Taoiseach’s Mayo village cycling club hits jackpot with Lottery grant

magicbastarder

OleRodrigo wrote: »

they saw an angle within the rules

yeah, they just happened to be the first club to do so (citation required). and that club just happened to be one the taoiseach is a member of. and the taoiseach just happened to make two requests to the minister for health about the application. and they just happened to get considerably more than any other sporting club applying under the same scheme.
sheer begrudgery.

listermint

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Just to point out, spinning classes and stationary machines are health and fitness devices, not sporting devices, so the terms of the application are met.

We're not talking about road racing team funding here, which is sort of implied when the application is labeled under ' sport '.

Fair play to them, they saw an angle within the rules and they went for it. Accountants and lawyers do it every day. People are just begrudging their win.

Only took a few posts and the magic word comes out..... Begr........ Zzzzz

good work aint dear

is it not time that arrogant ,selfish, excuse of a man cycled off into the sunset [SNIPPED]

RayCun

CramCycle wrote: »

The club fulfill the grant requirements, which to be fair, if it succeeds in getting more people interested in getting out bar those with an interest already, is not a bad resolution, even if you think there are more worthy projects.

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Just to point out, spinning classes and stationary machines are health and fitness devices, not sporting devices, so the terms of the application are met.

The terms of the application are not met, and they do not fit the grant requirements.
There is a whole other fund available for sports capital grants, a fund to which this club could have applied.

The Health fund is very clear

Who Can Apply
Applications are accepted from community groups and voluntary
organisations with an involvement in the provision of health services to
specific client groups (for example persons with an intellectual disability
and/or physical disability, elderly, etc.), national groups providing
information and support for various disabilities and illnesses and
groups with a specific interest (for example to provide respite for
elderly, equipment for day services, residential homes, etc.)

A cycling club buying equipment for use of its members does not qualify.

Please note the following before completing the application form:
 Applications MUST HAVE a specific health related benefit.
 Applications that are not appropriate to the Department of Health
(Sports, Education, Childcare & Youth Affairs, etc.) will not be accepted.

This application should not have been accepted.

terrydel

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Just to point out, spinning classes and stationary machines are health and fitness devices, not sporting devices, so the terms of the application are met.

We're not talking about road racing team funding here, which is sort of implied when the application is labeled under ' sport '.

Fair play to them, they saw an angle within the rules and they went for it. Accountants and lawyers do it every day. People are just begrudging their win.

Ah the oul begrudgery 'argument'
Why cant you wrap your head around the fact that maybe some, probably a lot of people, are just ****ing sick to their back teeth of how things operate in this country, the blatant cronyism/nepotism and general cute hoorism (I hate that phrase because it belittles the seriousness of this carry on) that goes on with complete inpunity. But any complaint or challenge gets lazily portrayed as begrudgery. Total and utter nonsense.

CramCycle

RayCun wrote: »

The terms of the application are not met, and they do not fit the grant requirements.
There is a whole other fund available for sports capital grants, a fund to which this club could have applied.

If they applied for it as a health grant, to encourage the elderly, isolated and other groups in the community to come out and socialise, increase excercise, then a health grant is a perfect fit.

The Health fund is very clear

It is.

A cycling club buying equipment for use of its members does not qualify.

My understanding is that the application would (or should have) stated that it is not solely for the club members, but for the community. Does anyone have a copy of their application.

This application should not have been accepted.

Quite possibly not, but until someone shows it here, that is a jump.

Now if the club use it for something other than what the grant stipulated, that is a different matter (fraud) or don't open it up to the community at large and actively promote it to the community (failing to meet the purpose). Now the far bigger issue for me, based on the belief the club fill those requirements, is that was this really the most deserving grant (DoH issue and wider governmental issue). Spiderski, did your FOI pertain to the grant application as well, do you have a copy? Or does anyone know who you would ask for a copy of the weighting given during the application.

smacl

CramCycle wrote: »

My understanding is that the application would (or should have) stated that it is not solely for the club members, but for the community.

It would be interesting to see whether they went for turbo trainers or spin bikes so, as turbos need a suitable bike to work and aren't so much use to the wider community.

OleRodrigo wrote:

Just to point out, spinning classes and stationary machines are health and fitness devices, not sporting devices, so the terms of the application are met.

