Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

listermint

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Well, we know how things used to look before Aldi and Lidl arrived - no-one sold anything at 75c a can, but nobody sold crap like Galahad at all.

That's what I expect to happen: Lidl can sell Heino at 1.50 a can today (if you buy 8 cans), so they will absolutely sell Heino for the absolute minimum after MUP comes in no matter what the brewery says. €2 a can Heino means Aldi will simply stop selling Galahad - no-one will buy it.

And the Irish craft brewers do not sell their stuff at €3 a bottle because they sell all they can make and are coining it, or because they are trying to differentiate their product from cheap muck - they simply can't make it as cheaply as the giant brewers can. If MUP allows them to take a bigger market share at €3 a bottle, they'll be delighted.

Clearly you dont remember Crazy Prices.


There is a bit of a love in to blame Lidl and Aldi but its void of facts
There is also a bit of a love in to blame below cost selling, when its a red herring there is not reality of below cost selling. They are not selling the beers at below the cost they get it from distributors.

Red Herring. and a great headline for Harris and his buddies.

jasper100

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not one penny of the annual €250 charge will go towards rehab centers, towards education, towards extra garda or even bloody water pipes.

Of course that's not true at all. 23% of the €250 goes to the government in VAT, which trickles down to help fund all of the above.

Zubeneschamali

listermint wrote: »

There is a bit of a love in to blame Lidl and Aldi but its void of facts

I don't blame them, I think it's great. I would never buy or drink Galahad, but €2 Franziskaner is a) excellent and b) puts manners on Tesco.

Zubeneschamali

jasper100 wrote: »

23% of the €250 goes to the government in VAT

Or we could increase excise duty, and 100% would go to the government. Now why wouldn't the drinks trade be lobbying for a change like that?

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

Is Leo going to strong arm this through the dail since it seems to be his baby or will there be debate?

He can if he likes but MUP won't be introduced until NI does it simultaneously. Utter hilarity if it goes ahead unilaterally because you will a need a 10 lane motorway to the border to be built to cope with demand. So SF & DUP take your time in getting that government up and running again up there.......;)

McMurphy

MadYaker wrote: »

Is Leo going to strong arm this through the dail since it seems to be his baby or will there be debate?

The way things are going for Leo he might not even be Taoiseach come Christmas.

I have a feeling MUP is far from his fleeting mind at the minute.

andekwarhola

The claims that crafts will jack up in price to differentiate from cheaper beer is just a surmise.

As said, more people will probably try crafts if they're closer in price to other beers thus possibly increasing sales without price increases.

Plus there's no wriggle room for competition with cheaper beers because of MUP but if shop A decides to jack up craft prices arbitrarily, shop B still has scope to undercut them and provide competition.

Ted Plain

€2 for a Franziskaner is a bit lavish seeing as how it only costs about 70c in Germany.

Here's one on offer at the moment in Kaufland, which is Lidl's other supermarket chain:

https://www.kaufland.de/angebote/aktuelle-woche/angebotsdetailseite.so_id=2377901.html

Oettinger. This is something of a cult beer, I guess somewhat like Dutch Gold here. Anyway, on special at 24c a bottle. Regardless, of how downmarket the brand is this is 500ml of German beer, 4.7% for the Pils, 5.4% for the Export, or even 0% for the same price. The normal, full price is 32c a bottle.

Then you have Rabeberger:

https://www.kaufland.de/angebote/aktuelle-woche/angebotsdetailseite.so_id=2320729.html

Arguably one of the most prestigious beer brands in Germany, and to be had today for 50c a bottle. The normal price is 69c a bottle.

Our crooks must really think we're still in the 1960s with nothing but Telly Eireann to instruct us on how things are.

andekwarhola

One other thing I thought about that will hurt retailers a little is trying to offload short dated beers at discount.

McMurphy

andekwarhola wrote: »

One other thing I thought about that will hurt retailers a little is trying to offload short dated beers at discount.

I actually never thought of this.

Retailers with short dated beer would have no choice but to either sell them before BB/Sale by dates. Or bin them.

elperello

Rick Shaw wrote: »

I actually never thought of this.

Retailers with short dated beer would have no choice but to either sell them before BB/Sale by dates. Or bin them.

Neither did I.
If they can't recover some of their costs they will lose money.
This will affect customers because it will be reflected in pricing.
Also likely to lead to less choice in that they won't take a chance in stocking product that will go down to zero value.

andekwarhola

elperello wrote: »

Neither did I.
If they can't recover some of their costs they will lose money.
This will affect customers because it will be reflected in pricing.
Also likely to lead to less choice in that they won't take a chance in stocking product that will go down to zero value.

It's just highlights the lack of foresight that goes into these hairbrained pieces of legislation.

Gerrup Outta Dat!

