The Last Of Us 2

johnny_ultimate

It takes all my strength to not get dragged into internet arguments about The Last Jedi.

I just take great solace in the fact that it exists and is my favourite Star Wars film by a country mile.

Sadly, I am less favourable about The Last of Us 2's place in the Naughty Dog modern canon.

johnny_ultimate

The Phantom Pain wrote: »

I didn't even like The Last Jedi but unlike the rest of its detractors I won't allow my distaste for the film muddy basic box office facts.

The Rise of Skywalker “only” made $300,000,000 in profit - cue 100,000 outraged nerd-baby videos about how Star Wars is dead

Retr0gamer

I liked that the last jedi subverted expectations and rules but it never came together. There was the floating princess leia bit that was stupid and it got stupider from there. And then the theme of don't be headstrong and adventurous and just sit back and follow orders without questioning them was both ridiculous for an action adventure and a pretty dangerous ideal to be promoting. I find it strange that people think that the film is quite liberal with a theme like that.

Can't call it total garbage. Rian tried something new but it just didn't end up an enjoyable film.

But it also can't be used to excuse rise of skywalker. The Last ajedi in it's defense shook things up and left some very interesting threads to follow up on. It would have been fun to follow it up and do something new with the series, take that challenge left by Rian Johnson and get creative but rise of the skywalker decided to just retcon it and deliver a totally unsatisfying conclusion.

johnny_ultimate

The Rise of Skywalker is a terrible movie, but even at that I watched it and said ‘well I never need to worry about it again’.

The sheer persistence with which some Internet (well, youtube) communities can’t let go of pieces of entertainment they don’t like is quite staggering.

Retr0gamer

I feel personally attacked.

sniper_samurai

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The Rise of Skywalker is a terrible movie, but even at that I watched it and said ‘well I never need to worry about it again’.

The sheer persistence with which some Internet (well, youtube) communities can’t let go of pieces of entertainment they don’t like is quite staggering.

As I said TLJ closed off too many threads leaving RoS in a poor starting position. Then Abrams turned the ship directly into a black hole and needlessly retconned pretty much every story beat in TLJ and shoe horned in Palpatine for good measure.

CastorTroy

For Ghostbusters, I remember saying to someone if I had paid to see it in the cinema, I wouldn't have regretted it. It was grand.
I also didn't mind the sequel trilogy, the Lost ending or the Game of Thrones ending.
True they weren't great, but they're done and they're over and I can move on with my life unaffected either way.

As for Last of Us 2, it was like the multiple endings of Return of the King, if each of those endings were stretched out to multiple hours.

Zero-Cool

Oh man, i remember return of the king in the cinema. I just have stood up 3 times to leave before more film started playing, they took the absolute piss.

I really like the California section in this and it's interesting hearing how it was originally a much bigger open world section. Would have dragged way too much though.

gimli2112

CastorTroy wrote: »

For Ghostbusters, I remember saying to someone if I had paid to see it in the cinema, I wouldn't have regretted it. It was grand.
I also didn't mind the sequel trilogy, the Lost ending or the Game of Thrones ending.
True they weren't great, but they're done and they're over and I can move on with my life unaffected either way.

As for Last of Us 2, it was like the multiple endings of Return of the King, if each of those endings were stretched out to multiple hours.

I get the feeling nothing much bothers you

CastorTroy

True. You're not the first to say that.
Though there are films I really don't like.
A film I really didn't like was Kingdom of Heaven. Joint second place are Thin Red Line and Syriana.

Retr0gamer

CastorTroy wrote: »

Joint second place are Thin Red Line and Syriana.

You're not going to find many supporters there.

Mr.Saturn

It is hilarious that Last of Us Part II struggles to engage so much that it can't even maintain interest in a dedicated Last of Us Part II thread.

Mr.Saturn

Mr.Saturn wrote: »

It is hilarious that Last of Us Part II struggles to engage so much that it can't even maintain interest in a dedicated Last of Us Part II thread.

Well the last few pages are all about movies. So hard to engage with that.

TLOU2 is crap. It’s just rinse repeat non stop.
No likeable characters which is in complete contrast to the first one, even Ellie is not likeable in this. Everyone is just bitter.
So, not a fun gaming experience? And not a fun story to wade through.

If they wanted to cause “controversy” in the gaming world, they chose the most obvious route by killing Joel off. Too easy, try harder naughty dog.

And then they force us to play as the person who killed Joel. I would have loved to been a fly on the wall during those naughty dog meetings. So basically, we are going to give our customers the exact opposite of what they want to pay for.

They built up some great characters that we a wanted to cheer on, and they knew this, and they kill Joel? Why? What was the point, this is a computer game, it’s like stealing candy from a baby.

It’s like buying a sonic game, and sonic dies after the first level, and you’re left with a moaning bitter two tails for the rest of the game, oh, and then you play as dr robotnic who had killed sonic in a cut scene.

