Taoiseach’s Mayo village cycling club hits jackpot with Lottery grant

Jawgap

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I imagine the charge is there to stop every tom dick and harry phoning up with flippant requests, not because of the time or cost.

Who decides what's flippant?

There are provisions to deal with requests deemed frivolous or vexatious requests.

FoI is a pretty important piece of legislation for the citizen and civil servants or public servants don't get to pass judgement on the motives of the requester.....

.....of course a cynic might suggest that the fees were changed and upped, and the system made more complicated, because politicians were fed up with politically embarrassing material of significant public interest being released to citizens......

Lumen

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I imagine the charge is there to stop every tom dick and harry phoning up with flippant requests, not because of the time or cost.

No, there's a specific provision for rejecting such requests.

Refusal on administrative grounds to grant FOI requests

15. (1) A head to whom an FOI request is made may refuse to grant the request where—
...
(g) the request is, in the opinion of the head, frivolous or vexatious or forms part of a pattern of manifestly unreasonable requests from the same requester or from different requesters who, in the opinion of the head, appear to have made the requests acting in concert

(my emphasis)

Source: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/act/30/section/15/enacted/en/html

spyderski

Esroh wrote: »

To those of you who have been looking into this.
Have any Community Centres/Sports Centres been given grants under the Health Funding for equipment .

Yes, some community centres. There's loads of reasons a community or sports centre could qualify for grant aid from the Health Fund.

Esroh

spyderski wrote: »

Yes, some community centres. There's loads of reasons a community or sports centre could qualify for grant aid from the Health Fund.

Jakes Cottage as its called is used as the Islaneady Community Centre.And the only facility within the area apart from the Gaa Club. If the grant had been allocated directly to the Community Centre would people have even noticed.
If the Cycling Club is taking responsibility for the running of spinning classes under the auspicious of the Community Council then why should the application be questioned.

spyderski

Fully agree. If the community centre had applied and if the cycling club were running spinning classes on their behalf, there would be no problem.

But that's not what happened. The club received €20k and its stated purpose is to buy "proper exercise equipment" for its members.

And if there is a logical and innocent explanation for this, why will the club not reply to requests for clarification. I wish they would, 'cos it would save me a load of time and effort.

Jawgap

Esroh wrote: »

Jakes Cottage as its called is used as the Islaneady Community Centre.And the only facility within the area apart from the Gaa Club. If the grant had been allocated directly to the Community Centre would people have even noticed.
If the Cycling Club is taking responsibility for the running of spinning classes under the auspicious of the Community Council then why should the application be questioned.

......because it came out of the health fund.....if it had come from the sports fund, fair enough.

You reckon that since no sports club has accessed that fund before, we'll suddenly start seeing others being successful?

Or maybe put it another way.......if there was €20k of health funding available for Mayo, was this the best use of it?

Esroh

Jawgap wrote: »

......because it came out of the health fund.....if it had come from the sports fund, fair enough.

You reckon that since no sports club has accessed that fund before, we'll suddenly start seeing others being successful?

Or maybe put it another way.......if there was €20k of health funding available for Mayo, was this the best use of it?

Jawgap. I am sure there probably was. But that is why I asked about Community Centres/Sports Centres.
I don't think its a right if this grant was given on a nod and a wink from Enda or Michael Ring as they both would have an intrest in keeping people in Islandeady happy

spyderski

Jacks Cottage didn't receive the grant. The cycling club did.

spyderski

Weepsie wrote: »

I know. I was merely pointing out that it is privately owned, that alone might prevent it from being called a community centre.

I was trying to dig to see if they got any funding to restore the Cottage, couldn't find much other than stuff about heritage events it was involved with and a loose connection or two to Michael Ring. Said president was presented with a Presidential Certificate in 2014 for his involvement in "the Gathering". It was presented by one Michael Ring

Sorry, didn't mean to seem abrupt.

The whole ownership of the "community centre" muddies the waters further, if anything.

AndrewJRenko

Jawgap wrote: »

spyderski wrote: »

TBH things like this have always bothered me, but I've never done anything about them before. This is different because 1. It's so bloody blatant and 2. It's cycling related.

