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Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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    #1892
    Checkmate19
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭Checkmate19


    get on to tds. leo is behind this ****e. fg and ff are the same.


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    #1893
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    what does that have to do with shops selling below cost? They're not brewing the beer themselves.
    And exactly what sort of margin do you think breweries make on Supermarkets own brand ?

    Excluding VAT and Excise they'd have to sell the cans for half nothing. Look at how much a can of kidney beans costs in the discounters for something that's got similar or higher transport, packaging and ingredient costs.


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    #1894
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,885 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/c-c-leaves-bitter-taste-signalling-virtue-over-minimum-pricing-1.3294593

    An interesting article from last Friday's Irish Times. A bit long to put in a post but worth the effort to read.


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    #1895
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,967 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Checkmate19 wrote: »
    get on to tds. leo is behind this ****e. fg and ff are the same.

    Its supported by all parties, theres not one TD or senator who has voiced opposition regarding the ass backwards logic underlying the whole bill


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    #1896
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    And exactly what sort of margin do you think breweries make on Supermarkets own brand ?

    Excluding VAT and Excise they'd have to sell the cans for half nothing. Look at how much a can of kidney beans costs in the discounters for something that's got similar or higher transport, packaging and ingredient costs.


    a very low margin i imagine. They are still not selling it below cost.


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    #1897
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,885 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Its supported by all parties, theres not one TD or senator who has voiced opposition regarding the ass backwards logic underlying the whole bill

    Just one but he is a professor of the Dismal Science so don't expect too much!

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/is-bill-a-drinks-sector-bailout-1.3298797


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    #1898
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Its supported by all parties, theres not one TD or senator who has voiced opposition regarding the ass backwards logic underlying the whole bill

    While that is what is being reported in the media, and the whips of the major parties want the public to believe that, there is actually quite a bit of resentment and frustration in both the Dail and Seanad over this bill. If it genuinely had 100% support it would have passed long ago.

    The truth which is being hidden from the public is a number of Independents have raised concerns and objections, and a number of back benchers across multiple parties have criticised the bill. Its not all over yet.


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    #1899
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,885 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    a very low margin i imagine. They are still not selling it below cost.

    It doesn't really matter to us we are price takers.
    They do their sums and we either buy or not in a free market.
    MUP creates a false floor to the market.


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    #1900
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    elperello wrote: »
    It doesn't really matter to us we are price takers.
    They do their sums and we either buy or not in a free market.
    MUP creates a false floor to the market.


    i agree. i still dont understand the point Capt'n Midnight was trying to make.


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    #1901
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Deleted User wrote: »
    While that is what is being reported in the media, and the whips of the major parties want the public to believe that, there is actually quite a bit of resentment and frustration in both the Dail and Seanad over this bill. If it genuinely had 100% support it would have passed long ago.

    The truth which is being hidden from the public is a number of Independents have raised concerns and objections, and a number of back benchers across multiple parties have criticised the bill. Its not all over yet.

    I'd certainly believe this, but from what I've seen that isn't related to the minimum pricing aspect. Where are you getting this from?
    From my viewing of this, it seems that the major objection is to asking shops to reorganise their layouts. Most people who filibustered in the Seanad seemed to be saying "yeah, I like minimum pricing, but this structural separation aspect is BS".

    I sincerely hope you're right, but it doesn't at face value appear to be the case...


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    #1902
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,885 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I'd certainly believe this, but from what I've seen that isn't related to the minimum pricing aspect. Where are you getting this from?
    From my viewing of this, it seems that the major objection is to asking shops to reorganise their layouts. Most people who filibustered in the Seanad seemed to be saying "yeah, I like minimum pricing, but this structural separation aspect is BS".

    I sincerely hope you're right, but it doesn't at face value appear to be the case...

    I think they have responded to the various lobbying efforts and let's face it they haven't had any organised lobbying against MUP.

    Health hand wringers, various NGO'S, publicans , off licence owners, shop keepers etc. etc. have all been in their face.

    A lot of them probably have never heard the anti MUP argument.


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    #1903
    MadYaker
    Registered Users Posts: 12,210 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    Is this only going to effect the really cheap booze like €4 bottles of wine cans that are 4 for a fiver etc? Because if it is that's ok really, most of that stuff is undrinkable anyway.


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    #1904
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,596 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    MadYaker wrote: »
    Is this only going to effect the really cheap booze like €4 bottles of wine cans that are 4 for a fiver etc? Because if it is that's ok really, most of that stuff is undrinkable anyway.

    Thats your opinion. But what if they decide that the stuff that you happen to like should double in price? Or that you should be limited to how much you can buy?

