Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Snickers Man

buried wrote: »

lol True, if the government can bring in a minimum price for drink what's stopping them bringing in a maximum price for buying/renting a place to live?

Because that won't have the desired effect.
Either.

KrustyUCC

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

God.
F*cking.
DAMMIT.

Does this mean there's no chance of our own courts rejecting it on EU competition grounds? How similar are our legal systems in this regard?

I would think this sets the precident that our courts won't stray from

Shelflife

Deise Vu wrote: »

I don't know whether you deliberately twisted this or are being disingenuous but Guinness paid the €23 VAT to the Government who refunded that amount to Tesco who then paid the €18 to the Govt when they sold the product. The Govt is up €18 not out of pocket €5.

On the general point: We have among the highest excise duties in the EU. IF cheap drink is the problem why are the French and Italians not swamping cirrhosis clinics when they can buy gallons of wine for a few euro? And of course, Scandinavian countries must have a wonderfully mature attitude to alcohol considering how much they pay.

That ties in with my experience alright.:rolleyes:

This is true but then you go further back the chain and it gets more confusing.

The whole point of the VAT is that the product gets sold for more than they buy it in for, so the Revenue do actually lose out in the long run

Deise Vu

Shelflife wrote: »

This is true but then you go further back the chain and it gets more confusing.

No it doesn't. At every stage in the chain the manufacturer, or distributor or retailer charges VAT and pays it to the Govt and the next link in the chain reclaims that VAT, charges the following link and pays the Govt. At no point is the Govt out of pocket.

Shelflife wrote: »

The whole point of the VAT is that the product gets sold for more than they buy it in for, so the Revenue do actually lose out in the long run

See above.

Checkmate19

Once they get this in the min price will creep up over time. Alcohol consumption has being going down over the last ten years without the need for this. This is purely been pushed by publicans who want people back into pubs to buy drink at unaffordable prices. Didn't see any of them asking for this during the boom times when pubs where busy during the week. It won't affect myself either way but i really hope this bill doesn't see the light of day. There are many ways to tackle drink. Education less advertising are going to have more of an effect that this nonsense. If the govt wanted to really tackle the problem why not start by banning sporting organisations from allowing drink sponsors. However that won't fly as it would upset to many connected people.

Also noticed last night paddy power sponsoring the ireland game. Gambling in this country is as a big a blight on people. Don't see any calls for anyone wanting to tackle it. This bill is a complete an utter joke. Driven by the pub industry who have lobbied politican's over this. They have had 16 meetings on this bill. Drinks industry meeting over a health bill. Also during the boom times i bet bars never refused people who where drinking to much. I bet a lot of people know someone who drinks everyday in pubs (probably not as much now) but i bet they where never told by barman your drinking to much. So the pubs are not doing this lobbying for health concerns they are doing if for the financial benefit.

hatrickpatrick

KrustyUCC wrote: »

I would think this sets the precident that our courts won't stray from

Had a feeling. Have to rely on either stalling in the Oireachtas, or NI failing to introduce it I guess.

Snickers Man

Leroy42 wrote: »

There are so many ways that we can tackle this significant problem in our society. We have shown ourselves capable of significant change in attitudes and outcomes over the years.

True. So let's examine them in some detail.

Leroy42 wrote: »

The smoking ban,

Right. Good place to start. What has been the effect of the smoking ban?

Other than making the presence of beer farts more obvious in pubs because there are no longer glowing cigarette ends to burn off the methane? And giving the sanctimonious encouragement to bring in oppressive new legislation on the grounds that "Everybody copied our smoking ban so we can take the lead on doing something different knowing that we now lead the world in moral posturing and everybody else will follow us like the Gaderene Swine plummeting into a new world of self righteous virtue signalling"

Has the number of people smoking gone down since the ban on smoking in public places? I don't know the answer to this. I haven't seen any published research suggesting that it has. Smoking has indeed declined dramatically over the past few decades as the health consequences have been made perfectly apparent, the cost has gone up, promotions have been seriously curtailed and people have decided, on their own volition, that it is something they do not want to do.

