Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

weldoninhio

Shelflife wrote: »

Theres no doubt that we have a problem with alcohol in Ireland and that it needs to be addressed.

However the recent alcohol bill will do absolutely nothing to deal with it. Imposing a MUP and putting up those ridiculous barriers will have zero impact on problem drinking and will only annoy the vast majority of drinkers who dont have a problem.

We need to properly educate people how to drink sensibly in the first place, instead of de-normalising alcohol I believe we need to normalise it , make it an everyday product thats there to be enjoyed and not taken to excess.

Many years ago we were on a family holiday to the continent, we were in a restaurant/bar and a group of 19-21 yr olds came in, I told my then 13 and 15yr olds to watch them. The group all ordered their drinks and a plate of meats and cheeses and of the group of 8 only 2 ordered a second drink. They enjoyed their wine or beers they weren't horsing them down like a lot of the Irish youth of a similar age do.

I allowed my children to have a drink at home if they wanted, if they had friends over I allowed them to have a drink too after getting their parents permission. We encouraged them to enjoy the drink in front of them and not be worrying about the next one. I encouraged them not to get into large rounds when they go out and not to be afraid to opt out of the rounds if they felt they had enough.

My children are now 24 and 22, they enjoy having a drink and on the whole dont abuse it.

For me its all about education, the problem for many is that they "learn" to drink by throwing back a naggin of vodka before they head into the teenage disco and its downhill from there.

We have some of the most expensive alcohol in Europe and still have a drink problem so clearly putting the price up again isnt going to work. Hiding the demon drink behind a barrier isnt going to work either.

Education will work ! but thats a hard slog and a long road .......... so lets put the price up and throw in a few barriers !

We don’t have a drink problem though, we’ve a few problem drinkers, same as every country in the world. We are mid-lower table in Europe for alcohol consumed per capita and getting lower and lower every year. It’s an absolute myth that we are all raging alcoholics.

Hotblack Desiato

Darc19 wrote: »

1L Jameson in Tenerife is at best €20 on offer (and at duty free shop which has 20% off the €24.80 reg price) but mostly €25. Here it's mostly €40-42 when not on offer.
Rose tinted glasses comes to mind.

If you're buying in a duty free shop in the Canaries you don't have a clue about where to purchase good value alcohol. Bottle shops are cheaper than the duty free because duty free shops always profiteer and duty is so low there anyway. I've bought a litre of Jameson in Lanzarote (Spanish excise stamp on the top and all) for €15 plenty of times. Now VAT in the Canaries has gone up a bit since I was there last so it's probably €17 now.

Yep, tobacco is harmful too. But in the hapenny place compared to alcohol

Unless you can prove that alcohol kills half of all the non-teetotal population, like tobacco kills half of all of those who smoke (not just heavy smokers), you are talking complete and utter nonsense.

I'll wait...

Quackster

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If you're buying in a duty free shop in the Canaries you don't have a clue about where to purchase good value alcohol. Bottle shops are cheaper than the duty free because duty free shops always profiteer and duty is so low there anyway. I've bought a litre of Jameson in Lanzarote (Spanish excise stamp on the top and all) for €15 plenty of times. Now VAT in the Canaries has gone up a bit since I was there last so it's probably €17 now.

VAT on alcohol in the Canaries went up last year but, at 13.5%, it's still a lot less than Mainland Spain or Ireland (both 21%). Alcohol excise duty rates are also much lower (25% of the Mainland Spain rate for spirits).

Suckit

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If you're buying in a duty free shop in the Canaries you don't have a clue about where to purchase good value alcohol. Bottle shops are cheaper than the duty free because duty free shops always profiteer and duty is so low there anyway. I've bought a litre of Jameson in Lanzarote (Spanish excise stamp on the top and all) for €15 plenty of times. Now VAT in the Canaries has gone up a bit since I was there last so it's probably €17 now.

€18.60 here on a quick search - https://www.decantalo.com/en/jameson.html
So it's not too hard to imagine that it can be purchased cheaper than that elsewhere, especially when on offer.

