Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Supercell

Government are talking out of both sides of their mouths.

Mollser raises a great point, what if this just encourages drug use as it appears to have potentially done in Scotland?, talk about shooting ourselves in the foot (and elsewhere!).

People who want to get their kicks are going to do it one way or another, if drugs become cheaper then its obvious thats where they are going to turn to.

Our alcohol useage per head is dropping anyhow, education is the way here. Punative measures such as price gouging off licence alcohol on one hand whilst allowing the nightclubs to stay open later than ever on the other is not sending the right message at all, its got nothing at all to do with our health - that much is clear.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117894956#Comment_117894956

You can't do drugs as frequently as you drink though.

The only way you can protest this is boycotting the bar (or at least cutting back on the amount of times you go) and letting the bars know why.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117917307#Comment_117917307

You can't do drugs as frequently as you drink though.

really?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918210#Comment_117918210

Well, not as safely anyway :)

That said it depends on the drug. Weed you could probably do, but then you'd want a drink anyway. Cocaine, until your money runs out (but then you'd be better off paying for the MUP booze anyway)

Potential-Monke

Weed you definitely can do! It's what I replaced alcohol with.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922148#Comment_117922148

While weed might be a replacement for alcohol in certain circumstances for some people it won't be a useful substitute in all cases.

I like a glass or two of wine with a meal and a nice cold beer at a barbecue.

MUP is going to force me to pay more to enjoy these simple pleasures neither of which can be substituted by weed.

Jeremy Sproket

Why don't they simply add extra excise to it? Like a 5% or extra 10% on the prince of all alcohol?

If Dutch Gold is brought up to the same price as a bottle of premium beer such as Duvel, what will happen to the price of Duvel? It will distort the market. I hope it is tested in Luxembourg.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926689#Comment_117926689

If they add excise it would raise the pub price as well. This rubbish is being brought in to protect the pubs at the expense of off licences.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926689#Comment_117926689

Because this measure is entirely about helping publicans (and old style off-licences) by increasing the price of off-trade (particularly supermarket) sales. Nothing else.

Its wrapped in a nonsense of public health claims and backed up in that regard by neo-prohibitionists, but its solely there to try boost pub sales versus home drinking.

Potential-Monke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923350#Comment_117923350

At least you'll still be able to legally buy it. I'm hoping once weed is legalised that it will become cheaper, but I don't trust the government to do that right. And they totally can be substituted by weed, but I recommend to smoke it before the meal, it'll be waaaaaay better then! And you can save your liver and drink water or cordial of some sort. :pac:

I jest, I know it can't replace it for everyone, and I'll be honest and say giving up drink precludes you from a lot of events, unless you're able to put up with drinkers while staying sober (I can't, even with weed, I can't deal with drinkers anymore....). Which ties into the stoner stereotype of doing nothing and going nowhere, but if it was legal I could start being social again, just in whatever weed circles would emerge. If I never drink again, it'll be too soon, but I know I will be at inevitable weddings, etc that are coming. Sigh.

TinCanMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117871831#Comment_117871831

They need to talk to the dealers and bring in a MUP for illegal drugs to prevent an uptake when people move away from alcohol.

Jeremy Sproket

I'd be interested to see whether cannabis is legalised here and if most of the rest of the EU start falling in line, when will Ireland (if at all)?

Most of western Europe seems to have either decriminalised it or it's illegal but essentially unenforced.

In Western Europe, Ireland, the UK, France, Norway and Sweden seem to be the only countries where it's illegal and people are punished for consumption or possession. The vintners would fiercely resist any attempt to legalise it here. I wonder would an EU-wide directive ever make it legal across the whole bloc?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Map-of-world-cannabis-laws.svg/1920px-Map-of-world-cannabis-laws.svg.png

cavan_man2021

Been to the supermarket not naming names but big one with the extra. Anyway I have noticed that they have put the wine up in price. Not just a few cent here there but like some bottles have went up 3 to 10 euro in price .

It's getting scandalous the price increase on alcohol and then we will have a minimum pricing increase in January.