I suspect, (I will stand corrected) that most if not all of the reductions in smoking took place BEFORE the ban came into being. What seems to be happening now is that we have reached bedrock, with a very small percentage of the population continuing to smoke and determinedly resisting any exhortations to do otherwise.

How do they react to price increases? Increasingly by shopping on the black or grey market. Ireland is reputedly the "european capital of cigarette smuggling" with vast volumes of cigarettes that were either purchased legally elsewhere in Europe and brought into the country "kinda sorta" legally being sold on the street or door to door. Not to mention the counterfeiting of big brands that goes on.

I'm not a smoker, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But I suspect the smoking ban has been of benefit only to those who DON'T smoke; it has had little effect on those who do. Or did.

Leroy42 wrote: »

plastic bag levy,

The plastic bag levy is a shining example of how a miniscule tax can encourage people to adopt an alternative practice, especially if they are encouraged to do so and it makes little difference to what they were doing anyway.

How much does a plastic bag cost? A few cents. How do you avoid this tax? Just bring your own feckin reusable bags when you make your weekly trip to the supermarket. What's the benefit? Less pollution, a cleaner environment, and much fewer tatty plastic bags stuck in trees. What's the cost? A little inconvenience but feck it, you were going shopping anyway. No big deal that you just brought your bags with you instead of expecting somebody to give you one for free.
Has anyone ever suggested that what is really needed to make this work is to put up the cost of plastic bags even more? No. Why? Because given the contrariness of human nature it would probably even be counterproductive.

Leroy42 wrote: »

seatbelts

Again. All that does is give people a little push into doing something that is of great benefit for almost zero inconvenience. What are teh good reasons for Not wearing a seatbelt?

Leroy42 wrote: »

Put together a coherent case, explain the rationale and bring everyone (or the majority) with you. Be prepared to debate against those that disagree, but have the facts. Simply saying that "something must be done" is not enough.

Well I would agree with absolutely everything you say there. But many of the government's moves actually contradict this fine methodology.

It equates moderate drinking with binge drinking.
Suggests that tolerating even the most responsible alcohol-drinking practice is "normalising" destructive behaviour.
Believes that ever higher pricing will deliver the sort of outcomes they want, ie reduced binge drinking, fewer alcohol-related diseases, etc etc

Unlike the plastic bag levy, for which there was a cost-free alternative that was proposed and encouraged, these moves are trying to force people into behaving in a way they DON'T want to. What will happen: people will modify their behaviour to continue drinking as they have always done. The rich will strip out their SUVs once or twice a year and head over to France to stock up for a few months. The less well off will be at the mercy of shebeens and illegal drinking dens run by organised crime.
Smuggling will be endemic
Addiction will hardly be affected at all. There is no price elasticity in addiction; you can charge an addict what you like; that's why they're called addicts.

I can be, indeed have been, persuaded that getting pissed every time I open my first can is not always fun and rarely good for me; that driving after several pints is dangerous and unacceptable; that being reckless with my health is expensive for society as a whole.

I have not been persuaded to embrace total abstinence. Or indeed to promise never to get pissed again, EVER. That means I want to enjoy alcohol in a normal, reasonable and responsible way.(mostly) But while you have "Health Care Professsionals" who say that such behaviour is merely a propaganda message from the "drinks lobby" it gets harder and harder to do that.

What you are really saying is "Treat people like adults, try to persuade them of your point of view and if it is valid, you may convince many of them to modify their behaviour"

Amen to that. But where does that lead to selling alcohol like it was kiddy porn and pricing what is essentially a combination of cereals, sugar, water and yeast as if it were diamonds?

elperello

Another strange thing about this is that if if it does work and all the self harming drinkers go on the dry and embrace pilates, mindfulness and yoga the only ones penalised by the Bill will be the rest of us normal home drinkers.

dreamers75

https://twitter.com/ConorHayes15/status/930506791678603265

Bobeagleburger

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

The queues for booze will be hilarious whenever a date is picked

Capt'n Midnight

ardinn wrote: »

Please elaborate on this. Genuinely interested on how you have come to this conclusion and the facts surrounding it!