I agree it will be interesting to see is there's a difference between the application and the PRO's comments.

Only thing is, it sticks out so badly, that one would presume the politicians will have covered their tracks, knowing there might be controversy given the clubs' location..

From my own experience you can guarantee there is no 'smoking gun' - the Minister's Office calls, it never emails

So FOI the phone logs then

AndrewJRenko

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Jawgap wrote: »

No, it was changed recently - they're now obliged to charge for the time taken if it exceeds an hour and Health have been pretty zealous about it!

Mind you, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to extract the file, copy it, review it for personal info and send it on.

I imagine the charge is there to stop every tom dick and harry phoning up with flippant requests, not because of the time or cost.

The best solution to this is for the Dept to publish everything on their website by default - every email, every agenda, every set of minutes - probably the most effective way to hide stuff too.

Jawgap

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So FOI the phone logs then

You'd get a ream of numbers and the Department is under no obligation to tell you who owns which DDI extension. You'd also need to know the number of the person who made the call.

Plus, that would only be evidence that a call was made, not what was discussed.

Anyway, in my experience it's never as explicit as 'give so-and-so a grant' - the call might simply have been to check that the application was received, which is really code for it being "important" to the politician.

CramCycle

Jawgap wrote: »

Anyway, in my experience it's never as explicit as 'give so-and-so a grant' - the call might simply have been to check that the application was received, which is really code for it being "important" to the politician.

Just one more thing...

ted1

So are any if you clubs preparing the paperwork to apply for s grant hit next year ?

AndrewJRenko

Jawgap wrote: »

You'd get a ream of numbers and the Department is under no obligation to tell you who owns which DDI extension. You'd also need to know the number of the person who made the call.

So FOI the phone logs of calls made from the Minister's office over the relevant period and the extension list then.

Jawgap wrote: »

Plus, that would only be evidence that a call was made, not what was discussed.

Anyway, in my experience it's never as explicit as 'give so-and-so a grant' - the call might simply have been to check that the application was received, which is really code for it being "important" to the politician.

Timing is everything. A call from the Minister's office BEFORE decisions have been made would be very interesting.

CramCycle

ted1 wrote: »

So are any if you clubs preparing the paperwork to apply for s grant hit next year ?

Yes, once SpiderSki gets the FOI and I see the language and tact used. I actually have some ideas for what it could be used for that would actually be within the remit of the grant, although it is unclear if that is necessary :pac:

Donal55

CramCycle wrote: »

Yes, once SpiderSki gets the FOI and I see the language and tact used. I actually have some ideas for what it could be used for that would actually be within the remit of the grant, although it is unclear if that is necessary :pac:

Have you a taoiseach or minister in your constituency?Otherwise you're wasting your time.

CramCycle

Donal55 wrote: »

Have you a taoiseach or minister in your constituency?Otherwise you're wasting your time.

A minister

Donal55

CramCycle wrote: »

A minister

Sorted!

Jawgap

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So FOI the phone logs of calls made from the Minister's office over the relevant period and the extension list then.

Timing is everything. A call from the Minister's office BEFORE decisions have been made would be very interesting.

Not really, I'm sure calls go back and forward all the time.

You might be following the money, but this isn't Watergate

i think a fair idea of how this grant was awarded will come from an examination of the application - if there's a "now-why-didn't-we-think-of-that" moment it'll be fair to say the probability of political interference was low.

ted1

Jawgap wrote: »

if there's a "now-why-didn't-we-think-of-that" moment it'll be fair to say the probability of political interference was low.

I persume that there will be.

Farmers are great at getting grants, probably a few farmers in the club.

Jawgap

ted1 wrote: »

I persume that there will be.

Farmers are great at getting grants, probably a few farmers in the club.

Yes from the relevant scheme - you don't see them banging in grant applications, for example, for money to operate community radio stations as part of their farming operations because it's going to broadcast farming information and is therefore relevant to agricultural development

CramCycle

ted1 wrote: »

I persume that there will be.

Farmers are great at getting grants, probably a few farmers in the club.

