Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

kenmc

GhostyMcGhost wrote: »

Finally, someone talking sense

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/minimum-unit-pricing-could-see-alcohol-in-ireland-twice-as-dear-as-north-1120894.html

Tomorrow's headline: Drinks Ireland director Patricia Callan found dead. Gardai told to rule out foul play.

elperello

Meanwhile have a read of this letter supporting MUP in yesterday's Irish Times.

Pay particular attention to the long list of people who signed it.

They can't wait for you to pay more for a few drinks in your own house.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/the-price-of-alcohol-1.4552549

kenmc

elperello wrote: »

Meanwhile have a read of this letter supporting MUP in yesterday's Irish Times.

Pay particular attention to the long list of people who signed it.

They can't wait for you to pay more for a few drinks in your own house.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/the-price-of-alcohol-1.4552549

Paywalled

elperello

kenmc wrote: »

Paywalled

Works ok for me. Maybe you are over your quota of free access.

ShamNNspace

elperello wrote: »

Meanwhile have a read of this letter supporting MUP in yesterday's Irish Times.

Pay particular attention to the long list of people who signed it.

They can't wait for you to pay more for a few drinks in your own house.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/the-price-of-alcohol-1.4552549

Its no coincidence that all those who put their name to this nonsense are extremely well remunerated and completely disconnected from the lives of the average citizen

dubrov

elperello wrote:

Pay particular attention to the long list of people who signed it.

Are there any TDs in that list?

Looks like a short enough list of nobodies.

ShamNNspace

dubrov wrote: »

Are there any TDs in that list?

Looks like a short enough list of nobodies.

Frances Black for one

patrickbrophy18

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Its no coincidence that all those who put their name to this nonsense are extremely well remunerated and completely disconnected from the lives of the average citizen

Many of them probably have a close relative or friend who succumbed to alcohol abuse or had a turbulent upbringing as a direct or indirect result of alcohol abuse. While I do sympathise with such individuals, I don't think the average Joe should be punished for this.

Many other nations don't have this issue. However, I do think the root cause is far more insideous than alcohol. Factors such as trauma and poor environments growing up can drive people to the gargle. So, we need to stop chains like these from taking root.

Atlantic Dawn

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Frances Black for one

She gave up drinking in 1989, she has zero relevance in the conversation. A house could be bought by one person on the average industrial wage back then, now that is not possible so people piss it up against the wall instead.

ShamNNspace

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

She gave up drinking in 1989, she has zero relevance in the conversation. A house could be bought by one person on the average industrial wage back then, now that is not possible so people piss it up against the wall instead.

I was aware of her past addiction, a poster asked were there any politicians on the list, I replied that there was..... that is all

VinLieger

Disgusted to see the likes of Barnardos and the ISPCC on there, the idea that this will help children whose parents are alcoholics is fvcking absurd, addicts will get their fix no matter the cost meaning these children will be worse off under this idiocy

KrustyUCC

elperello wrote: »

Meanwhile have a read of this letter supporting MUP in yesterday's Irish Times.

Pay particular attention to the long list of people who signed it.

They can't wait for you to pay more for a few drinks in your own house.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/the-price-of-alcohol-1.4552549

"Minimum-unit pricing increases the price of only the cheapest alcohol"

This will be proven to be false

Newho we've the second dearest alcohol in Europe before this travesty comes in

Cheap alcohol in Ireland doesn't stack up

Tony EH

KrustyUCC wrote: »

"Minimum-unit pricing increases the price of only the cheapest alcohol"

This will be proven to be false

Newho we've the second dearest alcohol in Europe before this travesty comes in

Cheap alcohol in Ireland doesn't stack up

Agreed. I read that and immediately cocked the eyebrow. Because that simply rings so, so, hollow. It sounds like someone who's just completely out of touch with the realities of Ireland.

elperello

VinLieger wrote: »

Disgusted to see the likes of Barnardos and the ISPCC on there, the idea that this will help children whose parents are alcoholics is fvcking absurd, addicts will get their fix no matter the cost meaning these children will be worse off under this idiocy

You could add the Children's Rights Alliance and what you have is a classic example of "mission creep".

These organisations are doing good work trying to improve children's lives but make the mistake of getting involved in campaigns which are not directly related to their objectives.

They have signed up to support legislation which will increase the price of drink for everyone, even those who have no children.

L1011

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Frances Black for one

She's a Senator not a TD.

elperello

L1011 wrote: »

She's a Senator not a TD.

