Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Leroy42

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and MUP will do nothing to change any of this.

Fine, but that is not the point of my post (I think from yesterday).

People are posting saying that do gooders, sanctimonious etc are making out that there is a problem, the implication that there isn't.

Whilst one can argue about the solution, many on here won't even agree that there is a problem to start with, despite the numerous reports and statistics showing that there is.

Whether the extent of the problem warrants such a initiative is a different matter.

listermint

Leroy42 wrote: »

Fine, but that is not the point of my post (I think from yesterday).

People are posting saying that do gooders, sanctimonious etc are making out that there is a problem, the implication that there isn't.

Whilst one can argue about the solution, many on here won't even agree that there is a problem to start with, despite the numerous reports and statistics showing that there is.

Whether the extent of the problem warrants such a initiative is a different matter.

You have been given facts about youth consumption it appears to be your opinion throughout the thread we have problem with drink our youth consumption demonstrates we don't.

You show us where our problems are. If it consists of you standing on the street with your own opinion then sorry for saying you are selling opinions not facts just like the TDs that voted for this.

MerryHell

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yet you give no evidence at all to back up your position that Ireland does not have an issue with alcohol.

Drinkaware is a drinks body funded org, so if anything they are likely to reduce the numbers, but either way they are just a sample. There are hundreds of studies done, I am not going to go and post links to all of them since you completely ignored the ones I did post anyway.

Drinking is not just confined to younger drinkers, though of course that is an issue in terms of habits etc. But picking one segment does not prove your position. We have certainly improved in recent years, but that if from a top position. We still have a long way to go.

Ireland has a huge obesity problem - should we jack up the price of food? Penalise Restaurants ?

The issue is not whether alcohol can be harmful and whether or not some people abuse it. It is still a legal product and it's price should be set by the free market not by the Nanny State.

Leroy42

listermint wrote: »

You have been given facts about youth consumption it appears to be your opinion throughout the thread we have problem with drink our youth consumption demonstrates we don't.

You show us where our problems are. If it consists of you standing on the street with your own opinion then sorry for saying you are selling opinions not facts just like the TDs that voted for this.

Why do you keep talking about my opinion? I have provided reports and links. This is not my opinion, it is a fact that Ireland drink more than many other countries.

You accused me of being selective, yet you seem only to want to discuss youth drinking, as that is the sector that seems to back up your opinion. But that is not the only sector to consider.

We may have fallen back from the very top position, but that, as I already stated, does not mean the problem is solved.

Here is another link

https://ourworldindata.org/alcohol-consumption

And another

https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/alcohol/by-country/

Leroy42

MerryHell wrote: »

Ireland has a huge obesity problem - should we jack up the price of food? Penalise Restaurants ?

The issue is not whether alcohol can be harmful and whether or not some people abuse it. It is still a legal product and it's price should be set by the free market not by the Nanny State.

As a society, we are starting to take some steps to try and deal with the issue of obesity. Sugar tax, aiming to reduce fast food advertising locations and times, curbs on location of fast food etc.

But they all come with there own issues and none of them, on their own, offer a solution to the problem.

There are lots of legal products that face rules on how much and when and to whom they can be sold. But just as cigarettes are legal and restricted since we now understand the real effects of them, people are starting see the real negative effects of alcohol on society at large and thus many are of the view that some form of control should be implemented for the betterment of society.

This principle is already accepted in terms of drinking age and locations. This is merely another facet of that principle.

ohnonotgmail

Leroy42 wrote: »

Why do you keep talking about my opinion? I have provided reports and links. This is not my opinion, it is a fact that Ireland drink more than many other countries.

You accused me of being selective, yet you seem only to want to discuss youth drinking, as that is the sector that seems to back up your opinion. But that is not the only sector to consider.

We may have fallen back from the very top position, but that, as I already stated, does not mean the problem is solved.

Here is another link

https://ourworldindata.org/alcohol-consumption

And another

https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/alcohol/by-country/

We also drink a lot less than many other countries. Currently 21st in the world.



https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/who-drinks-the-most-alcohol-consumption-by-country.html

Leroy42

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

We also drink a lot less than many other countries. Currently 21st in the world.



https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/who-drinks-the-most-alcohol-consumption-by-country.html

You do know how many countries there are in the world? 21st means we are at the top end. This is exactly my point. Just because we are no longer the highest doesn't mean there isn't an issue to be dealt with.