Beer is very cheap to make. Feed barley is €133 a tonne.

Yes you need a better type of barley for brewing but remember too that beer is 95% water.

ohnonotgmail

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Beer is very cheap to make. Feed barley is €133 a tonne.

Yes you need a better type of barley for brewing but remember too that beer is 95% water.

what does that have to do with shops selling below cost? They're not brewing the beer themselves.

B.A._Baracus

Just watching BBC news there and said in Scotland you can get 4 cans of beer for a pound. What?!

I'm sure it's practically water but still. Has anyone ever seen 4 cans for 1.50 euro over here? Cheapest I know is lidl excelsor beer. Not that cheap tho.

Leroy42

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Just watching BBC news there and said in Scotland you can get 4 cans of beer for a pound. What?!

I'm sure it's practically water but still. Has anyone ever seen 4 cans for 1.50 euro over here? Cheapest I know is lidl excelsor beer. Not that cheap tho.

And that is where the whole thing falls down.

The alcohol is not cheap, only cheap in comparison to the pub and the more premium brands.

But in terms of price, we are way ahead of other countries already.

Does anyone have any idea what % of total consumption is currently sold at significantly lower than MUP.

Spanish Eyes

We never complain though to those who matter do we? I include myself in this.

We rant and rave and all that but do not put them under any pressure to listen to us!

I have just sent off emails to all my local TDs and Councillors. Seanad members are next.

I know it won't do much good, but at least I will have said my piece to the Nannys.

macnug

B.A._Baracus wrote:

Just watching BBC news there and said in Scotland you can get 4 cans of beer for a pound. What?!

B.A._Baracus wrote:

I'm sure it's practically water but still. Has anyone ever seen 4 cans for 1.50 euro over here? Cheapest I know is lidl excelsor beer. Not that cheap tho.

I don't know about 4 for a pound but I've heard 2 for a pound in Manchester. I wouldn't be surprised though because Coors light in tesco UK is on special, 30 cans for £20 so what €24. Cheapest over here is 24 for €30, that's a massive difference.

hatrickpatrick

I still reckon beer kits will be the way forward for offies. And if they can figure out a way of selling post-brewing, pre-booze stuff which just needs to be let sit for a while before it counts as selling alcohol - or selling post-brewing, pre-bottle conditioning beer which has a ridiculously low ABV at the point of sale, but matures into a decently mid-strength beer after being stored for a week or two, they'll be good to go.

I've never brewed myself, but realistically, how much can the ABV of a beer increase after bottling, during bottle conditioning / carbonation? Would it be possible to sell a still-fermenting bottled mix which is at 2-3% ABV and have it ultimately end up at 4-5% without much intervention from the buyer other than storage?

Ipso

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I still reckon beer kits will be the way forward for offies. And if they can figure out a way of selling post-brewing, pre-booze stuff which just needs to be let sit for a while before it counts as selling alcohol - or selling post-brewing, pre-bottle conditioning beer which has a ridiculously low ABV at the point of sale, but matures into a decently mid-strength beer after being stored for a week or two, they'll be good to go.

I've never brewed myself, but realistically, how much can the ABV of a beer increase after bottling, during bottle conditioning / carbonation? Would it be possible to sell a still-fermenting bottled mix which is at 2-3% ABV and have it ultimately end up at 4-5% without much intervention from the buyer other than storage?

It can't unless you add some sugar prior to bottling, but then the bottle may explode as the yeast eating sugar produces CO2 (which creates the fizz) but when too much is produced you run the risk of what is known as bottle bombs.

