Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Leroy42

VinLieger wrote: »

Nope, its up to our own courts to decide if it break EU law, which it definitely does but if the Scottish courts are anything to go by ours will also say it doesn't

VinLieger wrote: »

VinLieger wrote: »

The problem is the vagueness of the EUCJ rulling

VinLieger wrote: »

Not sure how you reconcile these two comments. One you state is is absolutely against the law and the next you are saying the law is wide open.

What the EU ruling is saying is that it is up to the individual countries to legislate, within the law, and the courts of the country can use the EU law to determine the legality of the legislation.

I see nothing wrong with that approach.

VinLieger

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not sure how you reconcile these two comments. One you state is is absolutely against the law and the next you are saying the law is wide open.

What the EU ruling is saying is that it is up to the individual countries to legislate, within the law, and the courts of the country can use the EU law to determine the legality of the legislation.

I see nothing wrong with that approach.

Okay sorry in my opinion it definitely does break the law because there is nowhere near enough evidence that it is more proportionate or effective than using general taxation

elperello

I think Michael Healy Rae is wavering on this bill.
He was on tv 3 last night and spoke about how expensive wine is in Ireland compared to France.
If anyone has a connection you could brief him on the extra cost to his constituents who enjoy a drink at home.


Bad news for Offaly voters Marcella Corcoran Kennedy still supports the bill.
She was saying that alcohol is a Class A carcinogen and almost in the next sentence that the Bill won't affect pubs.
Apparently Offaly pubs have a magic process for taking the badness out of the drink!

https://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/1294/134852/0/The-Tonight-Show

VinLieger

elperello wrote: »

I think Michael Healy Rae is wavering on this bill.
He was on tv 3 last night and spoke about how expensive wine is in Ireland compared to France.
If anyone has a connection you could brief him on the extra cost to his constituents who enjoy a drink at home.


Bad news for Offaly voters Marcella Corcoran Kennedy still supports the bill.
She was saying that alcohol is a Class A carcinogen and almost in the next sentence that the Bill won't affect pubs.
Apparently Offaly pubs have a magic process for taking the badness out of the drink!

https://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/1294/134852/0/The-Tonight-Show

Think ive said this before but last year I heard a vintner lobbyist on the radio claim it was also about safety as people drinking in their homes was too unsafe because they could drink as much as they want and the only way to ensure their safety was to be served by and I quote "professionally trained barmen".........

Nice, almost balanced article in the Journal today. The last couple of articles I read it sounded like 100% of TDs were behind and 100% of senators. But the article in the journal suggests otherwise. Link here http://jrnl.ie/3664651

VinLieger

Deleted User wrote: »

Nice, almost balanced article in the Journal today. The last couple of articles I read it sounded like 100% of TDs were behind and 100% of senators. But the article in the journal suggests otherwise. Link here http://jrnl.ie/3664651

Unfortunately they are still peddling the lie from frances black that there's a swathe of lobbyists going against the bill which is complete garbage, if you check www.lobbying.ie you can easily see that the vast majority of lobbying connected to this bill is being done by the anti-alcohol crowd and the vintners who are both pro passing it

Leroy42

VinLieger wrote: »

Unfortunately they are still peddling the lie from frances black that there's a swathe of lobbyists going against the bill which is complete garbage, if you check www.lobbying.ie you can easily see that the vast majority of lobbying connected to this bill is being done by the anti-alcohol crowd and the vintners who are both pro passing it

Surely the supermarkets and the off-licence trade must be against this. The likes of Lidl and Aldi for example. I get that Vintners are a lobby group but they are not the only ones.

That bit doesn't make sense, it appears that there is no one (outside the general public) opposed to this move.

Has there been any polls done on the public's view of this?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

elperello wrote: »

I think Michael Healy Rae is wavering on this bill.
He was on tv 3 last night and spoke about how expensive wine is in Ireland compared to France.
If anyone has a connection you could brief him on the extra cost to his constituents who enjoy a drink at home.


Bad news for Offaly voters Marcella Corcoran Kennedy still supports the bill.
She was saying that alcohol is a Class A carcinogen and almost in the next sentence that the Bill won't affect pubs.
Apparently Offaly pubs have a magic process for taking the badness out of the drink!

https://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/1294/134852/0/The-Tonight-Show

She supports the legality of a class A substance?

