Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

VinLieger

ardinn wrote: »

Thats not what it's aimed at though. Can you please identify where that is stated in the proposed legislation
!

FGs 2011 manifesto where this idea was first mooted about being specifically focused at healping publicans is proof enough, then you have the vintners support as well as the complete lack of any scientific evidence or even basic logical thinking that this would affect health in any way

Geuze

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Don't forget their subsidised bar that quite a few ran up very large unpaid tabs on.

Please, please stop saying that.

It isn't subsidised.

elperello

FYI
From the National Off License Association website

“As responsible independent retailers, NOffLA welcomes the Public Health (Alcohol) Bill as it ensures the highest standards around the purchase and consumption of alcohol. The introduction of minimum unit-pricing and affordable structural separation will ensure that alcohol is retailed responsibly. We urge the Government to progress the Bill through its various legislative stages so its benefits can be realised in communities across the country.

Geuze

Here is a 2015 version of the Bill:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2015/12015/document1.htm

Also details of the various stages.

Geuze

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2015/12015/b12015s-memo.pdf

Here is the explanatory memorandum.

elperello

Geuze wrote: »

Please, please stop saying that.

It isn't subsidised.

It actually makes a profit but it does serve drinks and meals at lower prices than nearby commercial establishments. It also provides credit which I presume the local pubs and restaurants do not.

Geuze

A quote from a senator this week:

Senator Jerry Buttimer: These days, young people are being encouraged to drink more. I would like to see a return to the pub being the only place where a person can drink alcohol because it was controlled and relatively safe. The barmen in the pubs at the time I was in college would not have tolerated any indiscretion. Minimum unit pricing is about setting a floor price below which alcohol cannot be sold. That is a pertinent point.


http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/seanad2017110800002?opendocument#DD00100

PCeeeee

'The barmen in the pubs at the time I was in college would not have tolerated any indiscretion'

FFS

TheChizler

mistersifter wrote: »

sorry if this has already been stated - but does anyone know roughly how much beer will cost under minimum pricing per litre? Today i saw Heineken on offer in tesco for 2.50 per litre (30 euro per tray). This is the cheapest I've seen Heineken - sometimes you it'll go down from it's "normal" price to about for 3 euro per litre.

It's per gram officially not per litre. Can of Heineken is 1.72 Irish units so €1.72 minimum.

If you want that per litre then €3.44.

my poor tortured hands

Geuze wrote: »

Here is a 2015 version of the Bill:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2015/12015/document1.htm

Also details of the various stages.

That page is fairly hard to follow. The documents themselves just have lots of amendments which are hard to follow.


The section below seems to allow retailers to include other products with the alcohol and it makes no difference.

Section 10, paragraph 7 wrote:

(7) Where an alcohol product is supplied or offered for sale together with another product (other than an alcohol product) or service, for a single price, this section shall apply as if the alcohol product concerned is supplied or offered for sale on its own for that price.

mistersifter

TheChizler wrote: »

It's per gram officially not per litre. Can of Heineken is 1.72 Irish units so €1.72 minimum.

If you want that per litre then €3.44.

3.44 per litre is way too expensive .really is. I mean what the **** are they tryin to do?

ardinn

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

listermint wrote: »

Hold on horse. The sector has had 9% tax since 2011.


Give up with this crap of struggling to get anything off the government.

9% tax and no increases on alcohol.

And yet you still can't innovate and get out from under the Diageo Heineken controlled drink selection.

You've only yourselves to blame. There's been a boom in whiskey and craft industry here yet you lads can't seem to get your ****e together.


Go figure......

The 9% rate is on food - again - go do your research and stop this rubbish your talking and making up!

TheChizler

mistersifter wrote: »

3.44 per litre is way too expensive .really is. I mean what the **** are they tryin to do?

Well if you buy Heineken by the can it's €5 per litre normally, so not very expensive from that point of view. It'll only affect the deals and dirt cheap beer really.

So essentially they're trying to stop people buying slabs for €24.

ardinn

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Ardinn, I'm just trying to make suggestions to help your industry to win back lost custom.

You seem happy to dismiss many on here as not qualified to discuss it yet its not like the VFI or others have the answer either. If they did they wouldn't fight against the smoking ban, coffee culture or deregulation.

Instead they want to restrict competition by use of legislation.

Maybe if you have tried all of this and still see no improvement most people would tell you the writing is on the wall.

But carry on and keep telling your customers that their opinion doesn't matter. If you are such an expert work it out yourself, just don't expect the rest of us to help protect your industry.