Fr Tod Umptious

Leroy42 wrote: »

You do know how many countries there are in the world? 21st means we are at the top end. This is exactly my point. Just because we are no longer the highest doesn't mean there isn't an issue to be dealt with.

190 something

ohnonotgmail

Leroy42 wrote: »

You do know how many countries there are in the world? 21st means we are at the top end. This is exactly my point. Just because we are no longer the highest doesn't mean there isn't an issue to be dealt with.

Well if you look practically all of the countries in the top half are european. we jsut tend to drink more than asia or africa. we are 21st in the world but 18th in europe. We drink less or the same as most of our european neighbours.

Leroy42

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Well if you look practically all of the countries in the top half are european. we jsut tend to drink more than asia or africa. we are 21st in the world but 18th in europe. We drink less or the same as most of our european neighbours.

And? What does that show? The old "if your friend jumped off the bridge" comes to mind.

We have less roads deaths that many other countries, so are no deaths no longer an issue? We have less gun related murders than other countries, so gun violence shouldn't be talked about?

The fact is that we have high alcohol intake. Are we happy we the current situation, should we look to increase it or decrease it?

That is the core question to answer. Many of this thread seem to be of the opinion that there is no issue, yet the reports and statistics do not agree with them.

ohnonotgmail

Leroy42 wrote: »

And? What does that show? The old "if your friend jumped off the bridge" comes to mind.

We have less roads deaths that many other countries, so are no deaths no longer an issue? We have less gun related murders than other countries, so gun violence shouldn't be talked about?

The fact is that we have high alcohol intake. Are we happy we the current situation, should we look to increase it or decrease it?

That is the core question to answer. Many of this thread seem to be of the opinion that there is no issue, yet the reports and statistics do not agree with them.

It shows that we do not have a serious issue relative to our neighbours. Alcohol consumption is on the wane. MUP will have no effect either way on consumption.

odyssey06

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

We also drink a lot less than many other countries. Currently 21st in the world.
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/who-drinks-the-most-alcohol-consumption-by-country.html

I would not place any weight whatsoever on stats for non OECD countries.

ohnonotgmail

odyssey06 wrote: »

I would not place any weight whatsoever on stats for non OECD countries.

You're probably correct with that. But if we just look at the data for Europe we are way down the list.

listermint

Leroy42 wrote: »

And? What does that show? The old "if your friend jumped off the bridge" comes to mind.

We have less roads deaths that many other countries, so are no deaths no longer an issue? We have less gun related murders than other countries, so gun violence shouldn't be talked about?

The fact is that we have high alcohol intake. Are we happy we the current situation, should we look to increase it or decrease it?

That is the core question to answer. Many of this thread seem to be of the opinion that there is no issue, yet the reports and statistics do not agree with them.

Back to opinion again.

We drink far less than all our comparative neighbours.

Yet for you it appears one drink is too much

I get it your some sort of t total advocate and want to project on to everyone else.

10000maniacs

Leroy42 wrote: »

And? What does that show? The old "if your friend jumped off the bridge" comes to mind.

We have less roads deaths that many other countries, so are no deaths no longer an issue? We have less gun related murders than other countries, so gun violence shouldn't be talked about?

The fact is that we have high alcohol intake. Are we happy we the current situation, should we look to increase it or decrease it?

That is the core question to answer. Many of this thread seem to be of the opinion that there is no issue, yet the reports and statistics do not agree with them.

I am not convinced Ireland has an alcohol problem that is any worse than any other country within the EU. But even if we did, why should moderate drinkers who buy the discounted slab of 24 cans for Christmas or Easter be penalised because of the addictions of others?

Leroy42

listermint wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

And? What does that show? The old "if your friend jumped off the bridge" comes to mind.

We have less roads deaths that many other countries, so are no deaths no longer an issue? We have less gun related murders than other countries, so gun violence shouldn't be talked about?

The fact is that we have high alcohol intake. Are we happy we the current situation, should we look to increase it or decrease it?

That is the core question to answer. Many of this thread seem to be of the opinion that there is no issue, yet the reports and statistics do not agree with them.

