rights are non-existent in CC run hospitals for example, as well as Hell's Angel herself Mother Theresa getting pleasure in the suffering of others because it "brought them closer to god"), and the narcissism and power by the people involved resulted in our great country being ruled by an iron fist and allowed paedophiles to have a free reign on us for decades without any fear.

JupiterKid

RobertKK wrote: »

Isn't it shocking the Catholic church views the family from a Catholic perspective, they don't invite people to attend or ask if they are same sex couples or unmarried families or single parents, people are free to attend but should not be shocked that viewpoints at a catholic event are from a Catholic perspective.

brickmauser wrote: »

The hostility and hatred and bigotry on this thread stinks.

What do you expect? That posters would be falling over themselves to fawn over the Pope and his church, a church that did untold damage to this country and its most vulnerable people?

If anything, I'm surprised that there isn't more anger and hostility expressed over this planned papal visit. More indifference I'd say.

whisky_galore

Dick phelan wrote: »

TBH because of my age i don't really care that much about what the Catholic Church did in the past in the same way i don't care what the IRA did, I often find a lot of the people who are very angry at the church are people who have never actually suffered under it, anyone who's in their 20s or even 30s has never really had to live under the control of the church, therefore i find their anger somewhat ridiculous, I understand older people having a deep hate for the church but many who do have never actually experienced things like industrial schools, laundries ect. I don't care about the Church, i feel no anger toward it, i personally think it's all a big fairy story but hey if people find some good in it as long as they leave me alone i'm fine with that. I really feel people who claim to not care about the church spend far too much time talking about it and getting themselves worked up into a rage over something they claim has no importance in their lives.

Some people on Boards get so worked up about 'the Brits' you would swear they fought the Tans back in the day. :rolleyes:

Glenster

Imagine the uproar if The Red Cross had sheltered paedophiles for years and had wilfully disrupted attempts to stop the spread of aids in the third world.

And refused to hire women.

And then went around in golden robes and was one of the largest landowners in the world but paid no taxes.

And then the spokesman for The Red Cross decided to make a visit to Ireland.

I have nothing against religion per se (do what you like if you want to is my slogan) but I don't believe they should be treated differently than any other organisation.

Boggy Turf

Is he here to renegotiate that disgraceful dodgy deal that has screwed the taxpayer?

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/07/18/indemnity-and-the-religious/

The June 2002 deal between Fianna Fail (above) and 18 religious orders, brokered by Michael Woods while serving as Minister for Education, awarded indemnity against all legal claims if…
…they paid €128m in cash and property.
Total liability was estimated at €300m even though no detailed analysis was carried out by any government department. The Government estimated there would be 2,000 claimants. In the end, there were more than 14,000.
Total liability is currently estimated at €1.2bn

They never paid for their crimes. I don't understand how people still darken their doors. They must be weak minded.

Galwayguy35

PressRun wrote: »

A top to bottom indictment of the crimes committed by members of the Catholic church in this country. And we've had nothing but a half-hearted apology by the people who aided and abetted the trauma inflicted on people like this man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iQGczIx6Sg

If people want to go and see the Pope in his own city, go for it. But why on earth we should be giving the VIP treatment to the head of an organisation who committed truly unforgivable crimes in this country is beyond me.

Had you a problem with the Queens visit?

After all she is the head of the British Armed forces who had a nasty habit of murdering Irish people.

Boulevardier

Papal visit in 2018?

Yawn. Wake me up when he's gone.

54and56

RobertKK wrote: »

The Pope is coming for the world meeting of families, it is a catholic event to celebrate the family as viewed from a catholic perspective. Which popes have attended in the past.
It is not a state visit like the Queen's visit was.

Good, so hopefully we won't see any of the States resources wasted on it or any of our office holders kissing the ring other than in a persona Catholic capacity. It's akin to an AC/Dc concert really. Big international show being put on in Dublin for fans of the act. Angus Young arrives in, hops into a limo, straight to the Merrion Hotel, chills out for a few hours, goes to the concert, puts on his show, collects his cash and hightails it onto the next gig. No need for any special treatment and no need for state resources to be wasted. Any crowd or traffic control costs are paid for by the concert promoter. End of.