Apologies if i seem dismissive - but as you can see from a lot of posts, most people commenting on the issue know nothing about it. They simply see their drink is going up and its the vintners fault and thats that. We are all c*nts and money grabbing bastards.

Its quite hard to put up with - I realize public opinion is against me here and I will never "EVER" get out of this thread on top in anyones view but im here to have the discussion as best I can. With comments like "shove your bill up your hole" "Hold on there now horse" among other insults and above all, false and downright ignorant claims by people who clearly have no clue whats happening it's quite hard to not get a bit annoyed and come across dismissive.

Apologies to those who are genuinely having the discussion and offering an educated and reasonable opinion.

ardinn

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

elperello wrote: »

FYI
This is from the VFI website

November 9, 2017

Publicans urge Minister to expedite Public Health (Alcohol) Bill

The Vintners’ Federation of Ireland today (9th November) says it fully supports the provisions of the Public Health (Alcohol) Bill and urges Minister for Health Simon Harris to press ahead with implementation of the Bill.
Padraig Cribben, Chief Executive, VFI, states: “The Public Health (Alcohol) Bill is a serious piece of legislation that all medical experts agree will save lives. As publicans we fully support a Bill that will reduce misuse of alcohol through the introduction of minimum unit pricing. This will abolish the sale of ultra-cheap alcohol in supermarkets.
“There is a misconception that the drinks industry is totally opposed to the Bill. In reality, the pub sector along with independent off licences, who together form the major part of the drinks industry, support the Bill.”
Mr Cribben also addressed the impact the Bill would have on smaller retail outlets.
“Much has been made of the effect segregation of alcohol from other products will have on small retail outlets. This is a cynical move, initiated and supported by large retailers to distract from the fact they continue to use cheap alcohol as a loss leader and footfall driver.”
The VFI Chief Executive says the delay in progressing the Bill is frustrating and action needs to be taken.
“For two years the Bill has been discussed, debated and dissected with little or no progress. It’s now time for the Minister to step up and take decisive action,” he concluded.

Was that for me??

ardinn

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

VinLieger wrote: »

FGs 2011 manifesto where this idea was first mooted about being specifically focused at healping publicans is proof enough, then you have the vintners support as well as the complete lack of any scientific evidence or even basic logical thinking that this would affect health in any way

I dont see it sorry - Can you link please!

VinLieger

ardinn wrote: »

I dont see it sorry - Can you link please!

Page 27 section 5.3 "supporting irish pubs"

[url] https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://michaelpidgeon.com/manifestos/docs/fg/Fine%20Gael%20GE%202011.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwium8mM67fXAhXhDsAKHbnwC_cQFgglMAA&usg=AOvVaw1mq1Q4Vwp3IitUnKz1xY3o[/url]

ardinn

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

VinLieger wrote: »

Page 27 section 5.3 "supporting irish pubs"

[url] https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://michaelpidgeon.com/manifestos/docs/fg/Fine%20Gael%20GE%202011.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwium8mM67fXAhXhDsAKHbnwC_cQFgglMAA&usg=AOvVaw1mq1Q4Vwp3IitUnKz1xY3o[/url]

Page 27 is on crime and drugs - Please stop wasting my time - Another on the ignore list.

VinLieger

ardinn wrote: »

Page 27 is on crime and drugs - Please stop wasting my time - Another on the ignore list.

Section 5.3 its not that hard to find except for someone who obviously doesnt want to or more likely didnt even look.

Good to get confirmation of what you are though

Leroy42

ardinn wrote: »

Page 27 is on crime and drugs - Please stop wasting my time - Another on the ignore list.

He said page 27 section 5.3

So you took the first part of what he said and ignored the second part as you felt it helped your case.

On page 27 you are both right. They are talking about the page in terms of the total pages, you are looking at the numbered pages.

Before dismissing someones point maybe try to at least understand where they are coming from. On a number of occasions on this thread you have simply dismissed peoples arguments based on them not being qualified to talk about it.

What qualification do you have by the way? I am presuming that you have extension knowledge of both the pub trade in Ireland as well as an understanding of the trade in other countries and also an understanding of the health impacts of varying alcohol policies.

McMurphy

Anyone actively taking part in this thread that claims they aren't aware of the relevant section of the aforementioned manifesto that specifically mentions supporting the viability of Irish pubs, and selectively quoting posters, cutting text that must be unpalatable to them - then "placing that poster on ignore" is a vested interest troll.

I'm apparently on ignore.