As a member of the Senate she would be correctly described as a politician.

Also worth noting that not one TD voted against MUP.

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Hmm. This thread has been going for about 5 years and we still don't have MUP. I think the idea that doom is "nigh" is starting to sound as credible as the Free Presbyterians.

I don't think price is the only thing that needs to change, but it's absolutely true that alcohol can be bought very cheaply here. Maybe not as cheaply as in Italy at nominal prices, but we don't have Italian salaries.

Irish Median household salary: approx €45,000
Italian Median household salary: approx €20,000

odyssey06

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Hmm. This thread has been going for about 5 years and we still don't have MUP. I think the idea that doom is "nigh" is starting to sound as credible as the Free Presbyterians.
I don't think price is the only thing that needs to change, but it's absolutely true that alcohol can be bought very cheaply here. Maybe not as cheaply as in Italy at nominal prices, but we don't have Italian salaries.
Irish Median household salary: approx €45,000
Italian Median household salary: approx €20,000

Alcohol is much cheaper in France and Germany than here and their household salaries are significantly higher.
So relatively it is much cheaper for them... do they have noticeably larger problems with alcohol?
So not sure why price 'needs to change'???

ShamNNspace

L1011 wrote: »

She's a Senator not a TD.

My mistake, I could have sworn the first comment were "are there any politicians on the list"

EddieN75

Well on the other hand carbon taxes went up again over the weekend.

odyssey06

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

odyssey06 wrote: »

Alcohol is much cheaper in France and Germany than here and their household salaries are significantly higher.
So relatively it is much cheaper for them... do they have noticeably larger problems with alcohol?
So not sure why price 'needs to change'???

France and Germany do have a big problem with alcohol, but in Ireland our culture is geared more toward binges. 75% of alcohol consumed here is in a binge, and fewer people consume more of the alcohol.

Gross median household salaries are not higher in France, and I'm not sure about Germany, but I'm pretty sure they're lower there too.

Where are you getting that information, that they have significantly higher salaries? I think you might be confusing PPP-adjusted salaries (Eurostat, OECD) with data produced by national statistics agencies. The French statistical agency INSEE gives their 2017 median disposable household income as €21,120.

I don't know what Germany's is. You'd probably have to speak German to find it. It's almost certainly less than ours, at €43,552.

France and Germany still have big problems with alcohol mind you. 50,000 alcohol deaths in France per year.

EddieN75

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

France and Germany do have a big problem with alcohol, but in Ireland our culture is geared more toward binges. 75% of alcohol consumed here is in a binge, and fewer people consume more of the alcohol.

Gross median household salaries are not higher in France, and I'm not sure about Germany, but I'm pretty sure they're lower there too.

Where are you getting that information, that they have significantly higher salaries? I think you might be confusing PPP-adjusted salaries (Eurostat, OECD) with data produced by national statistics agencies. The French statistical agency INSEE gives their 2017 median disposable household income as €21,120.

I don't know what Germany's is. You'd probably have to speak German to find it. It's almost certainly less than ours, at €43,552.

France and Germany still have big problems with alcohol mind you. 50,000 alcohol deaths in France per year.

I'm not sure where you figures are coming from

https://www.finfacts-blog.com/2019/04/irish-median-income-at-13th-in-europe.html?m=1#:~:text=In%202017%2C%20median%20disposable%20income,8.6%25%20above%20the%20EU28%20average.

ohnonotgmail

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

France and Germany do have a big problem with alcohol, but in Ireland our culture is geared more toward binges. 75% of alcohol consumed here is in a binge, and fewer people consume more of the alcohol.

Gross median household salaries are not higher in France, and I'm not sure about Germany, but I'm pretty sure they're lower there too.

Where are you getting that information, that they have significantly higher salaries? I think you might be confusing PPP-adjusted salaries (Eurostat, OECD) with data produced by national statistics agencies. The French statistical agency INSEE gives their 2017 median disposable household income as €21,120.

I don't know what Germany's is. You'd probably have to speak German to find it. It's almost certainly less than ours, at €43,552.

France and Germany still have big problems with alcohol mind you. 50,000 alcohol deaths in France per year.

if we look at median disposable income there isn't a massive difference between ireland, france and germany. certainly not enough to account for the disparity in alcohol prices.

https://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=ilc_di04&lang=en

odyssey06

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

France and Germany do have a big problem with alcohol, but in Ireland
Gross median household salaries are not higher in France, and I'm not sure about Germany, but I'm pretty sure they're lower there too.