Dr Crayfish

Now that Scotland had it passed our crooks will feel even more justified in introducing this ridiculous legislation. I emailed all my TDs already, and I'll stay true to my word and wont vote for any of them ever again after this is introduced.

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I still reckon beer kits will be the way forward for offies. And if they can figure out a way of selling post-brewing, pre-booze stuff which just needs to be let sit for a while before it counts as selling alcohol - or selling post-brewing, pre-bottle conditioning beer which has a ridiculously low ABV at the point of sale, but matures into a decently mid-strength beer after being stored for a week or two, they'll be good to go.

I've never brewed myself, but realistically, how much can the ABV of a beer increase after bottling, during bottle conditioning / carbonation? Would it be possible to sell a still-fermenting bottled mix which is at 2-3% ABV and have it ultimately end up at 4-5% without much intervention from the buyer other than storage?

This just wouldn't work at all. Who's making it, packaging/labelling etc would be a nightmare. Easier to just start selling homebrew kits, equipment and ingredients.

Zubeneschamali

Snickers Man wrote: »

Right. Good place to start. What has been the effect of the smoking ban?

Smoking rate in 2003 was 28.3%. The ban came in in 2004.

2003: 28.3%
:
2013: 21.5%
2014: 19.5%
2015: 19.2%
2016: 18.7%
2017: 17.6%

So smoking in adults is down by over one third since the ban came in.

Did the ban cause it? Harder to say. In 1998 I see 33% quoted, which means the rate was already dropping when the ban came in.

ohnonotgmail

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Smoking rate in 2003 was 28.3%. The ban came in in 2004.

2003: 28.3%
:
2013: 21.5%
2014: 19.5%
2015: 19.2%
2016: 18.7%
2017: 17.6%

So smoking in adults is down by over one third since the ban came in.

Did the ban cause it? Harder to say. In 1998 I see 33% quoted, which means the rate was already dropping when the ban came in.

lets not forget that non-smokers no longer come home from the pub stinking of tobacco. or get exposed to cancer causing substances.

VinLieger

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I still reckon beer kits will be the way forward for offies. And if they can figure out a way of selling post-brewing, pre-booze stuff which just needs to be let sit for a while before it counts as selling alcohol - or selling post-brewing, pre-bottle conditioning beer which has a ridiculously low ABV at the point of sale, but matures into a decently mid-strength beer after being stored for a week or two, they'll be good to go.

I've never brewed myself, but realistically, how much can the ABV of a beer increase after bottling, during bottle conditioning / carbonation? Would it be possible to sell a still-fermenting bottled mix which is at 2-3% ABV and have it ultimately end up at 4-5% without much intervention from the buyer other than storage?

It might be possible however moving the container and even slight temperature changes can really effect the process of fermentation making this idea likely logistically quite difficult

Zubeneschamali

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

lets not forget that non-smokers no longer come home from the pub stinking of tobacco. or get exposed to cancer causing substances.

As a never-smoker, I love the ban.

But the question of whether it caused a reduction in smoking is not a simple one to answer.

Checkmate19

Smoking ban did reduce smoking but also less people are going to pubs anyway so less smoking. People smoke alot more when drinking and some people smoke only when drinking.

Once Scotland has put this in place we are next. Once they get it in the min price will creep over time. This is going to increase costs for people who enjoy a few drinks responsibly but cant ( or don't want to go to pubs). Publicans are crying that there business is down put all they seem to do is increase prices. They had it so good for so long. Now business is down they are supporting a health drink bill. This is a complete and utter sham. There are many ways to tackle this problem. A problem that is on its own decreasing. As i said blanket ban advertising. That won't happen as to many influential bodies would kick up murder. Only people this is really going to effect is the less well off enjoying a responsible drink. Hardened drinkers will find a way to get drink. Write to your td as i'm going to. We are becoming a bleeding nanny state. Bet the next thing is a takeaway tax. Where is been allowed to have some personal responsiblity gone. The present government are a complete pain in the arse. They would be better off trying to sort housing and the health service than wasting time on this nonsense that will achieve little.

ardinn

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Checkmate19 wrote: »

Smoking ban did reduce smoking but also less people are going to pubs anyway so less smoking. People smoke alot more when drinking and some people smoke only when drinking.