Snickers Man

Deleted User wrote: »

I've often wondered why a half bottle of whiskey is significantly expensive compared to a 700ml bottle. In tesco today 700ml of Jameson is 27, a half bottle, 350ml is 15. So 2 half bottles is 10% more expensive than the standard bottle. If they were genuinly interested in reducing problem drinking, should they not encourage the buying of the half bottle?

odyssey06 wrote: »

You used to be able to get two miniature bottles of wine in Tesco for €5, or 2 half bottles for €10.
That deal is gone now.
You may as well buy a full size discounted bottle.

Nail on the head. I would love more options with regard to sizing, especially wrt wine, but to bring in offers like that would be too much like intelligent thinking. And this is all about shape throwing, virtue signalling, finger wagging, holier than thou horse****!!!!!!!

I like to throw some wine into stuff when I'm cooking. (Aside: the difference between decent Bolognese sauce and delicious Bolognese sauce is a couple of glasses of wine at the cooking stage). However, I wouldn't want to open a full bottle of wine just for that and as herself and meself are basically Jack Sprat and his wife (I can drink no white; she can drink no red) I would be left with the entire bottle to skull myself. Unless we're having people over which in these Covid times we can't do anyway. :mad:

It would make much more sense if I could just buy some smaller bottles of wine (which I can do in the North very easily; very hard to come by here) without being fleeced on price.

Similarly, selling wine in smaller bottles and encouraging the sale of such, could allow people to enjoy a modest amount with their dinner instead of HAVING to polish off an entire bottle when all they wanted was half of that because, well, it doesn't keep does it?

So many of the things the anti-drinks lobby do is counter productive. Remember Arthur's Day, that Guinness launched a few years back? It was an initiative to encourage events whether musical, literary or recreational in pubs. Which is a great idea. But no. The finger waggers were up in arms saying it "normalised" drinking and encouraged people to get pissed so it was cancelled after a few years.

On the contrary, it gave people a reason to go to a pub for purposes OTHER than getting pissed. Sure, you might have had a drink or two but with other things going on they would often act as a brake on people's consumption. Take the events away, what have you? No reason to go to the pub OTHER than getting pissed!!!
Somehow the logic of this is beyond the capability of the antidrinks mob to comprehend.

So my solution to curtail problem drinking and NORMALISE moderate drinking (as opposed to trying to stamp it out altogether)

1) Stop this ridiculous practice of banning bulk buys. As the man above says: it will only encourage people to buy ONE BIG THING (which CAN still be discounted) rather than six little things which cannot

2) Encourage the option of smaller wine bottle sizes. People can still enjoy a glass of wine with their dinner without getting more pissed than they intended

3) Bring back Arthur's Day (when we can) Give people a reason to go out for a few pints and some pleasurable ancillary activity rather than sitting in a pub and getting blitzed

4) Restore drink driving limits to the old levels so you can have a couple of pints and still drive legally. And then clamp down without mercy on those who are caught exceeding those limits. It's one of the best self-regulators there is.

Snickers Man

Darc19 wrote: »

Pay a visit to St Patrick's, or St. John of god's or Cluain mhuire. Ask the families of those attending rehab what harm alcohol does. Ask the management what the waiting list is like (6 months), listen to the stories at AA meetings (in every town in the country), the drinking of wages, the violence, the moods, the loss of jobs,

I could go on and on and on.

Yep, tobacco is harmful too. But in the hapenny place compared to alcohol

Antares35 wrote: »

With respect, those people are not addicts because of the price of alcohol.

Absolutely. Can anybody show a "Study" or "Report" from anywhere that even suggests that there is ANY price elasticity AT ALL for addictive behaviour?

The whole point about "price curves" and "price elasticity" is that they assume the purchases are discretionary and voluntary.

The great thing about an addict is you can charge him or her what you like. They're an addict.

kenmc

weldoninhio wrote: »

We don’t have a drink problem though, we’ve a few problem drinkers, same as every country in the world. We are mid-lower table in Europe for alcohol consumed per capita and getting lower and lower every year. It’s an absolute myth that we are all raging alcoholics.

Sush you, that doesn't fit with the nanny state narrative. We need to be protected from ourselves, are you not listening?