    Apart from the pros and cons of this particular legislation, as was pointed out some pages ago, this is basically the government telling grown adults what to do and what not to do. And not only telling them but trying to force them to comply.

    Thats fine when you are a danger to others (speeding, smoking etc) but having a drink in your own house is now going to be governed by the state.


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    #1905
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,909 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Wonder is Leo's optics team out all over this because this is one that he seems to treasure


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    #1906
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,885 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    MadYaker wrote: »
    Is this only going to effect the really cheap booze like €4 bottles of wine cans that are 4 for a fiver etc? Because if it is that's ok really, most of that stuff is undrinkable anyway.

    It will put in a minimum price of €7.50 for wine so someone who is currently able to buy perfectly palatable wines on offer or with discounts for €5.50 will pay €2 extra. If they buy 1 per week that's about €100 per year extra.

    Likewise with beers a previous poster calculated that Grafenwalder (a pretty good beer sold in Lidl) will go up from €1.15 to €1.89. If you are drinking 1 can a day you will pay €259 a year extra.


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    #1907
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,596 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    And you are paying it for no benefit to anyone other than the retailer/distributor.

    Not one penny of the annual €250 charge will go towards rehab centers, towards education, towards extra garda or even bloody water pipes.


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    #1908
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,885 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    And you are paying it for no benefit to anyone other than the retailer/distributor.

    Not one penny of the annual €250 charge will go towards rehab centers, towards education, towards extra garda or even bloody water pipes.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/is-bill-a-drinks-sector-bailout-1.3298797

    Senator Sean Barrett shows here that the Oireachtas own research puts it at a gift of €78.3 million to the drinks trade.


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    #1909
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,494 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    elperello wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/is-bill-a-drinks-sector-bailout-1.3298797

    Senator Sean Barrett shows here that the Oireachtas own research puts it at a gift of €78.3 million to the drinks trade.

    could probably be challenged under the state aid rules then?


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    #1910
    MadYaker
    Registered Users Posts: 12,210 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    Is Leo going to strong arm this through the dail since it seems to be his baby or will there be debate?


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    #1911
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    elperello wrote: »
    It will put in a minimum price of €7.50 for wine so someone who is currently able to buy perfectly palatable wines on offer or with discounts for €5.50 will pay €2 extra. If they buy 1 per week that's about €100 per year extra.

    Likewise with beers a previous poster calculated that Grafenwalder (a pretty good beer sold in Lidl) will go up from €1.15 to €1.89. If you are drinking 1 can a day you will pay €259 a year extra.
    Aldi's Galahad will also go up to €1.89
    but it's only 73.25c a can so that would be €422 a year extra.



    [URL="ttps://www.tesco.ie/groceries/product/search/default.aspx?searchBox=Budweiser"]
    Tesco are selling[/URL] a 500ml Bud for €2.19 , 12 cans of Bud for €18 and 24 for €24.

    Technically if they are selling 24 cans for €6 more than 12 cans then the extra cans are just 50c each ??

    Maybe stop supermarkets offering volume discounts ?
    If you have an addictive traits it's much easier to resist the temptation to have another one if you didn't buy them in the first place.


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    #1912
    KrustyUCC
    Registered Users Posts: 6,037 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    St Etienne will be the same price as Grafenwalder

    Galahad will go to €1.58 a can

    97% price increase

    It's only 4% so hardly strong beer

    I presume the minimum pricing will apply per can from now on so


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    #1913
    elperello
    Registered Users Posts: 14,885 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Aldi's Galahad will also go up to €1.89
    but it's only 73.25c a can so that would be €422 a year extra.



    [URL="ttps://www.tesco.ie/groceries/product/search/default.aspx?searchBox=Budweiser"]
    Tesco are selling[/URL] a 500ml Bud for €2.19 , 12 cans of Bud for €18 and 24 for €24.

    Technically if they are selling 24 cans for €6 more than 12 cans then the extra cans are just 50c each ??

    Maybe stop supermarkets offering volume discounts ?
    If you have an addictive traits it's much easier to resist the temptation to have another one if you didn't buy them in the first place.

    Buying drink never damaged anyone's health or caused trouble at home or on the street.
    It's only when you drink it that the damage can be done.

    The people suffering addiction deserve to be helped to address their issues in a constructive holistic way. This is just a blunt instrument which will leave people with their addictions untreated.


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    #1914
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    MadYaker wrote: »
    Because if it is that's ok really, most of that stuff is undrinkable anyway.

    Not really the point. I like crafts and don't buy that kind of beer either but other people do. It's still a poor law even if it won't really affect me.