Once Scotland has put this in place we are next. Once they get it in the min price will creep over time. This is going to increase costs for people who enjoy a few drinks responsibly but cant ( or don't want to go to pubs). Publicans are crying that there business is down put all they seem to do is increase prices. They had it so good for so long. Now business is down they are supporting a health drink bill. This is a complete and utter sham. There are many ways to tackle this problem. A problem that is on its own decreasing. As i said blanket ban advertising. That won't happen as to many influential bodies would kick up murder. Only people this is really going to effect is the less well off enjoying a responsible drink. Hardened drinkers will find a way to get drink. Write to your td as i'm going to. We are becoming a bleeding nanny state. Bet the next thing is a takeaway tax. Where is been allowed to have some personal responsiblity gone. The present government are a complete pain in the arse. They would be better off trying to sort housing and the health service than wasting time on this nonsense that will achieve little.

So prices went up this year due to supplier increases.

Now, lobbying by the vintners towards government and the drink suppliers has resulted in no price increases on alcohol (at least in our own, and other local and county pubs) for the last 6 yrs.

The bolded bit above is the same shyte spewed out by people ignorant on the issue day in day out.

Now, there is exceptions, always exceptions, but the vast majority (in my experience anyway) have not increased there prices in that space of time.

Your blanket generalizations are false!

hawkelady

ardinn wrote: »

Checkmate19 wrote: »

Smoking ban did reduce smoking but also less people are going to pubs anyway so less smoking. People smoke alot more when drinking and some people smoke only when drinking.

Once Scotland has put this in place we are next. Once they get it in the min price will creep over time. This is going to increase costs for people who enjoy a few drinks responsibly but cant ( or don't want to go to pubs). Publicans are crying that there business is down put all they seem to do is increase prices. They had it so good for so long. Now business is down they are supporting a health drink bill. This is a complete and utter sham. There are many ways to tackle this problem. A problem that is on its own decreasing. As i said blanket ban advertising. That won't happen as to many influential bodies would kick up murder. Only people this is really going to effect is the less well off enjoying a responsible drink. Hardened drinkers will find a way to get drink. Write to your td as i'm going to. We are becoming a bleeding nanny state. Bet the next thing is a takeaway tax. Where is been allowed to have some personal responsiblity gone. The present government are a complete pain in the arse. They would be better off trying to sort housing and the health service than wasting time on this nonsense that will achieve little.

So prices went up this year due to supplier increases.

Now, lobbying by the vintners towards government and the drink suppliers has resulted in no price increases on alcohol (at least in our own, and other local and county pubs) for the last 6 yrs.

The bolded bit above is the same shyte spewed out by people ignorant on the issue day in day out.

Now, there is exceptions, always exceptions, but the vast majority (in my experience anyway) have not increased there prices in that space of time.

Your blanket generalizations are false!

Did you ever consider lowering your prices to attract customers back in ?? Your prices stayed the same during the downturn !! My heart bleeds for you !

Asus X540L

Probably posted already, but Dutch Mould posted this on FB.
6.32 doesn't seem too bad I heard it was 2 euro minimum per gatt

Rugbyfan266

Asus X540L wrote: »

Probably posted already, but Dutch Mould posted this on FB.
6.32 doesn't seem too bad I heard it was 2 euro minimum per gatt

Hardly the point tho is it

ardinn

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

hawkelady wrote: »

Did you ever consider lowering your prices to attract customers back in ?? Your prices stayed the same during the downturn !! My heart bleeds for you !

No, as every other cost I have has gone up, and lowering prices will not entice enough new business or encourage anyone of my customers to drink more. Maybe in populations centers this would be an option with promotions etc, but not where I am.

Your heart bleeds easily!