Quackster

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Snickers Man wrote: »

I like to throw some wine into stuff when I'm cooking. (Aside: the difference between decent Bolognese sauce and delicious Bolognese sauce is a couple of glasses of wine at the cooking stage). However, I wouldn't want to open a full bottle of wine just for that and as herself and meself are basically Jack Sprat and his wife (I can drink no white; she can drink no red) I would be left with the entire bottle to skull myself. Unless we're having people over which in these Covid times we can't do anyway. :mad:

The solution to this particular conundrum is to freeze some wine in an ice cube tray and pop however many cubes into your pot when you're cooking.

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly

Quackster wrote: »

The solution to this particular conundrum is to freeze some wine in an ice cube tray and pop however many cubes into your pot when you're cooking.

Provided you have a freezer.

weldoninhio

kenmc wrote: »

Sush you, that doesn't fit with the nanny state narrative. We need to be protected from ourselves, are you not listening?

Sorry, must have been drunk posting.

Suckit

Snickers Man wrote: »

Absolutely. Can anybody show a "Study" or "Report" from anywhere that even suggests that there is ANY price elasticity AT ALL for addictive behaviour?

The whole point about "price curves" and "price elasticity" is that they assume the purchases are discretionary and voluntary.

The great thing about an addict is you can charge him or her what you like. They're an addict.

Scotland did done it. We must do it. Who cares if something something drugs.. something happened.

Alcohol Action Ireland are here to save the day with our tax euros. How else can they justify their wages?

Hotblack Desiato

Quackster wrote: »

The solution to this particular conundrum is to freeze some wine in an ice cube tray and pop however many cubes into your pot when you're cooking.

Or make twice as much sauce and freeze half.

There's never going to be anything like the same value and choice in half or quarter bottles of wine than full bottles, the demand just isn't there. Same with 250mL of lager, you can get them but not many as most people want 500 or 330.

odyssey06

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Or make twice as much sauce and freeze half.
There's never going to be anything like the same value and choice in half or quarter bottles of wine than full bottles, the demand just isn't there. Same with 250mL of lager, you can get them but not many as most people want 500 or 330.

Lidl seem to have the best value miniatures at 250ml.

If you have miniature bottles pour any leftover wine into them and add pinch of salt. Use for cooking but remember to reduce the salt in your recipe.

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote: »

Absolutely. Can anybody show a "Study" or "Report" from anywhere that even suggests that there is ANY price elasticity AT ALL for addictive behaviour?

The whole point about "price curves" and "price elasticity" is that they assume the purchases are discretionary and voluntary.

Suckit wrote: »

Scotland did done it. We must do it. Who cares if something something drugs.. something happened.

So that would be a "No" then.

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote: »

Nail on the head. I would love more options with regard to sizing, especially wrt wine, but to bring in offers like that would be too much like intelligent thinking. And this is all about shape throwing, virtue signalling, finger wagging, holier than thou horse****!!!!!!!

I like to throw some wine into stuff when I'm cooking. (Aside: the difference between decent Bolognese sauce and delicious Bolognese sauce is a couple of glasses of wine at the cooking stage). However, I wouldn't want to open a full bottle of wine just for that and as herself and meself are basically Jack Sprat and his wife (I can drink no white; she can drink no red) I would be left with the entire bottle to skull myself. Unless we're having people over which in these Covid times we can't do anyway. :mad:

It would make much more sense if I could just buy some smaller bottles of wine (which I can do in the North very easily; very hard to come by here) without being fleeced on price.

Similarly, selling wine in smaller bottles and encouraging the sale of such, could allow people to enjoy a modest amount with their dinner instead of HAVING to polish off an entire bottle when all they wanted was half of that because, well, it doesn't keep does it?

So many of the things the anti-drinks lobby do is counter productive. Remember Arthur's Day, that Guinness launched a few years back? It was an initiative to encourage events whether musical, literary or recreational in pubs. Which is a great idea. But no. The finger waggers were up in arms saying it "normalised" drinking and encouraged people to get pissed so it was cancelled after a few years.