But a few of you should quote this section to the lad who owns a couple of pubs and an offlicense, who reckons no-one binge drinks in a pub.

Supporting Irish Pubs:
Fine Gael recognises the importance of the Irish pub for tourism, rural jobs and as a social outlet in communities across the country.
We will support the local pub by banning the practice of below cost selling on alcohol, particularly by large supermarkets and the impact this has had on alcohol consumption and the viability of pubs.

Captain Obvious

This minimum pricing is all stick and no carrot. If you want to support the pubs then start by banning the VFI cartel. Then maybe rejig the laws to allow more freedom for opening hours but place more responsibility on sellers for who they sell to.

my poor tortured hands

Legalise cannabis for an immediate 30% reduction in harmful drinking. No downsides to the policy, except that publicans won't make money.

But cannabis can't even be used by doctors to treat children in this country, instead the children are forced to emmigrate in order that they can receive medical treatment. Completely despicable by Ireland.

elperello

From the website extracts that I posted last night it is clear that the publican's and off licence operators respective associations lobbied in favour of the bill and against the financial interests of a significant proportion of their customer base.

If you find that the cost of your home drinking is increased by the Bill it's important to know the background context.

Captain Obvious

my poor tortured hands wrote: »

Legalise cannabis for an immediate 30% reduction in harmful drinking. No downsides to the policy, except that publicans won't make money.

It's not exactly as simple as removing it from the banned list.

Capt'n Midnight

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

What are you trying to get across? I earn €4200/month gross. I enjoy the taste of Tesco lager. 4 cans of 3.8% beer (440ml each) for €2.64.

At least it's not Carlsberg :P


Here's the thing, if you drank something more expensive then the supermarkets wouldn't be forced to increase the price.

And the extra cost of your tipple has to come from somewhere. Either you have less savings or you spend less elsewhere, or you get a pay rise or a tax cut.

None of the above will put an extra cent into the health system though.

Also I'm willing to bet that the increase in price wont curtail your drinking pleasures.

weldoninhio

ardinn wrote: »

Thanks



Thats not what it's aimed at though. Can you please identify where that is stated in the proposed legislation



I believe it - and through first hand experience believe it will improve the health of those who over indulge simply because it's cheap. Whether or not you perceive this to be the government pricing out the poor or not - the fact is overall, consumption levels across the country will fall, and some of those with alcohol issues will find it more difficult to binge drink. Which is, to put it in very simple terms, good for their health!!



This has been ongoing for years with the VFI trying to get hackney licences etc available publicans in rural areas, taxi companies have no interest in operating at reduced rates - when people want taxi's they are allready busy at full price, and have no interest in hanging around rural areas for the chance of a couple of fares. Any taxis near us head to the towns at the weekends, we give our customers lifts home for free.

Coca cola again have a a designated driver scheme for years now, no-one uses it even though we have it advertised in our place. Free coke products for drivers.

No offence but your 2 "solutions" have been in effect for quite some time. I'd hazard a guess like many others posting in here your dont visit the pub very often!

If you are so worried about people binging and the effects on their health, why not implement a 2.5 pint limit in your bar? 3 pints is a binge according to the WHO.

flas

flas wrote: »

511 wrote: »

Distilling is illegal in Ireland.

It is,to sell it,but home brewing is not

No. Distilling is illegal without a license. Doesn't matter whether its for home use or selling, Distillation is illegal without a license.
Home brewing is completely legal though.

ardinn

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Leroy42 wrote: »

He said page 27 section 5.3

What qualification do you have by the way? I am presuming that you have extension knowledge of both the pub trade in Ireland as well as an understanding of the trade in other countries and also an understanding of the health impacts of varying alcohol policies.

Correct

ardinn

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Leroy42 wrote: »

He said page 27 section 5.3

So you took the first part of what he said and ignored the second part as you felt it helped your case.

On page 27 you are both right. They are talking about the page in terms of the total pages, you are looking at the numbered pages.

Before dismissing someones point maybe try to at least understand where they are coming from. On a number of occasions on this thread you have simply dismissed peoples arguments based on them not being qualified to talk about it.

What qualification do you have by the way? I am presuming that you have extension knowledge of both the pub trade in Ireland as well as an understanding of the trade in other countries and also an understanding of the health impacts of varying alcohol policies.

I thought he was taking the piss to be honest. Im not dismissing everyone - I have answered over 12 different people in this thread numerous times. I'll happily stay here and argue the point, but not with some of the people who are simply yodeling about there dutch gold going up and cant actually hold a proper conversation!