Where are you getting that information, that they have significantly higher salaries? I think you might be confusing PPP-adjusted salaries (Eurostat, OECD) with data produced by national statistics agencies. The French statistical agency INSEE gives their 2017 median household income as €21,120.
I don't know what Germany's is. You'd probably have to speak German to find it. It's almost certainly less than ours, at €43,552.
France and Germany still have big problems with alcohol mind you. 50,000 alcohol deaths in France per year.

The statistics in general don't add up for me.
I think I may have been using the PPP adjusted salaries... but then how can
Germany and France have a higher average gross wage than we do.
Even when adjusted for net, Ireland Germany and France are in the range of 2500 - 2700.
And yet Ireland has a median household income more than double that of France's?
Even given the difference between median and average that doesn't seem credible... I wonder if Ireland's figures are distorted by adult children living and working in same household.

You claim 50,000 alcohol related deaths for France... I find articles claiming 41,000 deaths. I find articles for Ireland which ranges from 600 -1000.
Alcohol related is not the same as alcohol caused, and the range in figures quotes is an indicator of how vague this metric is.

It doesn't suggest Ireland relative to our EU peers is a significant outlier in terms of alcohol impact requiring these measures, especially as alcohol consumption in Ireland is on a downward trend.

EddieN75

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

EddieN75 wrote: »

I'm not sure where you figures are coming from https://www.finfacts-blog.com/2019/04/irish-median-income-at-13th-in-europe.html?m=1#:~:text=In%202017%2C%20median%20disposable%20income,8.6%25%20above%20the%20EU28%20average.

You're using price-adjusted using PPP figures that originated from Eurostat. As mentioned above, Eurostat (and the OECD) prefer these figures, because they are useful for cross comparison between countries. As in, adjusting for PPP will give you an idea of 'bang for your buck' as an Irish worker in Ireland, compared to a French worker in France.

They are not useful when you're an Irish worker visiting France, seeing the price level on a bottle of wine, and thinking "everything is so cheap here".

Countries with lower price levels tend to have lower salaries. Ireland has higher prices, and considerably higher after-tax disposable household income than France.

What you need to look at is the raw statistical data in Ireland, not adjusted for PPP. Our median net household wage is almost double theirs

Still, a bottle of wine might be three times what it costs in France — so we probably do have higher alcohol prices to an extent, but people are exaggerating when they fail to take into account raw salary differences.

odyssey06

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

odyssey06 wrote: »

And yet Ireland has a median household income more than double that of France's?
Even given the difference between median and average that doesn't seem credible... I wonder if Ireland's figures are distorted by adult children living and working in same household.

.

sure, that might be part of it. But even if it is, 3 adults living together earning a median of about 90k have very low expenses compared to an adult on their own, so have more income after household bills, money for chips and pints.

Economics101

If a lot of heavy drinkers suffer from a (possibly mild) form of addiction, then it is likely that they will not cut their consumption all that much in response to a price increase. So if alcohol is 10% dearer, and these people don't cut their consumption by at least 10%, they are going to end up spending more money on booze. That leaves less money for food, clothing etc.

Of course they might spend less on cigs and gambling, but I doubt it.

KrustyUCC

Legislation on minimum unit pricing for alcohol will be brought before Cabinet tomorrow by Health Minister Stephen Donnelly.

The legislation will set a 10c minimum price per gram of alcohol and it is hoped it will only impact on the cheapest drinks sold in off-licences and supermarkets.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/legislation-on-minimum-unit-pricing-for-alcohol-to-go-before-cabinet-tomorrow-40383669.html

They have no hope it will only only impact on the 'cheapest' drinks

They know this too

Atlantic Dawn

Sainsbury's in Newry better build an extension.

sully123

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Legislation on minimum unit pricing for alcohol will be brought before Cabinet tomorrow by Health Minister Stephen Donnelly.

The legislation will set a 10c minimum price per gram of alcohol and it is hoped it will only impact on the cheapest drinks sold in off-licences and supermarkets.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/legislation-on-minimum-unit-pricing-for-alcohol-to-go-before-cabinet-tomorrow-40383669.html

They have no hope it will only only impact on the 'cheapest' drinks

They know this too

Article suggests 1.32 for a can of beer.
What's the workings behind that?