On the contrary, it gave people a reason to go to a pub for purposes OTHER than getting pissed. Sure, you might have had a drink or two but with other things going on they would often act as a brake on people's consumption. Take the events away, what have you? No reason to go to the pub OTHER than getting pissed!!!
Somehow the logic of this is beyond the capability of the antidrinks mob to comprehend.

So my solution to curtail problem drinking and NORMALISE moderate drinking (as opposed to trying to stamp it out altogether)

1) Stop this ridiculous practice of banning bulk buys. As the man above says: it will only encourage people to buy ONE BIG THING (which CAN still be discounted) rather than six little things which cannot

2) Encourage the option of smaller wine bottle sizes. People can still enjoy a glass of wine with their dinner without getting more pissed than they intended

3) Bring back Arthur's Day (when we can) Give people a reason to go out for a few pints and some pleasurable ancillary activity rather than sitting in a pub and getting blitzed

4) Restore drink driving limits to the old levels so you can have a couple of pints and still drive legally. And then clamp down without mercy on those who are caught exceeding those limits. It's one of the best self-regulators there is.

There was a story I read a while back. it might have been from the US where 500ml bottles are more common. The guy writing the story admitted to being a functional alcoholic. Every evening he goes into the off license and buys a 500ml bottle of bourbon. From being there everyday he got to know the guy running the place. One day the shop owner said to him, "You know, if you bought the litre bottle it would work out a bit cheaper than the 500ml". The guy replied, "if I buy the litre bottle, I'll drink the litre. A litre is too much and gets me too drunk and I can't function the next day".

I can empathise with that from a smoking point of view. When I started smoking years ago you could still buy the 10 pack, but they got rid of the 10 pack because according to ASH or whichever anti-smoking group the ten pack encouraged kids to take up smoking. What was the impact of banning the ten pack? Well, guess who went from smoking 10 a day to 20 a day?

L1011

Quackster wrote: »

The solution to this particular conundrum is to freeze some wine in an ice cube tray and pop however many cubes into your pot when you're cooking.

Useless for deglazing for pan sauces, though.

KrustyUCC

New EU rules may put paid to cheaper alcohol and cigarettes from overseas


THE EU is considering stopping Irish holidaymakers loading up on cheaper alcohol and cigarettes when they travel to other countries – with new rules that would also affect trips to Northern Ireland.

Ireland is one of the most expensive places in the EU to buy alcohol and cigarettes, due to high excise duties.

In a public consultation launched yesterday, the EU suggested holidaymakers should pay excise duties at home rates rather than where they buy products.

Ireland’s wine prices are the highest in the EU. The country is second-highest for spirits prices (after Sweden) and third-highest for beer (after Finland and Denmark).

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/new-eu-rules-may-put-paid-to-cheaper-alcohol-and-cigarettes-from-overseas-40039910.html

You would hope that the media might repeat the statistics about wine prices, spirits or beers to Eunan McKinney the next time he's advocating about 'cheap alcohol' in this country

That's unlikely though

Hotblack Desiato

Mad.

But there will be duty free to and from Britain...

I'd love to know how French wine prices are not a threat to public health in France, but bring that bottle back home to Ireland and suddenly it becomes one :rolleyes:

Quantum Erasure

can't wait for the booze cruises to Ireland for the excise-free wine and fags...

Suckit

How would they implement that? Ask everyone for their passports? Check every car boot, van, coach etc?
Or would it be done in every off-licence, supermarket etc..
Everyone must show their passport upon purchase to pay duty...

TK Lemon

KrustyUCC wrote: »

New EU rules may put paid to cheaper alcohol and cigarettes from overseas


THE EU is considering stopping Irish holidaymakers loading up on cheaper alcohol and cigarettes when they travel to other countries – with new rules that would also affect trips to Northern Ireland.

Ireland is one of the most expensive places in the EU to buy alcohol and cigarettes, due to high excise duties.

In a public consultation launched yesterday, the EU suggested holidaymakers should pay excise duties at home rates rather than where they buy products.

Ireland’s wine prices are the highest in the EU. The country is second-highest for spirits prices (after Sweden) and third-highest for beer (after Finland and Denmark).