MadYaker wrote: »

Is this only going to effect the really cheap booze like €4 bottles of wine cans that are 4 for a fiver etc? Because if it is that's ok really, most of that stuff is undrinkable anyway.

That’s your opinion. What if I want a cheap bottle of red to marinate some beef?

Gerrup Outta Dat!

MadYaker wrote: »

Is this only going to effect the really cheap booze like €4 bottles of wine cans that are 4 for a fiver etc? Because if it is that's ok really, most of that stuff is undrinkable anyway.

That’s your opinion. What if I want a cheap bottle of red to marinate some beef?

elperello

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

That’s your opinion. What if I want a cheap bottle of red to marinate some beef?

You are caught in the grip of this stupid Bill just by buying drink.


You don't even have to be a drinker. As above you might want a bottle of wine for cooking. You could be buying a can of Guinness to make a cake. You might be a teetotaler buying some drinks in for guests.

Capt'n Midnight

jasper100 wrote: »

Of course that's not true at all. 23% of the €250 goes to the government in VAT, which trickles down to help fund all of the above.

Money doesn't grow on trees.

To increase spending on alcohol you need some combination of getting more income, reducing spending or dipping into your savings.

If you reduce spending then it's very likely that most of the things you would be spending on would have the full rate of VAT so no change.

Reputable Rog

Looks like the government is going to collapse, get ready to badger your TD's and hopefuls when they come a knockin.
Nothing like a general election to lay waist to the best laid plans.

cadaliac

MUP isn’t going to happen soon. Government in turmoil currently so as previously mentioned, TDs will be looking for your votes soon.
In any case, the nordies would never have agreed to this and it would have fallen flat imo

Mr. teddywinkles

elperello wrote: »

Neither did I.
If they can't recover some of their costs they will lose money.
This will affect customers because it will be reflected in pricing.
Also likely to lead to less choice in that they won't take a chance in stocking product that will go down to zero value.

Which I think proves one thing. Consumption is down because it happens a lot.

Geuze

Ted Plain wrote: »

€2 for a Franziskaner is a bit lavish seeing as how it only costs about 70c in Germany.

Here's one on offer at the moment in Kaufland, which is Lidl's other supermarket chain:

https://www.kaufland.de/angebote/aktuelle-woche/angebotsdetailseite.so_id=2377901.html

Oettinger. This is something of a cult beer, I guess somewhat like Dutch Gold here. Anyway, on special at 24c a bottle. Regardless, of how downmarket the brand is this is 500ml of German beer, 4.7% for the Pils, 5.4% for the Export, or even 0% for the same price. The normal, full price is 32c a bottle.

Then you have Rabeberger:

https://www.kaufland.de/angebote/aktuelle-woche/angebotsdetailseite.so_id=2320729.html

Arguably one of the most prestigious beer brands in Germany, and to be had today for 50c a bottle. The normal price is 69c a bottle.

Our crooks must really think we're still in the 1960s with nothing but Telly Eireann to instruct us on how things are.

Beer at 24c per half-litre in Germany.

• Low unemployment
• low youth unemployment
• huge exports
• life expectancy at birth, 2015 = 80.7, close to ours

I don't see how the very cheap beer in Germany is causing social problems?

I have lived there for 9 weeks, and visited >10 times.

I didn't see drunken people, brawls, people falling about the streets.

I don't hear about health problems linked to alcohol in Germany, although there could be.

I don't think price is the problem.

If price was the issue, Germany would have many more problems.

Leroy42

Price isn't the problem, culture is.

But culture is very difficult to change, much easier to force it by way of price.

it is particularly difficult to change culture when you are being lobbied to make changes based on maintaining the current culture.

KrustyUCC

Geuze wrote: »

Beer at 24c per half-litre in Germany.

• Low unemployment
• low youth unemployment
• huge exports
• life expectancy at birth, 2015 = 80.7, close to ours

I don't see how the very cheap beer in Germany is causing social problems?

I have lived there for 9 weeks, and visited >10 times.

I didn't see drunken people, brawls, people falling about the streets.

I don't hear about health problems linked to alcohol in Germany, although there could be.

I don't think price is the problem.

If price was the issue, Germany would have many more problems.

Yeah the cheap price alcohol arguement here is a load of ****

We do not have cheap alcohol prices

Taking that German beer at 24c, it would need to be €1.85 minimum here under MUP

670% dearer

Is that same product 670% worse off for an Irish drinker than a German?

Of course not

What is happening is that to support the pubs, they are using the health excuse to jack up prices for everyone

Even those who do not abuse alcohol will be affected by this

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

But culture is very difficult to change, much easier to force it by way of price.

Say they up the price 100% - binge drinkers will just binge less often, they won't turn into Germans who have a bottle of beer at lunch and then go back to work.

hatrickpatrick

Leroy42 wrote: »

Price isn't the problem, culture is.

