Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

jbt123

Myself and a number of friends have already decided that when this bullish!t law takes effect we are going to take turns doing alcohol runs to the North. So Leo and his fcuking Vinters cronies can do one.
Once a fortnight we'll be stocking up on all the spirits, wine and beer we need.

I'm fcuking sick of this shambolic country and the crooks running it trying to stick it to the ordinary citizen.

elperello

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm still hoping this will have a rougher ride than expected due to lobbying. There hasn't been much lobbying around minimum pricing yet but I feel this is because advertising and structural separation are the only aspects to have been debated in the oireachtas so far. Hopefully when they get to the minimum price part, the lobbyists will blitz the crap out of sitting politicians.

Where are we with the legal situation? If someone takes a court case based on eu competition law, does the ambiguous ECJ ruling favour, in Ireland's case, the bill's legality or its illegality?

When a light is shone on this deeply flawed Bill more people might wake up.
Sen. Sean Barrett is the only one I've heard calling out the nonsense of MUP.
The rest of them are only too happy to have our pockets plundered.

A family member of mine works in the drinks industry and believes MUP will never happen as the retailers won't stand for it. I hope they are right and maybe they are. From a lobbying point of view, who has more power, the VFI or the combined lobbying abilities of Tesco, Dunnes, SuperValu, Aldi, Centra and Lidl? Hopefully the latter.

elperello

Deleted User wrote: »

A family member of mine works in the drinks industry and believes MUP will never happen as the retailers won't stand for it. I hope they are right and maybe they are. From a lobbying point of view, who has more power, the VFI or the combined lobbying abilities of Tesco, Dunnes, SuperValu, Aldi, Centra and Lidl? Hopefully the latter.

I hope they are right too but I wouldn't put money on it.
The big retailers won't have to bother about special offers on drink. They will just scoop up their share of the increased price and discount something else to get the crowds in.
I hope I'm wrong.

elperello

elperello wrote: »

I hope they are right too but I wouldn't put money on it.
The big retailers won't have to bother about special offers on drink. They will just scoop up their share of the increased price and discount something else to get the crowds in.
I hope I'm wrong.

Well my relative says the retailers will take the view that no-one will buy alcohol in supermarkets anymore if MUP is brought in. They'll go to france, or up north or the black market. Instead of scooping up their share, there'll be no share to scoop. Then as well as losing revenue from alcohol, they'll lose revenue from the other things people buy when they're in buying their booze.

I hope he's right.

elperello

Deleted User wrote: »

Well my relative says the retailers will take the view that no-one will buy alcohol in supermarkets anymore if MUP is brought in. They'll go to france, or up north or the black market. Instead of scooping up their share, there'll be no share to scoop. Then as well as losing revenue from alcohol, they'll lose revenue from the other things people buy when they're in buying their booze.

I hope he's right.

I think the number going to France will as it always was be limited. The break for the border will
last for a while but SF are in favour and I expect it might suit the DUP. More "middle class" people won't feel comfortable dealing with the type who will be selling black market.

Not dissing your relatives views, just a few points for discussion.

Shelflife

The problem with the act is that Leo has nailed his colours to it and is calling the shots, TDs and Senators are not willing to waste their political currency on this .

Those that are, are being vilified as "anti health - think of the children " .

They are relying on the lack of public knowledge as to the ramifications of the bill to push it through. The CSNA - Convenience Stores and Newsagents Association are currently organising a petition against the structural separation section of it, I've asked a number of my customers to support it and their initial reaction is one of incredulity. They can't believe that that the govt don't trust them not to lose the run of themselves at the sight of a bottle of wine.

They really want to push this through, I've read it and honestly think it will have no impact at all on the health of the Irish public but will change the whole industry and not for the better.

worded

punisher5112 wrote: »

Brings the whole water charge thing into light.

Just because a very small few can't handle their drink shouldn't mean it ruins it for the rest of us.

Up north we go.....

It has everything to do with the pubs gouging everyone.

Spoke to an Itilian recently who couldn’t believe the measures we get here and the price

It’s a double shaft

I think I will ask for a double Vodka shaft next time I’m in a pub and a splash of rip off

Leroy42

jbt123 wrote: »

Myself and a number of friends have already decided that when this bullish!t law takes effect we are going to take turns doing alcohol runs to the North. So Leo and his fcuking Vinters cronies can do one.
Once a fortnight we'll be stocking up on all the spirits, wine and beer we need.