The game just has no redeeming features (apart from the stunning graphics, music and sound design :-) )

jones

I'm shocked that people think TLOU2 is "crap". While i think it has it issues (its too long, some odd story/character choices) i actually admire the story they tried to tell. The world has gone to sh*t and that played out from the very start of the game. I have only finished it once (waiting for PS5 patch to replay it) and when the "controversial" story beat happens at the start of the game i was in shock and it really did turn me off that game at first. But as i kept playing i slowly started to enjoy the story (if that is the right word) despite my issue with that story choice and in the end the character of Abby was like a mirror version of Ellie. This world is a very dark world and even darker than the first game IMO. I wish they had found another way of moving on with the sequel without having to resort to the "incident".

Having said all that I think the issue ND had was they didn't just want to retread the same story as the first game....the problem is that i think that's exactly what everyone else wanted. Gimme more Joel and Ellie god dammit :-)

johnny_ultimate

Once again, this idea that Joel was a loveable character to ‘cheer on’ feels to me very much at odds with the first game, and its ending in particular. I know others feel differently, but for me the creators always intended him as at best a morally-dubious anti-hero.

I’ve expressed at length the substantial issues I have with this game in terms of its execution, but the fact it’s a bleak game that pulls its characters down some grim, unlikeable directions is completely in tune with the tone and approach of TLOU1. The ‘continued, charming adventures of Joel and Ellie’ was absolutely not the sequel set up by the original. Whether there was any need for a sequel at all is a separate matter.

johnny_ultimate

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Once again, this idea that Joel was a loveable character to ‘cheer on’ feels to me very much at odds with the first game, and its ending in particular. I know others feel differently, but for me the creators always intended him as at best a morally-dubious anti-hero.

I’ve expressed at length the substantial issues I have with this game in terms of its execution, but the fact it’s a bleak game that pulls its characters down some grim, unlikeable directions is completely in tune with the tone and approach of TLOU1. The ‘continued, charming adventures of Joel and Ellie’ was absolutely not the sequel set up by the original. Whether there was any need for a sequel at all is a separate matter.

There was definitely an opportunity to let Joel redeem himself in the sequel, and perhaps put him in a situation where he sacrifices himself towards the end of the game. His death in a cutscene was cheap and easy storytelling.

I never used the word “loveable”. But I was happy that both Joel and Ellie were alive at the end of TLOU.

Retr0gamer

Deleted User wrote: »

There was definitely an opportunity to let Joel redeem himself in the sequel, and perhaps put him in a situation where he sacrifices himself towards the end of the game. His death in a cutscene was cheap and easy storytelling.

And thank god they never did this as it would have just shat all over the original. It's about a selfish shmuck that blows his shot at redemption because of his selfishness. Giving him another shot at redemption would just ruin that.

My biggest issue with TLOU2 is it takes nearly 30 hours to say nothing. Nothing about the characters, they are all just awful cartoon characters. It says nothing about the human condition other than 'violence is bad m'kay, look what it did to Ellie'. Abby walks away from it, Ellie doesn't. It's so basic and it just doesn't work because by the end of it no one is a believable character anymore.

Retr0gamer

Retr0gamer wrote: »

And thank god they never did this as it would have just shat all over the original. It's about a selfish shmuck that blows his shot at redemption because of his selfishness. Giving him another shot at redemption would just ruin that.

My biggest issue with TLOU2 is it takes nearly 30 hours to say nothing. Nothing about the characters, they are all just awful cartoon characters. It says nothing about the human condition other than 'violence is bad m'kay, look what it did to Ellie'. Abby walks away from it, Ellie doesn't. It's so basic and it just doesn't work because by the end of it no one is a believable character anymore.

Joel was Ellie’s Protector. You can’t just flick a switch. What he did wasn’t selfish, it was human nature.

No parent would have walked away and let a Ellie be sacrificed. (I know he wasn’t actually her dad)

johnny_ultimate

I’d go as far as saying everything up until the start of the main revenge plot here is really bloody good (and that Seattle mini open world is great). The use of three perspectives is handled very well, there’s an eerie sense of foreboding when you start figuring out how the pieces are fitting together, and then a sense of helplessness as Joel’s death unfolds. Positioning Ellie as having these unresolved issues with Joel that she can’t confront him about any more is actually a really rich place to position the character at the start of the story. That basic setup I have very few issues with, and it’s compellingly bleak and suspenseful in execution.

Obviously, where the game goes after that is all over the gaff quality-wise and there’s a strong sense of unfulfilled potential. I also think the way the flashbacks are structured unnecessarily muddy some key character motivations until far too late in the game.

Retr0gamer

Deleted User wrote: »

Joel was Ellie’s Protector. You can’t just flick a switch. What he did wasn’t selfish, it was human nature.

