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Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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    #632
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,002 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    why would you think it wasn't based on excise duty reporting? it seems the simplest method.

    Cus I don't base my opinions on assumptions, especially when it comes to how Ireland of the 60's 70's and 80's decided it was best to do things


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    #633
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,442 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Cus I don't base my opinions on assumptions, especially when it comes to how Ireland of the 60's 70's and 80's decided it was best to do things

    from a linked page http://alcoholireland.ie/home_news/how-much-are-we-really-drinking/

    It says:
    How is our per capita alcohol consumption worked out in Ireland?
    Alcohol consumption figures for Ireland are calculated on the basis of figures provided by the Office of the Revenue Commissioners and the Central Statistics Office (CSO). The total volume of alcohol consumed, measured in litres of pure alcohol, is based on Revenue clearances data and then this figure is divided by the population aged 15-years-old and above, as defined by the latest Census information available from the CSO.

    There isnt a hell of a lot of statistical methodology required to calculate those figures. The ancient greeks would have managed it. There is nothing to say that the methodology has changed over the years. It is you that is making the assumptions.


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    #634
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,002 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    from a linked page http://alcoholireland.ie/home_news/how-much-are-we-really-drinking/

    It says:



    There isnt a hell of a lot of statistical methodology required to calculate those figures. The ancient greeks would have managed it. There is nothing to say that the methodology has changed over the years. It is you that is making the assumptions.

    Im not making any assumptions i think its equally likely as unlikely that they are using the same methodology and its not unreasonable to ask a question regarding how things were done 55 years ago is it?

    If it was 20 years ago even 30 years ago Id be fine with it, but 55?

    There is no evidence to prove it hasn't changed and was done the same way which is reason enough to simply ask the question imo considering that length of time. All any of the resources say is how it is currently and has in recent years been calculated.


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    #635
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,249 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    The local weed dealers must be rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of this tbh.


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    #636
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    why would you think it wasn't based on excise duty reporting? it seems the simplest method.

    They also have to take into account imports, smuggling, homebrewing and moonshining.


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    #637
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 15,050 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Well, sure - health organizations, largely. The same sort of organizations who fight the tobacco industry.

    Who were you expecting, the Spanish Inquisition?

    Even the Spanish Inquisition were partial to a drop of wine (not during Lent of course!)

    But seriously, they are not all health organisations. I don't appreciate a coalition including Union of Students in Ireland, Barnardos, A Lust for Life, Pavee Point and various local "drugs and alcohol task forces" campaigning to make my few drinks at home more expensive.

    Neither do I agree with conflating the debate about drinking with the issue of smoking. A bottle of beer on a fine day or a hot toddy by the fire in Winter never harmed anyone.


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    #638
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 15,050 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Sleepy wrote: »
    The local weed dealers must be rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of this tbh.

    If the Government really wanted to do something constructive they would address the issues that cause people to want use drink or drugs to alter their mental state.


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    #639
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    elperello wrote: »
    Neither do I agree with conflating the debate about drinking with the issue of smoking. A bottle of beer on a fine day or a hot toddy by the fire in Winter never harmed anyone.

    No-one that I have noticed is campaigning to have people quit alcohol entirely, so even the anti-booze campaigners are treating them the same way.

    At least not yet.


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    #640
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,442 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    goose2005 wrote: »
    They also have to take into account imports, smuggling, homebrewing and moonshining.


    imports would be included in the excise duty totals. the others would make little or no difference to the total consumed.


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    #641
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,442 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    elperello wrote: »
    If the Government really wanted to do something constructive they would address the issues that cause people to want use drink or drugs to alter their mental state.


    humans have been using substances to alter their mental state since forever. No government will change that.


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    #642
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Sleepy wrote: »
    The local weed dealers must be rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of this tbh.

    Maybe I'll try some.of that angel dust and PCP...


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    #643
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,442 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Maybe I'll try some.of that angel dust and PCP...

    I'd stick with the crack cocaine if i were you. You know where you are with a bit of crack.


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    #644
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,249 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    elperello wrote: »
    If the Government really wanted to do something constructive they would address the issues that cause people to want use drink or drugs to alter their mental state.
    That, and legalise marijuana for recreational use. The exchequer would get a nice bump from the extra tax, the guards could focus on real problems and criminals would see a lucrative source of income disappear overnight.


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    #645
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,002 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    elperello wrote: »
    If the Government really wanted to do something constructive they would address the issues that cause people to want use drink or drugs to alter their mental state.

    I have drinks on a Friday and/or Saturday like most other responsible drinkers to help me relax and relieve tension from a hard week of work. How exactly can the government address that?


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    #646
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,442 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    VinLieger wrote: »
    I have drinks on a Friday and/or Saturday like most other responsible drinkers to help me relax and relieve tension from a hard week of work. How exactly can the government address that?


    Free backrubs from the HSE? :D


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    #647
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,434 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    elperello wrote: »
    If the Government really wanted to do something constructive they would address the issues that cause people to want use drink or drugs to alter their mental state.

    The point of drinking is not always to "alter your mental state" - in fact, bringing in minimum pricing is going to encourage "mind-altering" states, while just drinking to enjoy a beer or two at home before going to bed will be the behaviour discouraged.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #648
    _Jamie_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 603 ✭✭✭_Jamie_


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Because its far easier to track alcohol consumption accurately with the use of automated computing and through tax returns as nowadays its based on excise duty reporting. Do you know the exact methodology that was used back then?