Richard Hillman

January will be fun. Peak of winter. Threat of lockdowns. Electricity blackouts. Gas prices through the roof. You'd need a drink to comfort yourself and escape life.......don't worry, government have your misery covered there too 😆

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926724#Comment_117926724

If they add excise it would provide more monies for the health service.

MUP means that supermarkets are forced to pocket the increase.

Unless people increase their overall spending it's pretty much VAT neutral unless people stop eating food.

CPI includes booze. MUP will lead to inflation. Not sure what it's linked to here but in the UK pension increases would be determined by CPI if neither of the other metrics are higher.

https://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/methods/consumerpriceindex/Consumer_Price_Index_(CPI)_and_Harmonised_Index_of_Consumer_Prices_(HICP)_expenditure_weights_by_COICOP_Division_2017-2021.xlsx

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969394#Comment_117969394

protecting publicans has a higher priority than our health service.

odyssey06

Minimum alcohol pricing desperately needed as alcohol consumption falling:

Alcohol consumption fell by 10.8% in the first half of 2021, compared with the same period last year, research from Revenue Clearance found. While the fall is a result of the closure of the hospitality industry, according to Drinks Ireland, this is also in line which with the long-term trend of consumption declining in Ireland.

Read more: https://www.shelflife.ie/alcohol-consumption-fell-by-almost-11-in-the-first-half-of-2021/#ixzz78Rz4yQLe

techman1

I think MUP will be put on the back burner precisely because it will lead to an increase in inflation, already soaring energy prices are causing inflation , the government are desperate to keep inflation statistic as low as possible so they wont be hit with a wage spiral . Germany has the highest inflation rate in 30 years, the government worried ECB be forced to move up interest ratres

Quackster

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

The commencement order was signed months ago to give the sector the necessary lead-in time to make the required adjustments so there's no going back now.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985349#Comment_117985349

Not an irreversible process.

Quackster

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

No, but much less likely to happen, as opposed to if the commencement order had yet been signed (in which case all it would take would be political inertia to put it on the long-finger).

Quantum Erasure

so, is this not coming till January? I was worried they might announce something in the budget

odyssey06

In a not surprising finding... MUP has no effect on crime:

MINIMUM PRICING FOR alcohol had little impact on drink-related crime following its introduction in Scotland, a UK study has found.

Researchers looked at trends in alcohol-related crime, disorder and public nuisance after minimum unit pricing (MUP) was introduced in May 2018.

These issues were declining before MUP and its introduction had no statistically significant impact on the trajectory, they found.

https://www.thejournal.ie/minimum-alcohol-pricing-had-little-impact-on-drink-related-crime-study-finds-5571802-Oct2021/

Timistry

Bump! Only a few weeks to go until all offers will be a thing of the past. STOCK UP!

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118266445#Comment_118266445

Not at the moment but there is political support for the idea there.

Sinn Fein supported it in the Oireachtas and the DUP are historically a bit averse to "the devil's buttermilk".

While they are making up their mind we can make our cross border pilgrimages.

I was at a party last night and a Gin and Tonic was 13 euros. 13 euros. And this was a nice hotel in kilkenny but it wasnt a wine bar in Dublin 4.

The vintners don't need help. Some decent PR maybe. Prices like that would make one think twice about a night out.

Potential-Monke

Is less people drinking a bad thing?

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270504#Comment_118270504

Is getting pissed once or twice a bad thing for those of us who want to?

This is another flipping stealth tax brought in under the guise of bettering our health.

Potential-Monke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270513#Comment_118270513

So, the slight increases are going to massively negatively affect getting pissed once or twice a week? You still can, it'll just be slightly more expensive. If the increases mean you can no longer afford to do it, then I'd be worrying if you currently can afford to do it...

Yeah, it's another stealth tax, but do we expect anything less? Christ, fuel is far more important than the gargle, but we're rolling over and accepting those increases, but touch the holy alcohol and people lose their sh!t.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270532#Comment_118270532

Lol, I left out "a year", jesus I look like an awful wino now.

It does make an awful difference when it comes to xmas drink deals, gifts, and bar/restaurant prices. Its total bollocks along with the sugar tax and other taxes that really only will affect those already suffering income wise.

Fuel is massively important of course - id imagine it has its own thread though.