No parent would have walked away and let a Ellie be sacrificed. (I know he wasn’t actually her dad)

It's the fact he lied to her at the end. He didn't do it for her. He did it for himself. That lie is everything. It just shows he hadn't changed. He was put in a ****ty situation and both choices he had would were not good. But it's the fact that he did it for himself, not Ellie which is most damning. A parent would rescue a child to protect their children. Or you could sacrifice ellie for the fate of humanity. Joel took the choice to fill the hole missing in his life, not for anything else.

jones

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Obviously, where the game goes after that is all over the gaff quality-wise and there’s a strong sense of unfulfilled potential. I also think the way the flashbacks are structured unnecessarily muddy some key character motivations until far too late in the game.

Totally agree its where i was going with my issues with the game earlier. There is some Joel and Ellie moments but they leave them so far into the game it's much less meaningful that it should have been.

I still give this a 8/10

Penn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There was definitely an opportunity to let Joel redeem himself in the sequel, and perhaps put him in a situation where he sacrifices himself towards the end of the game. His death in a cutscene was cheap and easy storytelling.

I never used the word “loveable”. But I was happy that both Joel and Ellie were alive at the end of TLOU.

Him sacrificing or redeeming himself would have been the easiest thing in the world.

The whole point of the world of TLOU is that it's cruel and unfair. There are no easy deaths. You don't get to go out in a blaze of glory. Even Tess' death in the first game was only because she was already bitten and going to die anyway.

Joel spent most of the previous 20 years being cruel and violent. He died a cruel and violent death. It wasn't the easy choice by ND given the reaction most people had to it. They killed him off in a way that featured no redemption, sacrifice, last words to Ellie etc. Just someone trying to make par with his nose.

jones

Penn wrote: »

Joel spent most of the previous 20 years being cruel and violent. He died a cruel and violent death. It wasn't the easy choice by ND given the reaction most people had to it. They killed him off in a way that featured no redemption, sacrifice, last words to Ellie etc. Just someone trying to make par with his nose.

This

jones

jones wrote: »

This

No, not this. Everyone in that world is living a violent life, looking after their own. Joel and Ellie were no different.

The fact that We were asked to join Joel and Ellie’s story is the reason they were the ones we cared about.

Sure if we had spent the main story with another character, Joel AND Ellie would have appeared as monsters, just as everyone else in this world does.

But the thing is, TLOU was a hit because of Joel AND Ellie, and this is a fact.

Their relationship and dynamic was amazing. And they just took a big dump on that and the experience suffered as a result

jones

Deleted User wrote: »

No, not this. Everyone in that world is living a violent life, looking after their own. Joel and Ellie were no different.

The fact that We were asked to join Joel and Ellie’s story is the reason they were the ones we cared about.

Sure if we had spent the main story with another character, Joel AND Ellie would have appeared as monsters, just as everyone else in this world does.

But the thing is, TLOU was a hit because of Joel AND Ellie, and this is a fact.

Their relationship and dynamic was amazing. And they just took a big dump on that and the experience suffered as a result

Two things can both be true at the same time ha.

The whole game-world is dog eat dog but i do agree the reason first game worked was due to Joel and Ellie and for whats its worth i would have done the same thing as Joel at the end of TLOU - although probably wouldn't have killed the doctor but anyway.

I wanted to see more of J&E together in the TLOU2 but i can see why ND went the way they did although i wouldn't of structured it in the same way they did so early in the game. As i said they wanted a different story to part 1 or what's the point.

Either way i enjoyed the game and what they tried to do, it doesn't fully work for me but still a cracking attempt. TLOU 1 is one of my favourite games ever so it was always going to be a hard follow up.

gimli2112

It's good that people can take different things from the story, just dismayed so many of you have it so wrong. Joel was great, unfortunately in life the good guys don't always win.

Penn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, not this. Everyone in that world is living a violent life, looking after their own. Joel and Ellie were no different.

The fact that We were asked to join Joel and Ellie’s story is the reason they were the ones we cared about.

Sure if we had spent the main story with another character, Joel AND Ellie would have appeared as monsters, just as everyone else in this world does.

But the thing is, TLOU was a hit because of Joel AND Ellie, and this is a fact.

Their relationship and dynamic was amazing. And they just took a big dump on that and the experience suffered as a result

But we had that game. A second game of the continued adventures of Joel and Ellie gives so little room for growth. They had the first game, and then 5 years after that. There was nowhere really for their relationship to go, not in a way that could sustain a sequel. Even their frayed relationship at the start of this game and all the flashbacks is enough for background to Ellie's motivations in this game, but not enough to be a story itself.

A TLOU2 with Joel and Ellie would just be a "Oh boy, here we go killing again!" There was nowhere for their relationship to go. There was nowhere for Joel's character to go.