    Of course not but there is no reason to believe the statistics are not sound. Like I said, statistical methodology is not new and it's tad patronising towards the past statisticians to assume that they didn't design the studies correctly. Yeah, how could they be expected to? After all, all the major scientific discoveries have come in last ten years, right? Because before that, how can anyone have been expected to design the experiments correctly? Oh wait, no. The same holds for design of statistical studies. People were no less learned in this field 40 years ago; in fact without being able to rely on technology, they may well have been even more rigorous.


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    #649
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    from a linked page http://alcoholireland.ie/home_news/how-much-are-we-really-drinking/

    It says:



    There isnt a hell of a lot of statistical methodology required to calculate those figures. The ancient greeks would have managed it. There is nothing to say that the methodology has changed over the years. It is you that is making the assumptions.

    And then removing the people that don't drink from the Per capita to make up an argument. Totally skewing the figures as it's not per capita then. And interesting from 15 which is illegal. And should not be used in legal consumption of alcohol. So much cherry picking.


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    #650
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    Sleepy wrote: »
    That, and legalise marijuana for recreational use. The exchequer would get a nice bump from the extra tax, the guards could focus on real problems and criminals would see a lucrative source of income disappear overnight.

    Weed growers are relatively easy targets though. The seizures of that plant keep the garda drug seizure stats up there so they can pretend to be doing something. I heard they were weighing pots and all in some cases to artificially inflate their seizure stats.


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    #651
    brightspark
    Registered Users Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    dfeo wrote: »
    The attack on small business owners and off-license operators for the benefit of pubs is sickening.

    A good chunk of TDs are publicans themselves. The attack on off-licences, small shops, supermarkets and other family businesses to the benefit of a vested interest is exactly like 9th November 1938 (Kristellnacht) where Jewish businesses were attacked by the Nazis.



    Despite the fact that I disagree with MUP, and also consider it heavily influenced by the publicans, comparing it to how the Jews were treated by the Nazis is even more sickening!


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    #652
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    The Kristellnacht might have been a little bit more drastic.

    While I agree that this is a sop to publicans, off licences and supermarkets will probably do alright out of it too as people aren't all going to stop buying off sales


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    #653
    buried
    Registered Users Posts: 9,781 ✭✭✭buried


    The most worrying aspect about all this is what's going to happen once the TD vintner publicans see this pi$$ poor tactic isn't going to send the people rushing back into their depressing, outdated, soulless pubs. What will be the next course of action? Ban off-licences altogether?? The way things are currently going I wouldn't be f**king surprised.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



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    #654
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,434 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Sigh. This was the one thread I had hoped would not succomb to Godwin's law.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #655
    buried
    Registered Users Posts: 9,781 ✭✭✭buried


    Yeah your right Princess, we'll just succumb to good auld nanny state, Bull$hitology lobbied law instead

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



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    #656
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 15,050 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    buried wrote: »
    The most worrying aspect about all this is what's going to happen once the TD vintner publicans see this pi$$ poor tactic isn't going to send the people rushing back into their depressing, outdated, soulless pubs. What will be the next course of action? Ban off-licences altogether?? The way things are currently going I wouldn't be f**king surprised.

    It would seem to be a given that the publicans target market would be people who are partial to a drink. If MUP takes money out of their pockets and gives it to the off licence trade they will have even less to spend on nights out in the pub.


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    #657
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,434 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    buried wrote: »
    Yeah your right Princess, we'll just succumb to good auld nanny state, Bull$hitology lobbied law instead

    I moved to Germany. I can get a beer at any hour of the night if I so feel like it and pay a euro. A euro fifty if I want an posh one.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #658
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    I moved to Germany. I can get a beer at any hour of the night if I so feel like it and pay a euro. A euro fifty if I want an posh one.

    And their annual alcohol consumption rates per head are very similar to ours. Slightly lower, but not by much. Ireland is on a par with the rest of western Europe when it comes to alcohol consumption. The Irish political class in conjunction with its mates is just one big huge parasite that sucks the life out of the economy and the individual.


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    #659
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,652 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    The is the problem with consumption not the way we consume it?

    For eg, in the London there is a tradition of a pint at lunch. We don't have that. French tend to have wine at every meal, a bottle.

    I would wager that Monday to Thursday the majority of people don't drink much, but when we do go out we go all out!

    Has any breakdown of the type of consumption been carried out?


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    #660
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 18,002 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Leos out saying this will be pushed through by the end of the year

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/booze-supermarkets-licenses-lot-more-10873989

    He claims it wont affect anything but the low end booze being sold below cost but we all know thats absolute bo11ox.

    The only people this will affect in the pockets is responsible drinkers, problem drinkers are still gonna get their booze and likely from more dodgy black market sources as it will be cheaper.

    The real reason behind all of this has always been FGs promise to the vintners to force people back into their stagnant businesses cus they cant be arsed trying to compete or innovate


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    #661
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Leos out saying this will be pushed through by the end of the year

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/booze-supermarkets-licenses-lot-more-10873989

    He claims it wont affect anything but the low end booze being sold below cost but we all know thats absolute bo11ox.

    The only people this will affect in the pockets is responsible drinkers, problem drinkers are still gonna get their booze and likely from more dodgy black market sources as it will be cheaper.

    The real reason behind all of this has always been FGs promise to the vintners to force people back into their stagnant businesses cus they cant be arsed trying to compete or innovate
    https://www.lobbying.ie/return/6598/vintners-federation-of-ireland

    I'll just leave that here. Make of it what you will.

    Edit:
    It's actually a very interesting site:
    https://www.lobbying.ie/return/14417/vintners-federation-of-ireland


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