The grants that farmers get and the grants listed are different not only in what they are for but also in what they are. Grants dispensed to farmers are typically available to all farmers who meet the minimum number of criteria, be it heads of cattle, acreage, sealed off land etc. In this respect they are very different to the grant from the lotto which is competitive and not all minimum requirement applicants will get it.

spyderski

ted1 wrote: »

I persume that there will be.

Farmers are great at getting grants, probably a few farmers in the club.

Farmers' Teagasc advisers are great at getting grants. Farmers themselves, not so much, in my experience.

thekooman

spyderski wrote: »

That would be funny if it wasn't most likely the truth. Great way to spend what little money the health service has. :mad:

if the 20k got 5 more people to join the club (or existing members) and it stopped them clogging up our hospitals due to increased fitness and less health problems in future years i think it would be a great investment?? i for one have dropped 18kg since i was in college about 15 years ago, all down to joining a club.

spyderski

thekooman wrote: »

if the 20k got 5 more people to join the club (or existing members) and it stopped them clogging up our hospitals due to increased fitness and less health problems in future years i think it would be a great investment?? i for one have dropped 18kg since i was in college about 15 years ago, all down to joining a club.

By that logic every club in the country should get €4k per new or existing member. Or is it just Mayo clubs you think deserve it?

thekooman

spyderski wrote: »

By that logic every club in the country should get €4k per new or existing member. Or is it just Mayo clubs you think deserve it?

they applied for it and got it (how they got it has been done to death and ive things for doing)... i wish our club had applied for it.

ted1

spyderski wrote: »

Farmers' Teagasc advisers are great at getting grants. Farmers themselves, not so much, in my experience.

I know a lad getting a grant for acerage in Wicklow which includes common land 26k a year and the lad does nothing. Has his brother minding a few sheep for him.

RayCun

ted1 wrote: »

Farmers are great at getting grants, probably a few farmers in the club.

Farmers produce food.
Without food, we die.
Therefore food is necessary for health.
Therefore, all farmers should get health grants!

ted1

spyderski wrote: »

That would be funny if it wasn't most likely the truth. Great way to spend what little money the health service has. :mad:

The health service has plenty of money. 24% of total spend . So 1 in 4 tax euros is spent on health.

But this comes from a different budget.

spyderski

Meanwhile, also in Mayo..

http://www.mayonews.ie/news/29080-services-for-children-with-autism-under-huge-pressure

spyderski

More funding is urgently needed to provide adequate services for children with autism in Mayo, according to Western Care Executive Director Bernard O’Regan.
According to Mr O’Regan, autism services are ‘under huge pressure’, and Western Care is struggling to provide these and other services with its current funding levels.
“The resources available at the moment are the same as the last number of years, even though there’s been a significant increase in the number of children [diagnosed with autism].

spyderski

Now defend the €20k to the well-connected cycling club.

ted1

spyderski wrote: »

Now defend the €20k to the well-connected cycling club.

There totally unrelated, you are really digging now

spyderski

You see, I have no idea what it's paying for. The PRO says it's for spin bikes, but as they wouldn't qualify for funding, I can only guess what the purpose is.

spyderski

ted1 wrote: »

There totally unrelated, you are really digging now

It's unrelated that a worthy cause such as that is crying out for funding, while the local Cycling Club get a present of €20k from the Dept of Health? You're the one stretching credulity here.

spyderski

Is it just me or has the page with the grants listed been removed from the Dept. website ?

http://health.gov.ie/about-us/national-lottery-grant-scheme/list-of-approved-national-lottery-grants/

smacl

spyderski wrote: »

Is it just me or has the page with the grants listed been removed from the Dept. website ?

http://health.gov.ie/about-us/national-lottery-grant-scheme/list-of-approved-national-lottery-grants/

Looks more like poor web design than anything shifty. It is here as a PDF; http://health.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2016-Department-of-Health-Lottery-Grants.pdf Page with previous years awards here; http://health.gov.ie/about-us/national-lottery-grant-scheme/

In the context of the other beneficiaries the sole cycling club does seem entirely out of place.

spyderski

Yeah, seems like an error. I was actually looking to see how much Western Care received from the Dept. fund.