Back to opinion again.

We drink far less than all our comparative neighbours.

Yet for you it appears one drink is too much

I get it your some sort of t total advocate and want to project on to everyone else.

Omg, I have provided numerous links to reports and data to back up my position.

You have provided one statistic about one segment of the population.

Show me where I said one drink is too many? You have completely failed to offer anything to back up your debunking of the position that Ireland has an issue with alcohol.

The best anyone can claim is that we are not the worst and in line with our neighbours. Hardly a position.

You obviously have your position on this and no amount of data or reports are going to shift it. You have convinced yourself that you are right and anybody not agreeing with you is part of some sanctimonious do gooder crowd out to get you.

You even think drinkaware, a lobby set up and paid for by the drinks industry to avoid independent advertising regulation is somehow in on the great conspiracy.

Fr Tod Umptious

10000maniacs wrote: »

I am not convinced Ireland has an alcohol problem that is any worse than any other country within the EU. But even if we did, why should moderate drinkers who buy the discounted slab of 24 cans for Christmas or Easter be penalised because of the addictions of others?

I fall into that category
A slab at Christmas or once or twice during the year and a couple of cans from Aldi once or twice a month.

But I would not feel penalised by MUP because I spend feck all on booze as it is.

It's the folks who get the slab once a week or more that will feel it.

weldoninhio

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Any source for how much of the smoking decline is due to increased costs rather than better education about the harm they cause?

Smokes in the USA haven’t raised dramatically like they have here, yet the rates of decline are close to the same as Ireland. Someone posted the graph in this thread earlier.

cadaliac

Leroy42 wrote: »

Omg, I have provided numerous links to reports and data to back up my position.

You have provided one statistic about one segment of the population.

Show me where I said one drink is too many? You have completely failed to offer anything to back up your debunking of the position that Ireland has an issue with alcohol.

The best anyone can claim is that we are not the worst and in line with our neighbours. Hardly a position.

You obviously have your position on this and no amount of data or reports are going to shift it. You have convinced yourself that you are right and anybody not agreeing with you is part of some sanctimonious do gooder crowd out to get you.

You even think drinkaware, a lobby set up and paid for by the drinks industry to avoid independent advertising regulation is somehow in on the great conspiracy.

OMG, go away and start your own thread about Irish alcohol consumption and have that argument there. We get it like
We get that the minimum alcohol pricing has serious flaws, like innocent non-raging alcoholic people getting stung when buying beer, which is still legal in this country ....

VinLieger

Leroy42 wrote: »

You obviously have your position on this and no amount of data or reports are going to shift it. You have convinced yourself that you are right and anybody not agreeing with you is part of some sanctimonious do gooder crowd out to get you.

Bit of the pot calling the kettle black here

hatrickpatrick

Apparently they're going to try and bring this in much sooner than expected :mad:

Semi-paywalled original article: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/minimum-alcohol-pricing-move-in-ireland-wont-wait-for-stormont-6wcqn0gsw

Free article citing the Times: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/government-to-press-ahead-with-minimum-alcohol-pricing-plans-897226.html

Wonder if there are enough border area TDs who will get slammed over this to convince the cabinet to delay implementation?

elperello

Red in tooth and claw -

The Vintners Federation of Ireland welcomed the indications that the government will move forward with the plans.

The organisation's CEO, Padraig Cribben says the move is needed to deal with below-cost selling.

"We have been campaigning for a decade now on minimum unit pricing, and we think it's time to move ahead and put in in place because there is no other remedy insofar as in the way the retail trade, particularly the big supermarkets, are operating," he said.

JCX BXC

The funny thing is one would assume alcohol is shocking cheap in Irish supermarkets at the moment - it's not. We are shockingly expensive as it is, travel to countries like Spain and Poland and it's cheap drink galore.

Of all the nanny-statism down through the years, MUP is one of my most hated policies. The drunks will continue to drink, and the 16 year olds will continue to pay €8 for their naggins.

Who will it effect? The person who likes to sit down in the evening and have a nice drink.

Heart Break Kid

Commotion Ocean wrote: »

The government are set to bring in minimum alcohol pricing.
A slab of 24 cans will have a minimum price of €48 and a bottle of spirits will be a minimum of €28.