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    #1915
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    elperello wrote: »
    Buying drink never damaged anyone's health or caused trouble at home or on the street.
    It's only when you drink it that the damage can be done.

    The people suffering addiction deserve to be helped to address their issues in a constructive holistic way. This is just a blunt instrument which will leave people with their addictions untreated.
    It's very easy to resist the temptation to have one more biscuit when the pack is empty, takes exactly zero willpower.

    If they only sold biscuits in 200 packs then you're more likely to have another biscuit simply because it's there.


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    #1916
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    It's very easy to resist the temptation to have one more biscuit when the pack is empty, takes exactly zero willpower.

    If they only sold biscuits in 200 packs then you're more likely to have another biscuit simply because it's there.

    Rubbish, your comparing two very different things.
    I bought a box of beer recently as I had visitors, they drank half the box, the other half is still there untouched.
    I've a cabinet full of drink of all sorts and rarely do I ever have one. I like to indulge on the 4 for €10 deals in the offie every now and then to do me over a weekend but the price of these will rocket if MUP is enacted.


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    #1917
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,596 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    It's very easy to resist the temptation to have one more biscuit when the pack is empty, takes exactly zero willpower.

    If they only sold biscuits in 200 packs then you're more likely to have another biscuit simply because it's there.

    So should the government now stop all sales of everything? I mean, do we really need two pairs of shoes? Or why buy the multipack of tissues. Make do with a single, more expensive, pack.

    Every business is run on the ability to bulk buy, but apparently the general public is too uncontrolled to be able to handle that sort of thing.


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    #1918
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So should the government now stop all sales of everything? I mean, do we really need two pairs of shoes? Or why buy the multipack of tissues. Make do with a single, more expensive, pack.

    Every business is run on the ability to bulk buy, but apparently the general public is too uncontrolled to be able to handle that sort of thing.

    I bought a sliced pan last night and had 6 slices with my tea. Thats right. I binged on bread. Maybe to help fight the obesity crisis the government should ban full sliced pans in favour of half pans. To protect people like me from themselves.


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    #1919
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,502 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    MadYaker wrote: »
    Is this only going to effect the really cheap booze like €4 bottles of wine cans that are 4 for a fiver etc? Because if it is that's ok really, most of that stuff is undrinkable anyway.

    Well lets say that in the current market there are three brands of beer:

    1) Poopenspatz lager at €1.25 a can
    2) Craftenhausen pale ale at €2.50 a can
    3) Hipstersteins trappist reserve at €5 a bottle.

    Poopenspatz goes up to €2 as a matter of law, then the Craftenstein guys say "hold on a minute our beer used to sell for twice the entry level price because we put better hops and organic barley into ours, so we should charge a fiver now". Once that happens, Hipstersteins beer is available for the same price as Craftenhausnes so everyone switches to Hipstersteins and they run out of stock. "Lets jack up the price to a tenner", says Mr. Hipsterstein, "just because we can".

    So in marketing terms, each item is sold at a premium relative to the entry level item because people will pay more for a perceived better product.

    This is all the more likely to happen in Poopenspatz, Craftenhausen and Hipsterstein are all owned by AlcoInternational LTD, so they can all work together to shaft us all out of our hard earned cash.

    If this came in, Id love to see Irish people stock up like the bejaysus or go up north and boycott all pubs and offlicences with the new higher prices. I mean, if we could as a nation organise a mass protest/boycott movement over bloody water, imagine what itll be like when they mess with out happy juice!


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    #1920
    MadYaker
    Registered Users Posts: 12,210 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    Everyone will start brewing their own. I've started doing it and I know loads of other who are doing it too. It doesn't require much effort, first attempts are rubbish but it gets better.


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    #1921
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Well lets say that in the current market there are three brands of beer:

    1) Poopenspatz lager at €1.25 a can
    2) Craftenhausen pale ale at €2.50 a can
    3) Hipstersteins trappist reserve at €5 a bottle.

    Well, we know how things used to look before Aldi and Lidl arrived - no-one sold anything at 75c a can, but nobody sold crap like Galahad at all.

    That's what I expect to happen: Lidl can sell Heino at 1.50 a can today (if you buy 8 cans), so they will absolutely sell Heino for the absolute minimum after MUP comes in no matter what the brewery says. €2 a can Heino means Aldi will simply stop selling Galahad - no-one will buy it.

    And the Irish craft brewers do not sell their stuff at €3 a bottle because they sell all they can make and are coining it, or because they are trying to differentiate their product from cheap muck - they simply can't make it as cheaply as the giant brewers can. If MUP allows them to take a bigger market share at €3 a bottle, they'll be delighted.


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