I'm fcuking sick of this shambolic country and the crooks running it trying to stick it to the ordinary citizen.

NI will be bringing in MUP at the same time.
NI will be bringing in a hard border with possible border checks and personal limits for the movement of goods.

How much will you drink in two weeks that would necessitate the time of 1 day wasted and money involved (petrol, lunch, parking etc).

For such a plan to make sense then quite a large amount of drink would need to be involved and as such surely it proves that this measure will have an effect as many people will simply reduce consumption rather than go to such lengths.

Of course if you live near the border it makes more sense that if you live in Cork. But even from Dublin, it would be at least a half a day trip

McMurphy

Leroy42 wrote: »

NI will be bringing in MUP at the same time.
NI will be bringing in a hard border with possible border checks and personal limits for the movement of goods.

Link?

Fierce fond of the scaremongering Leroy.

You wouldn't happen to be a member of the VFI or a the Oireachtas by any chance?

Cantona's Collars

I dunno if it was mentioned here since yesterday but the makers of Bulmers have welcomed the moves for minimum pricing due to their selling of "premium priced" products and being undercut by cheaper brands...... of course it's nothing to do with falling profits as people don't want to spend a fortune on overpriced cider.

elperello

elperello wrote: »

I think the number going to France will as it always was be limited. The break for the border will
last for a while but SF are in favour and I expect it might suit the DUP. More "middle class" people won't feel comfortable dealing with the type who will be selling black market.

Not dissing your relatives views, just a few points for discussion.

Those were my words "Go up north etc". I was responding to the question of why would the retailers oppose the Bill when they could just scoop up the price increase.

My relatives view is the retailers will fight this tooth and nail. Not just the price increases but the covering over of the booze aisle. To be honest, the bill may not even be legal. Theres a question mark over its introduction in Scotland, but if you add in the covering of the booze aisle with a curtain, it could be argued that the bill goes against European Competition Law.

The definition of a cartel is "an association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintaining prices at a high level and restricting competition."

Maintaining prices at a high level - tick.
Restricting competition - tick.

Leroy42

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Link?

Fierce fond of the scaremongering Leroy.

You wouldn't happen to be a member of the VFI or a the Oireachtas by any chance?

https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/nr/northern-ireland-minimum-pricing-1.423978

http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/globalassets/documents/raise/publications/2011/social-development/0711.pdf

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/minimum-alcohol-pricing-planned-for-the-north-1.2023349

Not scaremongering at all. Just trying to put some facts into a debate.

There is likely to be MUP in NI. There is likely to be a hard border with customs checks on the border. Are people really suggesting that they will give up a day every few weeks to drive to the north and back to buy enough drink to make it worth the hassle rather than simply head down to the local pub!

Of course there will always be people that find a way around any law, but that is not a reason not to bring in the law in the first place. But I don't see it that the majority of people will actually do this on a regular basis, enough to make a significant impact.

And no, I wouldn't happen to be a member of the VFI or a the Oireachtas, or indeed have any links to either the pub trade or the tourist trade.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

Those were my words "Go up north etc". I was responding to the question of why would the retailers oppose the Bill when they could just scoop up the price increase.

My relatives view is the retailers will fight this tooth and nail. Not just the price increases but the covering over of the booze aisle. To be honest, the bill may not even be legal. Theres a question mark over its introduction in Scotland, but if you add in the covering of the booze aisle with a curtain, it could be argued that the bill goes against European Competition Law.

The definition of a cartel is "an association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintaining prices at a high level and restricting competition."

Maintaining prices at a high level - tick.
Restricting competition - tick.

How do the government get away with the current system around cigarettes?

worded

What can be done to stop this Law going through?

Who can you write to or contact to voice your opinion ?

Is an on line petition possible ?

McMurphy

Leroy42 wrote: »

NI will be bringing in MUP at the same time.
NI will be bringing in a hard border with possible border checks and personal limits for the movement of goods.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not scaremongering at all. Just trying to put some facts into a debate.

But if you present something as a fact, which in fact is extremely far from fact, that's when you get asked for links.

There is likely to be MUP in NI. There is likely to be a hard border with customs checks on the border.

You seem to have changed your position from fact to maybe. Truth is no one has a scaldynotion 2bats going to happen ref a hard border. Especially not stormont.

And no, I wouldn't happen to be a member of the VFI or a the Oireachtas, or indeed have any links to either the pub trade or the tourist trade.