RobertKK wrote: »

They won't be in Dublin castle having a state feast.

Who's "they"? I thought the Pope was a single person not a group of people.

RobertKK wrote: »

It is the Pope visiting for a catholic global event, I watched it on CNN last year, there will be people from around the world at it

Exactly, just like an AC/DC concert. I met people from the UK, the US, Australia and China at their concert in the Aviva a couple of years ago.

RobertKK wrote: »

It is more than just about Ireland.

"More" than just about Ireland? It's not at all about "Ireland". It's about practising Catholics having a get together for a few days in Ireland.

Last time I checked Irish Catholics did not equal "Ireland" any more than Irish Jehovah Witnesses, Irish Muslims or Irish Hindus equal Ireland.

54and56

Boggy Turf wrote: »

They never paid for their crimes. I don't understand how people still darken their doors. They must be weak minded.

Its easy to issue a verbal apology and to even sound sincere when you are evading the payment of €1,000,000,000 in damages due to the victims of your sadistic paedophile crimes.

54and56

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Had you a problem with the Queens visit?

After all she is the head of the British Armed forces who had a nasty habit of murdering Irish people.

There is a big difference between the historical victims of war between two nations/peoples (including barbaric "crimes" and torture carried out during such wars) which is healed and forgiven over time as each protagonist reaches and maintains a mutually respectful accommodation with the other (UK and Rep of Ireland, France and Germany, Japan and the US, Vietnam and the US etc etc etc) and an organisation who systematically sexually, physically and psychologically abused children and the weakest adults in the society they professed to serve and when confronted with their behaviour by the brave few who stood up to them not only did the Catholic church make arrangements to facilitate the continuation of the abuse by moving its employees to new locations where they could carry abusing undetected but they spent whatever it took on the finest legal resources to ensure they didn't have to compensate their victims.

If you can't spot the difference between the two situations I'm not sure you're looking very hard!!

RobertKK

I don't need to reply when some can only see sexual abuse and generalise it so much to paint a picture that sexual abuse was the job of the church.

If people only want to see the bad and dismiss the good, then it is like looking at a picture in the dark.
You will only see what your mind is allowing you to see or imagine.

With the lights on one can see the good and the bad and not see a picture painted by some here which is only the bad.

If people only want to look at the bad, it also gives a picture of the person who only wants to dwell in the dark.

A Little Pony

brickmauser wrote: »

Glenster wrote: »

The correct word is pederastophobia

The hostility and hatred and bigotry on this thread stinks.

He won't turn up if he reads this thread!

Galwayguy35

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

There is a big difference between the historical victims of war between two nations/peoples (including barbaric "crimes" and torture carried out during such wars) which is healed and forgiven over time as each protagonist reaches and maintains a mutually respectful accommodation with the other (UK and Rep of Ireland, France and Germany, Japan and the US, Vietnam and the US etc etc etc) and an organisation who systematically sexually, physically and psychologically abused children and the weakest adults in the society they professed to serve and when confronted with their behaviour by the brave few who stood up to them not only did the Catholic church make arrangements to facilitate the continuation of the abuse by moving its employees to new locations where they could carry abusing undetected but they spent whatever it took on the finest legal resources to ensure they didn't have to compensate their victims.

If you can't spot the difference between the two situations I'm not sure you're looking very hard!!

My granduncle was an innocent man tortured and murdered by the Tans who were soldiers who had the monarch as their head of state and just because it happened a long time ago it doesn't mean his suffering and others as well should be regarded as nothing.

But the Queens visit was showing that it's time to start the healing process, and the Popes visit should be seen in the same way.

Dyr

The British army were run out of here on a rail fornearly a century before the UK queen showed her face.


We still have to get shot of the Roman church before we start talking of healing

A Little Pony

Bambi wrote: »

The British army were run out of here on a rail fornearly a century before the UK queen showed her face.


We still have to get shot of the Roman church before we start talking of healing

How can you get rid of the Catholic Church? You have them all over the Island. I can literally walk a mile to one near my home.