VinLieger

Leroy42 wrote: »

Surely the supermarkets and the off-licence trade must be against this. The likes of Lidl and Aldi for example. I get that Vintners are a lobby group but they are not the only ones.

That bit doesn't make sense, it appears that there is no one (outside the general public) opposed to this move.

Has there been any polls done on the public's view of this?

Not that im aware of, im sure the retailers are lobbying but the vintners have more clout with the government due to how many TD's are publicans and then add on the anti alcohol groups and college of physicians types and the argument that theres a huge lobby against it doesn't really hold water. Ive done quite a few searches on that site and overwhelmingly the people lobbying about it are in support of it.

The problem is its hard publicly to be against it as you will have people with personal stories about drink drivers, family members with alcoholism or cancer etc and cries of "think of the children" completely drown you out

Dr Crayfish

Leroy42 wrote: »

Has there been any polls done on the public's view of this?

I saw one on the times or the journal and it was 87% against it, or something along those lines. I've never met anyone who agrees with it.

Why do the people not have a say in this?

Leroy42

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I saw one on the times or the journal and it was 87% against it, or something along those lines. I've never met anyone who agrees with it.

Why do the people not have a say in this?

If that is true, or even within the realms of the truth ( I don't mean you are not telling it correctly rather than the poll is correct), then it seems very odd that the TD's would continue to push this.

That being said, there are plenty of things the government do that would be against the wishes of many people but they justify on the basis of the greater good etc.

In this case, the only real greater good that can currently be argued is the need to protect and subsidise the pub trade But it that were the case, a tax could again be the better option. That tax could technically apply to only off-trade (would make little sense to charge it to pubs) but would go to the government rather than the manufacturer.

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

But it that were the case, a tax could again be the better option. That tax could technically apply to only off-trade (would make little sense to charge it to pubs) but would go to the government rather than the manufacturer.

No, that would definitely be anti-competitive and illegal.

MUP is framed to be arguably legal - no pubs are allowed sell below the MUP either (not that they were going to).

hatrickpatrick

Being debated right now in the Seanad. It does seem from recent articles that there's still an amount of dissent among backbenchers so it's probably still worth people writing to them etc.

Galwayguy35

Fergus Finlay was on The Last Word debating this earlier on, he really is a miserable oul fella who wants to push his misery on to moderate drinkers and punish us as well as the alcos.

Asus X540L

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Fergus Finlay was on The Last Word debating this earlier on, he really is a miserable oul fella who wants to push his misery on to moderate drinkers and punish us as well as the alcos.

That guy is a piece of work.
Remember it transpired he was taking a 200k salary from barnardos?

Sam Quentin

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

When most people who understand and see the devastating effects alcohol has on families and society in general... At the same time we have people who choose to have a blind eye on this, they sit there complaining and protesting about what I would consider a small step towards getting people to cut down on alcohol consumption....
It's an absolute disgrace that people who are considered adults would be unhappy with a simple bill.
This is only the start, nice to see the Government is starting to take notice of the totally unacceptable HUGE consumption of alcohol in Ireland..

http://alcoholireland.ie/publichealthbill/

Donal55

Sam Quentin wrote: »

When most people who understand and see the devastating effects alcohol has on families and society in general... At the same time we have people who choose to have a blind eye on this, they sit there complaining and protesting about what I would consider a small step towards getting people to cut down on alcohol consumption....
It's an absolute disgrace that people who are considered adults would be unhappy with a simple bill.
This is only the start, nice to see the Government is starting to take notice of the totally unacceptable HUGE consumption of alcohol in Ireland..

http://alcoholireland.ie/publichealthbill/

Its a bill to increase the price of alcohol. Responsible drinkers get hit again.