Sorry, I posted that in jest. Probably should have used an emoji or something, but no i wasn't being serious.

Leroy42 wrote: »

How do the government get away with the current system around cigarettes?

Cigarettes are highly priced due to tax. There's no minimum price on them.

Alcohol isn't being taxed (even more) in this case, (handy that, as it would target the pubs and affect their viability you see )

There's your answer.

Leroy42

Has there been any research done (polls etc) on the pubic attitude to this. Many on here are making claims that the majority of people are against this, which based on my own view and my circle of friends I would agree with, but is there any actual hard evidence.

And of course, even if people say they are against it, is it actually something that really matters to them, enough to make them vote against their normal party/TD? How many of the population see this as a defining issue so much that they will vote for anybody who is against it regardless of their stance on other issues?

Mr. teddywinkles

elperello wrote: »

I hope they are right too but I wouldn't put money on it.
The big retailers won't have to bother about special offers on drink. They will just scoop up their share of the increased price and discount something else to get the crowds in.
I hope I'm wrong.

I'd say people who buy a few drinks at the weekend and such won't bother purchasing alcohol any more. And lot will be left on selves. Thick cnuts. They have deals on drinks due to excess stock in most cases. Proves only one thing. Consumption is down dramatically over the years.

Leroy42

Rick Shaw wrote: »

But if you present something as a fact, which in fact is extremely far from fact, that's when you get asked for links.

you are quite right, I should have said quite likely.

Rick Shaw wrote: »

You seem to have changed your position from fact to maybe. Truth is no one has a scaldynotion 2bats going to happen ref a hard border. Especially not stormont.

Again, you are right. In my defence, I was replying to a post that said they were going to go up the North every two weeks. I was trying to get across that there are many obstacles in the way of that plan.

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Sorry, I posted that in jest. Probably should have used an emoji or something, but no i wasn't being serious.

No offence was inferred or taken. In this type of debate, particularly when it is clear that at least one side undertakes significant lobbying it is correct to understand where someone is coming from.

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Cigarettes are highly priced due to tax. There's no minimum price on them.

Alcohol isn't being taxed (even more) in this case, (handy that, as it would target the pubs and affect their viability you see )

There's your answer.

Yes but now you are done to almost semantics. The post that I was replying to was saying this is anti-competitive etc and I was pointing out that in the case of cigarettes it is possible to set aside normal practices if one can show public good etc. Hence why cigarettes will be in plain packaging, no adverts, so signs in the shop etc.

I am sure they can easily argue that having a MUP effects everyone equally, just that the off-licence are currently selling below that.

Still Ill

Any chance of organising some sort of protest? This actually makes me so angry. Anyone who chooses to have a few drinks in a Friday night shouldn't have to be ripped off like this. I feel like the public really have to demonstrate how out of order this is and how out of touch the politicians are. The only way to do so is to get out in numbers. It worked for the water protesters.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

How do the government get away with the current system around cigarettes?

its a blanket tax. It affects both shops and pubs to the same amount. So a packet in a pub costs the same as a packet in a shop. Theres nothing stopping every pub adding a euro to a pack of smokes bought in a machine in a pub. The effect would be, people would stop buying them in pubs so they leave the prices the same.

Leroy42

The best form of protest is to simply stop buying the product, as you say we will be being ripped off.

So don't buy the products in the off licence that one day is €1 a can and then next is €2 for no apparent reason other than a hand to the vintners. At the same time boycott the pubs.

The VFI and TDs are banking on the majority of the public either not caring enough or not able to go without to make a significant impact on the sales.

elperello

worded wrote: »

What can be done to stop this Law going through?

Who can you write to or contact to voice your opinion ?

Is an on line petition possible ?

1- Sadly at this stage I think it's an uphill fight.
2- You.can email public reps and write to the papers
3- Excellent idea. Anyone able to organise it.

Two more suggestions of my own.
A- Prepare a fact sheet of the effect the current levels they propose for the MUP will have on the pocket of people drinking the 14/17 units per week. This would be circulated to public reps, media, social media etc.

B- Crowd fund for a legal opinion on the proposed legislation.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

its a blanket tax. It affects both shops and pubs to the same amount. So a packet in a pub costs the same as a packet in a shop. Theres nothing stopping every pub adding a euro to a pack of smokes bought in a machine in a pub. The effect would be, people would stop buying them in pubs so they leave the prices the same.