Potential-Monke

Most people would consider once or twice a week normal..... ANd if it's once/twice a year, well, it's not going to make a difference really overall. You're right, it will mainly affect those addicted to it. So possibly not a bad thing if they reduce their consumption. Yeah, it will result in others deciding alcohol is more important than food/bills/children, etc, but that's a that person problem...

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270553#Comment_118270553

The frequency for most people is beside the point. The point I am trying, and seemingly failing to make, is its just another crap tax inflicted on us for no really good reason. And we all know any funds raised will be used for nothing to do with alcohol related health services.

Do you think it will stop any alcoholics from drinking?

I think we may see a big increase in homemade booze and potentially see cases like this - https://www.rferl.org/a/bootleg-alcohol-poisoning-russia/31500809.html

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270565#Comment_118270565

It's not a tax.

The extra money goes to the manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers.

The only gain for the Revenue is the VAT.

Even that is likely to be just displaced from other discretionary spending.

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270584#Comment_118270584

Its a stealth tax as you have pointed out yourself. You and I will pay more to everyone and get less if it works as its designed.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270600#Comment_118270600

We will definitely pay more and have no choice in the matter if we want to buy off sale drinks.

When I said it's not a tax I meant it's not in the normal meaning of a tax.

The Government are forcing the drinks trade to take the extra money from us and allowing them to keep the bulk of it.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270584#Comment_118270584

Alcohol is bad. Let's reward the people who make it and sell it.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118266445#Comment_118266445

For some

For the likes of myself it's 5+ hours away.

LawBoy2018

It's quite a regressive measure, in that working class people will be disproportionally affected. It had little effect in Scotland and I would imagine it will have a similar success rate in Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270532#Comment_118270532

Remember how USC was a temporary tax? 10 years later, I paid 900 euro in USC. last month. And then I got paid for my new job and got charge - 900 euro.

You talk about slight increases. Do you think it will remain as a slight increase?

Potential-Monke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270751#Comment_118270751

I don't care for alcohol anymore, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

macraignil

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270667#Comment_118270667

1339 drug related deaths in Scotland in 2020 which was a 5% increase since 2019 according to this government publication. Not what I would call a success rate anyway.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270553#Comment_118270553

Addicts can not reduce their consumption. A fully addicted person will seek it any time day or night, but at times might go into dangerous medically unsupervised self-detoxes. It is a state of total denial and a parting from the realities of what’s going on in life. It’s an all or nothing scenario, and seems to be mostly genetically underscored, although to become an alcoholic you of course need access to it, and the cheaper it is the more accessible it is, especially to more meagre pockets. Starting young is another trigger factor, especially when the brain has more plasticity. Nobody sets out to become dependent. So slipping up the price gradually enough is probably the only way to allow those addicted to have the best essay access to it until/unless some time they make a decision for themselves to seek treatment.

At the same time if it starts to look unaffordable to those starting out on life’s adult journey, people may look to other priorities or if they have alcohol addiction genes, then it might be delayed and maybe less damage done if they are to eventually recover. Pricing alcohol beyond the reach of moderation is no bad thing, although I could then see people taking to the home brew as was fashionable in the 70s/80s.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118271674#Comment_118271674

At the same time if it starts to look unaffordable to those starting out on life’s adult journey, people may look to other priorities or if they have alcohol addiction genes, then it might be delayed and maybe less damage done if they are to eventually recover.

This is it exactly.

You not going to fix the current alcoholic, but if the entry price for the next generation is higher you have a better chance and changing behavior.

But as I've always said around here, you have to get rid of the visibility of alcohol brands to, in the form of advertising and sponsorship bans.

It worked with smoking.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118271674#Comment_118271674

At the same time if it starts to look unaffordable to those starting out on life’s adult journey, people may look to other priorities or if they have alcohol addiction genes, then it might be delayed and maybe less damage done if they are to eventually recover. Pricing alcohol beyond the reach of moderation is no bad thing, although I could then see people taking to the home brew as was fashionable in the 70s/80s.