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/new-eu-rules-may-put-paid-to-cheaper-alcohol-and-cigarettes-from-overseas-40039910.html

You would hope that the media might repeat the statistics about wine prices, spirits or beers to Eunan McKinney the next time he's advocating about 'cheap alcohol' in this country

That's unlikely though

Will this apply only to Ireland? Surely that's a gross violation of several EU treaties. Or will it apply equally to Finns in Spain as it would to Irish in Slovakia? In which case it should be ok as it's being uniformly applied to all EU citizens everywhere.

How can this be implemented btw? What if I stock up my car on French champagne? Just because I have an Irish passport doesn't mean I live there.

I could easily be dual Irish Spanish citizen living in Belgium. Sounds unenforceable.

elperello

On a quick read of that article it seems that you would be required to pay the difference between the duty in the country you made the purchase in and your country of residence.

I'm guessing that it would be up to the customs in your country of residence to collect what is due.

Something like VRT on vehicles.

So much for the Single Market.

I'm sure more information will come out as time passes.

Suckit

It would mean that they would have to check every vehicle coming in, or expect everyone to declare it.

I for one look for forward to this new black market they are creating and see what criminals can grow from it.. :pac:

Thelonious Monk

I bring home 10 amber leaf 50g packets every year from Spain and it does me pretty much for a year and I give some away. I think they're about 7.50 each and it's more than 3 times the price here.
Even if they start charging excise duty I'd probably just take them anyway and hope they don't stop me.
They really seem determined to screw us on alcohol though.

Notdeco

elperello wrote: »

On a quick read of that article it seems that you would be required to pay the difference between the duty in the country you made the purchase in and your country of residence.

I'm guessing that it would be up to the customs in your country of residence to collect what is due.

Something like VRT on vehicles.

So much for the Single Market.

I'm sure more information will come out as time passes.

More likely they are looking at the US model. You pay the seller, seller pays the state. Or in this case the country.

elperello

Notdeco wrote: »

More likely they are looking at the US model. You pay the seller, seller pays the state. Or in this case the country.

It's cross border shopping they seem to be targeting.

Hard to see how they could expect a retailer in say France to charge different prices to visitors and remit tax to another country.

Atlantic Dawn

Notdeco wrote: »

More likely they are looking at the US model. You pay the seller, seller pays the state. Or in this case the country.

What would stop you from getting some local in the country you are visiting to buy the goods on your behalf and you bring them back to Ireland? If they start charging people on return to Ireland we might as well leave the EU as we would be getting a half arsed free movement of goods deal.

Alcohol and tobacco should be a taxed at a fixed rate across the entire EU so health policies can be properly measured, that or have it based pro rate as a % of the minimum wage.

Suckit

Can't see them charging any other countries for buying alcohol or tobacco in another country and bringing it in. This seems very targeted.
I can't imagine it happens too often that a French, German, Italian or Spanish citizen crosses borders to purchase either, but it might happen in smaller numbers.
Are they all going to have to declare duty on whatever they bring back above a certain price? (assuming they are going to put a price limit on it).
It already seems like the only place to get duty free alcohol is going to be the countries in Europe that aren't in the EU... :

Atlantic Dawn

Suckit wrote: »

It already seems like the only place to get duty free alcohol is going to be the countries in Europe that aren't in the EU... :

Spain is actually very cheap, a lot of alcohol sold in supermarkets there is actually cheaper than duty free price at Dublin airport, Smirnoff for an example is €12.55 a litre in the Supermarket...
https://www.carrefour.es/supermercado/vodka-smirnoff-1-l-smirnoff/R-538002112/p

Jameson from this parish only €22.30 a litre...
https://www.carrefour.es/supermercado/whisky-jameson-irlandes-1-l-jameson/R-590213125/p

You can currently without any explanation needed bring back 10 litres of spirits back in to Ireland from any EU state...
https://www.revenue.ie/en/importing-vehicles-duty-free-allowances/customs-information-for-travelling-and-duty-free-allowances/travelling-from-within-the-eu/duty-paid-and-tax-paid-goods.aspx

Suckit

I mean if that law is brought in.
It won't matter the price it is in other Countries, we will have to pay tax on it to equal the prices here, unless we buy it outside the EU in a duty free retailer.