Yes I understand that, the poster to which I was replying was making the point about anti-competition ans I was using cigarettes, not based on pricing but based on the curb to adverts etc, as an example as to how governments can utilise 'public good' to get around this.

There is anti-competitive laws all over the place. You can't simply set up a bus company. You can't just set up an insurance company (well that was the idea!). There are plenty of industries where minimum standards must be met which make it difficult for new entrants to come into the market.

Leroy42

elperello wrote: »

1- Sadly at this stage I think it's an uphill fight.
2- You.can email public reps and write to the papers
3- Excellent idea. Anyone able to organise it.

Two more suggestions of my own.
A- Prepare a fact sheet of the effect the current levels they propose for the MUP will have on the pocket of people drinking the 14/17 units per week. This would be circulated to public reps, media, social media etc.

B- Crowd fund for a legal opinion on the proposed legislation.

it really needn't be that involved. Organise a dry day/week based on the tagline #notoMUP. (social media is not be area so not trying to suggest how best to do it).

Forget about the TD's. They are being pulled in two directions. Funds from the VFI and a possible vote from you. We all know which way that goes. So stop the source.

McMurphy

Still Ill wrote: »

Any chance of organising some sort of protest? This actually makes me so angry. Anyone who chooses to have a few drinks in a Friday night shouldn't have to be ripped off like this. I feel like the public really have to demonstrate how out of order this is and how out of touch the politicians are. The only way to do so is to get out in numbers. It worked for the water protesters.

Here's my suggestion, try and arrange a VFI members bar boycott at least one day each month, if not a whole weekend Fri-Mon morning.

People should instead either go without, or have good Friday style party's where the offies provide the booze.

Wouldn't take long before the lobbying the vintners demanded gets used against them and has the complete opposite affect.

A few weekends of their pocket being hit is all it would take to have the vintners back up in.arms again. The greedy hoors.

elperello

Leroy42 wrote: »

it really needn't be that involved. Organise a dry day/week based on the tagline #notoMUP. (social media is not be area so not trying to suggest how best to do it).

Forget about the TD's. They are being pulled in two directions. Funds from the VFI and a possible vote from you. We all know which way that goes. So stop the source.

I like your #notoMUP idea but due to most people don't understand what it is you will need facts to get them motivated. It's such a crock of a proposal that most people will be against it.
Agree about TDs being conflicted. Still worth having a go at them. At the end of the day Leo, Mehal and Gerry rule.
Sorry can't do Irish on this yoke no offence intended.

Fr Tod Umptious

Leroy42 wrote: »

it really needn't be that involved. Organise a dry day/week based on the tagline #notoMUP. (social media is not be area so not trying to suggest how best to do it).

Forget about the TD's. They are being pulled in two directions. Funds from the VFI and a possible vote from you. We all know which way that goes. So stop the source.

So if people stop drinking in protest it's a win win for the people who support MUP.

The new pricing has reduced consumption.

All these talk of protests etc, I wonder really how many are against this and how many really don't care.

I think a lot of the protesters would be in the demographic 18-35.

I'm 46 now, I could not give a hoot, but if I was 20 again, now that would be another story.

L1011

Leroy42 wrote: »

NI will be bringing in MUP at the same time.

NI has no government. They won't be bringing in anything.

There is a chance that the legislation could be passed and never commenced here; like the ban on giving loyalty points on alcohol that has been legislated for for a decade or so.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Rick Shaw wrote: »

Here's my suggestion, try and arrange a VFI members bar boycott at least one day each month, if not a whole weekend Fri-Mon morning.

People should instead either go without, or have good Friday style party's where the offies provide the booze.

Wouldn't take long before the lobbying the vintners demanded gets used against them and has the complete opposite affect.

A few weekends of their pocket being hit is all it would take to have the vintners back up in.arms again. The greedy hoors.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So if people stop drinking in protest it's a win win for the people who support MUP.

The new pricing has reduced consumption.

All these talk of protests etc, I wonder really how many are against this and how many really don't care.

I think a lot of the protesters would be in the demographic 18-35.

I'm 46 now, I could not give a hoot, but if I was 20 again, now that would be another story.

Wear badges with a notoMUP logo on it and then, instead of staying in once a weekend (needs to be more than once a month) wear the badges, go down the pub, but drink only tap-water.

Get that going in a few areas and you'll get the attnetion you need.