Young teens willing to experiment with alcohol, often start with raiding the parents drinks cabinet. Those that don't, and those that have moved on from the drinks cabinet, usually go for the cheapest option. If it is priced out of reach for them, then you can bet that they are far more likely to pay the local dealer for the cheaper option to experiment with. Maybe start with hash or weed, and then some more experimentation with whatever is on offer. Unregulated, untested and illegal.

While I don't disagree with everything you are saying, I think education and better rehab programs would have a better effect. Punishing the masses (incidentally - while rewarding the suppliers) for the effects on a few could be applied to anything. Driving, Cycling, Swimming etc. while they will get you fit, every time you do it again you are increasing your chances of getting hurt or dying from it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118271754#Comment_118271754

I am absolutely all on for education programs.

And equally all on for easy-to-access rehab programs for those who have de used enough is enough. But with addiction the adage applies completely that you can bring a horse to water but cannot make him drink it. Maybe an unfortunate turn of phrase for alcoholism (but in latest medical parlance now known as Alcohol Use Disorder or abbreviated to AUD) but for a disease that isn’t caused by lack of willpower it would sure take a hell of a lot of it to get out on the good side.

I would not at all mind if alcohol had a specific tax, a high one, rather than an increase in VAT which was ring-fenced for medical treatment and therapy. Now it is very difficult to be specific in every instance that a disease or condition were caused mainly by alcohol, but maybe the tax could be forwarded to mental health services in general who would be picking up after treatment for inadvertent detox DTs/seizures which are treated on an acute basis in general hospitals, only to have recurrence where the individual has not yet voluntarily engaged with medical services.

lack of expedient availability of recovery services can only be (to some extent) off-putting to those who might be musing over the prospect of making use of them, and a great auld “excuse” for putting potential recovery on the very long finger. It’s the way the human mind works, find an exit strategy, and more-fold where there’s an addiction at play.

I don’t think any of us want the greedy major vintners to the winners here.

I’m in Romania atm, where it is impossible to get a drink out, at all. There’s not even mulled wine at the Christmas Markets. All alcohol consumed must be done before 8pm and with a major meal. I qualified for a beer upon ordering a T-bone steak last night. To put it in context, under 40% are vaccinated, so there is a panic on and the government here decided one safety measure was not to allow most people to get drunk.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272581#Comment_118272581

"I would not at all mind if alcohol had a specific tax, a high one,"

It's called Excise Duty. Overall it hasn't increased much in a quarter of a century from 27th day of January, 1994, at the rate of £15.65 per hectolitre per cent. of alcohol in the beer (€19.87) to now when it's €22.55 per hectolitre per cent of alcohol in the beer compared to an EU minimum level of €0

An increase of 13.5% over 25 years.

Excluding VAT the effect of MUP is to force supermarket and distributors to take most of the rest of the retail price as pure profit.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272770#Comment_118272770

Yep, I’m thinking much more of a health related tax. I enjoy my pint/glass of wine etc, but have no quibble about having to pay for it if a decent amount goes towards medical services. I have witnessed enough of the destructive effects of alcoholism to know to know that services should be immediately available when somebody gets the notion to seek them out, as should all mental/physical health services.

Vat, excise etc is one aspect, but to be fair to the taxpayer a percentage should go straight to health services.

dubrov

So what is the latest on this?

Is it a done deal already or do TDs still need to vote on it?

I’ve intervened specifically in 3 situations through course of my work relating to excessive alcohol consumption. One, a staff member I supervised who came into addiction, and could no longer function in their work as they were interfacing with public with a bottle of vodka under the desk and totally incapable of functioning: job was lost and it was a nemesis: very happy to report they recovered over a decade and have carved out a great career since. I intervened also when a new born baby was left to the care of a then 9 year old daughter when parents couldn’t be roused from drink, whom I caught up with many years later and with whom I enjoyed a great chat. The outcome was good in the long run, was told I had done the exact right thing when it was needed, but it makes for huge unpopularity at the outset.

But really it’s only possible to intervene from the perspective of distance. That staff member or perhaps another adult member of the child’s family could not have thrown a spoke in successfully with authorities. One common denominator among the alcoholics I have known, they were all damned intelligent people, above average. Being intelligent or otherwise has zero connection with becoming addicted.