Coincidentally it was also €20,000, same as for the spin bikes....

"The current service for children under the age of six, for instance, has the same level of staffing now for up to 80 children as it did four years ago for 35-40 children.”
"With 400 adult service users, it is hard to believe that Western Care only has a physiotherapist funded for one day a week."

Now, if you can justify this, or think it's OK, good luck to you.

@ ted1 - have a little think about it before defending the indefensible yet again.

ted1

spyderski wrote: »

You see, I have no idea what it's paying for. The PRO says it's for spin bikes, but as they wouldn't qualify for funding, I can only guess what the purpose is.

The application would state what its for, spending on something else would be fraud and possible a criminal matter.
Think carefully if defamation laws and answer this, do you think that they are spending money grant money on something other than what it was assigned for ?

ted1

spyderski wrote: »

Yeah, seems like an error. I was actually looking to see how much Western Care received from the Dept. fund.

Coincidentally it was also €20,000, same as for the spin bikes....

"The current service for children under the age of six, for instance, has the same level of staffing now for up to 80 children as it did four years ago for 35-40 children.”
"With 400 adult service users, it is hard to believe that Western Care only has a physiotherapist funded for one day a week."

Now, if you can justify this, or think it's OK, good luck to you.

@ ted1 - have a little think about it before defending the indefensible yet again.

It's wholly irrelevant as the option wasn't to give to A or B.
Did the autism group apply for a grant? The money was from lottery funds, maybe the autism group don't meet the criteria. Maybe the management there need to look at how they ask for money.

He who dares , wins.

Beasty

spyderski & ted1 - can we leave this particular head to head there

Any questions, please PM me - do not respond to this warning in-thread

Thanks

spyderski

ted1 wrote: »

It's wholly irrelevant as the option wasn't to give to A or B.
Did the autism group apply for a grant? The money was from lottery funds, maybe the autism group don't meet the criteria. Maybe the management there need to look at how they ask for money.

He who dares , wins.

They did apply. And got it. The Minister decided they deserved the same as the cycling club.

spyderski

Thanks Weepsie, a succinct overview of this situation, and exactly why it is wrong in the extreme.

mugsymugsy

Do they have to provide receipts / show what the funding was spent on? Under FOI do they have to show how the 20k was spent? Be interesting to see the breakdown of it.

ted1

mugsymugsy wrote: »

Do they have to provide receipts / show what the funding was spent on? Under FOI do they have to show how the 20k was spent? Be interesting to see the breakdown of it.

I would persume that they need to keep them. They would not fall under FOI. Spending money on something other than submitted in the grant would be fraud.

spyderski

I suppose it depends how specific they were in the application. If they said "fitness classes" there is nothing to stop them paying whatever instructor they want, or buying the equipment necessary for those classes. We really need to see the application to see the intention.

As far as I know, there are random audits carried out to check the funds are being spent correctly.

I have no interest in falling out with people over this, I have a genuine concern regarding the funding, and am making it my business to investigate further. Hopefully my suspicions will be unfounded, and there is a perfectly legitimate explanation why they got funding so obviously earmarked for specific groups.

smacl

Bit more in the IT today here and a bit more here, which links an interesting study 'Spokes or strokes? Clientelism and cycling funding in Ireland'. Unfortunately, I've only access to the abstract, but looks like it could be a good read.

spyderski

The report seems to relate more to the provision of cycle-commuting infrastructure than leisure cycling, but interesting to see there are more sceptical people out there....

Jawgap

mugsymugsy wrote: »

Do they have to provide receipts / show what the funding was spent on? Under FOI do they have to show how the 20k was spent? Be interesting to see the breakdown of it.

ted1 wrote: »

I would persume that they need to keep them. They would not fall under FOI. Spending money on something other than submitted in the grant would be fraud.

Actually, they wouldn't have to provide receipts but they would have to keep them (for 5 years iirc) in case of audit.

They will, if not selected for audit in the next 12 months, have to submit a cert signed by their auditors that the money was spent on what it was supposed to spent on - easy do that when they get the club accounts done in the run up to their AGM.

Anything submitted to the Dept would be amenable to FOI.