You could say the same for any piece of sporting equipment used to get some exercise rather than to train competitively. How many competitive cyclists on this forum use stationary machines over the winter for training purposes? I think the question is not what the equipment can be used for, it is what will it primarily be used for and by whom?

I'm all for the state investing in people taking exercise as a preventative health measure, but ain't convinced that's what is going on here.

RayCun

CramCycle wrote: »

If they applied for it as a health grant, to encourage the elderly, isolated and other groups in the community to come out and socialise, increase excercise, then a health grant is a perfect fit.

There is nothing to support that interpretation.

If they had applied for some sort of portable turbos that they would bring to old folks homes, group homes for people with disabilities, etc, that might have qualified.

The bikes are going in their clubhouse, and they have said explicitly that they are for use of their members.

And even if the facility was primarily for the use of members, but was also partly open to the community, that would not qualify.

Look at the application criteria

Applications are accepted from community groups and voluntary
organisations with an involvement in the provision of health services to
specific client groups (for example persons with an intellectual disability
and/or physical disability, elderly, etc.), national groups providing
information and support for various disabilities and illnesses and
groups with a specific interest (for example to provide respite for
elderly, equipment for day services, residential homes, etc.)

They are not an organisation with an involvement in the provision of health services.
They are a sports club.
They are not providing health services to specific client groups.
Any health benefits are for club members.
They are not a national group providing information and support.

They don't qualify. They don't come close to qualifying. Any "but maybe..." is just special pleading.

One one level it's great that the Taoiseach is a cycling enthusiast. That said it's a pity he couldn't think of the bigger picture for cycling in Ireland and use his influence to get something like the velodrome project off the ground.

CramCycle

RayCun wrote: »

They don't qualify. They don't come close to qualifying. Any "but maybe..." is just special pleading.

I don't know, I have not seen their application. I am in doubt that the intention meets the requirements, but that is not the same as the application meeting the requirements. Do you have a copy of it for us to review?

smacl

ronoc wrote: »

One one level it's great that the Taoiseach is a cycling enthusiast. That said it's a pity he couldn't think of the bigger picture for cycling in Ireland and use his influence to get something like the velodrome project off the ground.

Or given that obesity related illnesses are such a draw on the health services, start zero rating exercise equipment, gym membership etc... for VAT, and properly funding sports clubs from the point of view of large scale participation rather than just elite achievement. The bike to work scheme has been great, we could do with quite a few more imaginative policies of this nature.

Chuchote

smacl wrote: »

Or given that obesity related illnesses are such a draw on the health services, start zero rating exercise equipment, gym membership etc... for VAT, and properly funding sports clubs from the point of view of large scale participation rather than just elite achievement. The bike to work scheme has been great, we could do with quite a few more imaginative policies of this nature.

If you think what taking all those 5km journeys in cars does to the population - obesity, diabetes, heart disease, strokes, hypertension, respiratory disorders, and the latest is heightened Alzheimer's risk - it's obvious we have to stop cars being the main mode of transport.

RayCun

CramCycle wrote: »

I don't know, I have not seen their application. I am in doubt that the intention meets the requirements, but that is not the same as the application meeting the requirements. Do you have a copy of it for us to review?

we have a statement from the club PRO

“We are delivering on providing better health,” Mr Horkan said.

“Cumulatively, our 105 members lost 150 stone – 1.5 stone each – by participating in weekly club activities such as cycle rides, pilates and spinning.”

Mr Horkan said the €20,000 funding will enable the club to provide “proper exercise equipment” at its base.

“At the moment members that spin have to bring their own bikes and turboframes with them, ” he said.

Maybe their grant application says something completely different - maybe they applied for money to buy handbikes which they will use to provide health services to the specific client group of people without the use of their legs. Maybe they are going to spend it on guide dogs for the blind. But there is no reason to suppose that they are spending it on anything other they said they were spending it on, except that you are performing triple backwards somersaults to give a cycling club "the benefit of the doubt"

Chuchote

Maybe others will join now that they have the equipment, though the sessions sound kind of dear, scarcely fair. But they already have over 10% of the population of the village in the cycling club, which is pretty good.

RayCun

Chuchote wrote: »

Maybe others will join now that they have the equipment, though the sessions sound kind of dear, scarcely fair. But they already have over 10% of the population of the village in the cycling club, which is pretty good.

That's what a sports capital grant is for, not a health grant.

Seth Brundle

Playing devil's advocate here but could it not fall under both health and sport?