For someone in the industry, this is going to make promotions really interesting. Especially when you see slabs @ €20 for 24 cans going as early as 5 weeks out before Christmas.

Does anyone know the minimum cost in Northern Ireland? depending how it works, cross boarder trade will increase intensively.

User142

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Apparently they're going to try and bring this in much sooner than expected :mad:

Semi-paywalled original article: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/minimum-alcohol-pricing-move-in-ireland-wont-wait-for-stormont-6wcqn0gsw

Free article citing the Times: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/government-to-press-ahead-with-minimum-alcohol-pricing-plans-897226.html

Wonder if there are enough border area TDs who will get slammed over this to convince the cabinet to delay implementation?

He has to say this. With the hikes they want it just cant work unless its brought in with N.Ireland at the same time.

There isn't a hope with all this Brexit stuff that we are going to see this implemented in the North any time soon. The North isn't going to prioritize this legislation if they ever get back up and running.

I wouldn't worry about this until after the next general election at the very earliest. The current government just doesn't want to admit that their key health policy is basically fully stalled for now.

Leroy42

JCX BXC wrote: »

The funny thing is one would assume alcohol is shocking cheap in Irish supermarkets at the moment - it's not. We are shockingly expensive as it is, travel to countries like Spain and Poland and it's cheap drink galore.

Of all the nanny-statism down through the years, MUP is one of my most hated policies. The drunks will continue to drink, and the 16 year olds will continue to pay €8 for their naggins.

Who will it effect? The person who likes to sit down in the evening and have a nice drink.

Seriously? The most hated for something that you feel will only effect those that sit down for a nice drink?

Even not nice, how much is this going to really costs the infrequent drinker? €100/€200 per year? And this is the most hated of all?

I think you need to get some perspective

KrustyUCC

what is an infrequent drinker?

Lets take a can of grafenwalder from Lidl and somebody having 1 can every day for the year. Not exactly big drinking

Currently €1.05 * 365 = €383.25

MUP €1.89 * 365 = €689.85

Difference €306.60

Same drinker in Spain €0.39 * 365 = €142.35

Difference €547.50

The same drinker in Ireland will pay almost 385% more in Ireland

Doctor Jimbob

elperello wrote: »

Red in tooth and claw -

The Vintners Federation of Ireland welcomed the indications that the government will move forward with the plans.

The organisation's CEO, Padraig Cribben says the move is needed to deal with below-cost selling.

"We have been campaigning for a decade now on minimum unit pricing, and we think it's time to move ahead and put in in place because there is no other remedy insofar as in the way the retail trade, particularly the big supermarkets, are operating," he said.

Hopefully that will put an end to people claiming this is about health. If it was, there's not a chance the vintners would be welcoming it.

Fr Tod Umptious

Every time this thread gets a bump someone shows up with a price comparison between Ireland and Spain/Portugal etc.

We get it, alcohol in Ireland is and has been more expensive than Europe and southern Europe in particular.

A price comparison between Ireland and elsewhere has nothing to do with MUP

KrustyUCC

You agree that Alcohol in Ireland is and has been more expensive than Europe and southern Europe in particular

Yet we are going to substantially increase prices again

Apparently MUP is designed to stop selling alcohol at 'very low prices'

I don't see any 'very low prices' which is where the comparison with our European neighbours comes in

Apparently MUP is a health measure. Horse manure

Is the same identical product more harmful to an Irish person than any other?

Is Grafenwalder 5 times more harmful to an Irish person than a Spanish?

MUP is designed to try to get people back to the pubs

Supporting Irish Pubs: Fine Gael recognises the importance of the Irish pub for tourism, rural jobs and as
a social outlet in communities across the country. We will support the local pub by banning the practice
of below cost selling on alcohol, particularly by large supermarkets and the impact this has had on alcohol
consumption and the viability of pubs.

MUP is going beyond below cost selling on alcohol

Sure MUP works elsewhere?

FactCheck: Is minimum unit alcohol pricing "proven" to work?
Health Promotion Minister Marcella Corcoran Kennedy made a big claim about the effectiveness of the government’s alcohol policy, this week. We tested it.

https://www.thejournal.ie/minimum-unit-pricing-alcohol-ireland-facts-2932210-Aug2016/