Stheno

Sam Quentin wrote: »

When most people who understand and see the devastating effects alcohol has on families and society in general... At the same time we have people who choose to have a blind eye on this, they sit there complaining and protesting about what I would consider a small step towards getting people to cut down on alcohol consumption....
It's an absolute disgrace that people who are considered adults would be unhappy with a simple bill.
This is only the start, nice to see the Government is starting to take notice of the totally unacceptable HUGE consumption of alcohol in Ireland..

http://alcoholireland.ie/publichealthbill/

Alcohol consumption has dropped significantly in ireland since 2005

https://amp.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/health-features/young-people-in-ireland-are-drinking-less-alcohol-than-their-parents-and-this-could-be-the-reason-why-35831374.html

Gone from 8th to 18th in the Eu

Noveight

95% of Irish alcohol consumers being punished for the actions of the 5% who over-consume recklessly. Not progress.

Sam Quentin

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Donal55 wrote: »

Its a bill to increase the price of alcohol. Responsible drinkers get hit again.

That's life, responsible drinkers shouldn't be concerned at all!?
As long as it's saving lives and cutting down on abuse in families and on the streets.
Cutting down on the health bill.
Cutting down on Garda man hours.

ziggyman17

Sam Quentin wrote: »

When most people who understand and see the devastating effects alcohol has on families and society in general... At the same time we have people who choose to have a blind eye on this, they sit there complaining and protesting about what I would consider a small step towards getting people to cut down on alcohol consumption....
It's an absolute disgrace that people who are considered adults would be unhappy with a simple bill.
This is only the start, nice to see the Government is starting to take notice of the totally unacceptable HUGE consumption of alcohol in Ireland..

http://alcoholireland.ie/publichealthbill/

wum...

mgbgt1978

Sam Quentin wrote: »

That's life, responsible drinkers shouldn't be concerned at all!?
As long as it's saving lives and cutting down on abuse in families and on the streets.
Cutting down on the health bill.
Cutting down on Garda man hours.

.....Raising Millions for the Government.:rolleyes:

Reckless Abandonment

I really think the government should chill out on things like this till brexit is sorted. Changes like this could effect jobs. advertising, retail.
Guinness will soon be a swear word .

Sam Quentin

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Noveight wrote: »

95% of Irish alcohol consumers being punished for the actions of the 5% who over-consume recklessly. Not progress.

With all due respect, I lmao at 5%

kingtiger

It got f-all to do with public health, more to do with the vintners lobby getting people back to the pub

Noveight

Sam Quentin wrote: »

With all due respect, I lmao at 5%

Pulled it from the top of my head. Is that number higher? Maybe, I dunno.

Bet you can't "lmao" at the logic though, can you?

freshpopcorn

Threads merged!

Leroy42

Sam Quentin wrote: »

That's life, responsible drinkers shouldn't be concerned at all!?
As long as it's saving lives and cutting down on abuse in families and on the streets.
Cutting down on the health bill.
Cutting down on Garda man hours.

And what is the basis for these claims?

What number of lives is this measure going to save?
What sort of money will it save from the health bill and what is the expectation of what this money will be spent on?
What are the current man hours taken up by people drinking at home? Will all of this be saved without any increase required to deal with the increase in numbers going out? Have you considered that this could potentially lead to an increase in drink driving as people are being told that drinking in the pub is better than staying at home?

Sam Quentin

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Leroy42 wrote: »

And what is the basis for these claims?

What number of lives is this measure going to save?
What sort of money will it save from the health bill and what is the expectation of what this money will be spent on?
What are the current man hours taken up by people drinking at home? Will all of this be saved without any increase required to deal with the increase in numbers going out? Have you considered that this could potentially lead to an increase in drink driving as people are being told that drinking in the pub is better than staying at home?

Agreed the savings at this stage wont be huge.
But it's a start and it's a message to the people of Ireland..
With, I would imagine and hope more stringent and tougher(as some may feel)bills and laws to come!?

I won't comment on your drink driving comments.DO NOT DRINK AND DRIVE, that train has passed, if you drink and drive may the full force of the law bear down upon you.

Ohmeha

Sam Quentin wrote: »

Agreed the savings at this stage wont be huge.
But it's a start and it's a message to the people of Ireland..
With, I would imagine and hope more stringent and tougher(as some may feel)bills and laws to come!?

Yes a message to the people of Ireland that we must increase the cost of already stupidly expensive alcohol to generate even more increased profits to the publican cartels under the vile guise that this is all about the population's health