The obvious category would be sport but due to the health benefits...?

This time last year I did a cardiac rehab programme in Blanch Hospital. This was using gym equipment (mix of step, rowing and cycling machines along with treadmills). This was all monitored to check for cardiac issues.
Some of the goals of the programme (according to the HSE) are:
• Improve fitness levels.
• Improve stress management.

Is the use of the equipment in this situation a sports or health use?

RayCun

kbannon wrote: »

Playing devil's advocate here but could it not fall under both health and sport?

The obvious category would be sport but due to the health benefits...?

Any sports club wanting to buy equipment could play this card.

That is why the application criteria say "an involvement in the provision of health services to specific client groups" and the application form specifically states that applications that fall under a different heading will not be accepted.

Weepsie

You were in a clinical setting, monitored by clinical professionals. This is a private sports club which though open for membership, comes with a fee and then has added fees.

CramCycle

RayCun wrote: »

we have a statement from the club PRO



Maybe their grant application says something completely different - maybe they applied for money to buy handbikes which they will use to provide health services to the specific client group of people without the use of their legs. Maybe they are going to spend it on guide dogs for the blind. But there is no reason to suppose that they are spending it on anything other they said they were spending it on, except that you are performing triple backwards somersaults to give a cycling club "the benefit of the doubt"

It probably does, would not be the first time by a long shot. It would have taken some coaching from someone with strong knowledge of the process, to phrase it right though, potentially someone with knowledge of the weighting system, or with the potetnial to influence the weighting system (not the first time this stunt would have been pulled either). I imagine that they were told this was OK, the way things are done. They have a chance now to fufill the aims of the grant before they potentially get in trouble (which may never happen if no audit is initiated).

CramCycle

Weepsie wrote: »

You were in a clinical setting, monitored by clinical professionals. This is a private sports club which though open for membership, comes with a fee and then has added fees.

Do you have to be in the club to go to the classes?

Weepsie

CramCycle wrote: »

Do you have to be in the club to go to the classes?

No, but again there's a fee

ted1

Weepsie wrote: »

You were in a clinical setting, monitored by clinical professionals. This is a private sports club which though open for membership, comes with a fee and then has added fees.

Fees are irreverent , that's not an issue.
The hospitals also charge fees. Nursing homes have fees, I could go on.

Weepsie

ted1 wrote: »

Fees are irreverent , that's not an issue.
The hospitals also charge fees. Nursing homes have fees, I could go on.

They would tend to also be prescribed. A doctor saying get more exercise and a doctor getting you to attend physio/cardio sessions monitored by a health professional in a clinical environment are 2 very different things.

RayCun

I have a set of weights I could borrow from my club.
I could set myself up as a physical trainer, charge people for weights sessions in the park.
People who did those sessions would get healthier.

That doesn't mean I'm eligible for a Health grant to buy more weights.
Or to buy heart rate monitors that I would lend to people who signed up for my running classes.
Even though people using that equipment would get healthier.

average_runner

Chuchote wrote: »

If you think what taking all those 5km journeys in cars does to the population - obesity, diabetes, heart disease, strokes, hypertension, respiratory disorders, and the latest is heightened Alzheimer's risk - it's obvious we have to stop cars being the main mode of transport.

What move people onto trains, buses etc, that won't get people fit. Not everyone wants to cycle, same way not every one wants to run or drive, so don't force stuff on people, government does that enough already.

Cycling or walking to work won't get people fit unless they adapt the life style to go with.

The most important part right now is to educate people about nutrition etc. The rest will follow.

You can get a bus/car to work every day and still be very fit from activities afterwards.
Cycling to work does not make you healthier, just look at some of the people cycling home tonight.

spyderski

spyderski

https://www.flickr.com/photos/146691222@N06/31745571750/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/146691222@N06/31745572750/in/dateposted-public/

spyderski

Can't seem to post those links as pics, but they are the 2 relevant pages from the application sent in to the Dept of Health by The Taoiseach..

listermint

Looks like someone was schooled before that application went in.

including the capital letters in various parts of it.

RayCun

spyderski wrote: »

Can't seem to post those links as pics, but they are the 2 relevant pages from the application sent in to the Dept of Health by The Taoiseach..

reads like someone went in and added "and wider community" to every sentence :rolleyes:

But "club members AND the wider community" is not a specific client group.

long term goal of encouraging people to join our club. ffs