RobertKK

Bambi wrote: »

The British army were run out of here on a rail fornearly a century before the UK queen showed her face.


We still have to get shot of the Roman church before we start talking of healing

Are you suggesting the extermination of people, given the church is it's people?

Straight Talker

Let them have their little party.Of course they will say with defiance that the church is not dead.The church is still alive etc.But make no mistake about it the days of the catholic church setting the agendas in this country are well and truly over.

Bubbaclaus

Straight Talker wrote: »

Let them have their little party.Of course they will say with defiance that the church is not dead.The church is still alive etc.But make no mistake about it the days of the catholic church setting the agendas in this country are well and truly over.

And thank **** for that. Once the 8th is repealed on top of Marriage Equality coming in last year we will move further and further away from the Medieval, deplorable and unforgivable era of Catholic Church rule.

Dyr

A Little Pony wrote: »

How can you get rid of the Catholic Church? You have them all over the Island. I can literally walk a mile to one near my home.

And I'd say you do every summer

Dyr

RobertKK wrote: »

Are you suggesting the extermination of people, given the church is it's people?

That is absolutely to most obvious and logical inference to draw from that post. Congratulations

RobertKK

Bambi wrote: »

That is absolutely to most obvious and logical inference to draw from that post. Congratulations

The word church refers to people.
Catholic comes from universal.
So it is universal people.
You said "We still have to get shot of the Roman church before we start talking of healing"
So with church meaning people...

ArKl0w

We'd better get rid of all soccer coaches too,they must have all been at it
Bloody Soccer

HellSquirrel

RobertKK wrote: »

Are you suggesting the extermination of people, given the church is it's people?

Er, I would -suspect- s/he's referring to the power that the Roman Catholic Church still holds in Irish society and decision making rather than mass murder. I dunno, it's AH. But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on not advocating religious genocide!

RobertKK

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Er, I would -suspect- s/he's referring to the power that the Roman Catholic Church still holds in Irish society and decision making rather than mass murder. I dunno, it's AH. But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on not advocating religious genocide!

Well there are cases of non religious committing genocide against religious.
No one can be too careful these days...

Bubbaclaus

RobertKK wrote: »

Well there are cases of non religious committing genocide against religious.
No one can be too careful these days...

Don't worry, God has the biggest genocide of all planned (Armageddon).

Tuesday week I believe.

The_Valeyard

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Don't worry, God has the biggest genocide of all planned (Armageddon).

Tuesday week I believe.

Well, If it ends all this babbling I'm in favour of it.

Boggy Turf

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/11/29/pope-to-visit-zero-mass-grave-sites-during-visit/


Pope To Visit Zero Mass Grave Sites During Visit

Pope Francis made the announcement of his visit earlier this week, prompting fleeting thoughts in the minds of those affected by the Catholic church’s views on ‘fallen women’ over the last hundred years that they might be getting some sort of apology from the pontiff at a special ceremony or something.
However Franko’s ‘bucket list of places to visit in Paddyland’ features almost zero mention of visiting people whose lives were torn apart by paedophile priests or the subsequent Vatican-endorsed cover-up, nor indeed of the mass-grave site of over 800 babies at a Mother & baby home in Tuam, Co. Galway.

Simi

ArKl0w wrote: »

We'd better get rid of all soccer coaches too,they must have all been at it
Bloody Soccer

It's not the same though. If the abuse had been covered up by FIFA, and they'd protected and moved around the soccer coaches allowing them to continue abusing kids, and then intimidated the victims who came forward and tried to discredit them, it'd be kinda similar.

If that were the case we'd quite understandably investigate FIFA officials for acting like a pedophile ring.

54and56

Simi wrote: »

It's not the same though. If the abuse had been covered up by FIFA, and they'd protected and moved around the soccer coaches allowing them to continue abusing kids, and then intimidated the victims who came forward and tried to discredit them, it'd be kinda similar.

If that were the case we'd quite understandably investigate FIFA officials for acting like being a pedophile ring.

Fixed that for ya.