But culture is very difficult to change, much easier to force it by way of price.

it is particularly difficult to change culture when you are being lobbied to make changes based on maintaining the current culture.

This is the crux of the issue. I do not believe that government has any place forcing or policing culture of individual citizens or groups of citizens, unless those citizens are breaking the law. That is the very definition of a nanny state, IMO.

One_Of_Shanks

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is the crux of the issue. I do not believe that government has any place forcing or policing culture of individual citizens or groups of citizens, unless those citizens are breaking the law. That is the very definition of a nanny state, IMO.

Yep, it's the Nanny State factor that has me so angry about this too.

Firstly, Ireland already has one of the higher alcohol pricing in Europe.
So if there is a correlation between cheap alcohol and problem drinking then why are there numerous other EU countries selling alcohol at half the price we already pay here who aren't perceived as having some sort of alcohol abuse issue?

Secondly, if I worked my wee sacks off all week and like to have a few beers at home on a Friday without causing any harm to anyone, who are Leo and co to decide that I should pay twice as much in future just because a few others are deemed to drink too much?

Thirdly, this all came about because FG have it in their manifesto that they will act to help the pubs.
Again, why should I pay more than I already do for a product just because they want to pander to publicans?

Fourthly, it's insulting that FG are publicly pushing this through under the guise of health.
We're not stupid. We know it has nothing to do with health. It was in black and white that its about pubs so why try to make us out to be idiots?

Fifth, this will have a huge knock on effect for families who actually have a problem drinker in the household.
If Joe Bloggs is an alcoholic and he spends 50% of his wages on booze then what do you think happens when you inflate the price of alcohol?
Does he (A) cut back on his drinking suddenly? Or (B) He's an alcoholic so he continues to drink, only now theres even less of his wage packet left for his family?

But hey, lets forget all that and plough ahead to help the pubs.

End result will be a massive increase in home brewing and people going up north.
Pubs won't benefit at all.

For me personally, we have two toddlers and an insane wee dog and we live in the sticks. Not a hope of us getting to a pub even if they were giving pints away.
All it does is punish me for enjoying a few beers at home after a week of work and paying my taxes.

Only winners will be Nanny Leo and co for ticking a box on their misguided manifesto.

Checkmate19

that last post is spot on. get onto tds as this is all been driven by fg and heir pub mates. health bill my arse.

flutered

sitting in a supermarket car park earlier, a publican known to me arrives out with 10 bottles of spirits and four boxes of lager, will he declare all that to the tax man, btw this guy purchases there each saturday morning

cadaliac

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

Yep, it's the Nanny State factor that has me so angry about this too.

.......
Fifth, this will have a huge knock on effect for families who actually have a problem drinker in the household.
If Joe Bloggs is an alcoholic and he spends 50% of his wages on booze then what do you think happens when you inflate the price of alcohol?
Does he (A) cut back on his drinking suddenly? Or (B) He's an alcoholic so he continues to drink, only now theres even less of his wage packet left for his family?

........
.......

Only winners will be Nanny Leo and co for ticking a box on their misguided manifesto.

This bit in bold is what really going to happen in certain households and its a very real issue that nobody is concerned with (in the government). Its an utter disgrace that they are using health as an excuse for this shambles of a bill.
Really, a disgrace. :mad:

goose2005

cadaliac wrote: »

This bit in bold is what really going to happen in certain households and its a very real issue that nobody is concerned with (in the government). Its an utter disgrace that they are using health as an excuse for this shambles of a bill.
Really, a disgrace. :mad:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Irkutsk_mass_methanol_poisoning

Watch this space..,

McMurphy

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

Yep, it's the Nanny State factor that has me so angry about this too.

Firstly, Ireland already has one of the higher alcohol pricing in Europe.
So if there is a correlation between cheap alcohol and problem drinking then why are there numerous other EU countries selling alcohol at half the price we already pay here who aren't perceived as having some sort of alcohol abuse issue?

Secondly, if I worked my wee sacks off all week and like to have a few beers at home on a Friday without causing any harm to anyone, who are Leo and co to decide that I should pay twice as much in future just because a few others are deemed to drink too much?

Thirdly, this all came about because FG have it in their manifesto that they will act to help the pubs.
Again, why should I pay more than I already do for a product just because they want to pander to publicans?

Fourthly, it's insulting that FG are publicly pushing this through under the guise of health.
We're not stupid. We know it has nothing to do with health. It was in black and white that its about pubs so why try to make us out to be idiots?

Fifth, this will have a huge knock on effect for families who actually have a problem drinker in the household.
If Joe Bloggs is an alcoholic and he spends 50% of his wages on booze then what do you think happens when you inflate the price of alcohol?
Does he (A) cut back on his drinking suddenly? Or (B) He's an alcoholic so he continues to drink, only now theres even less of his wage packet left for his family?

But hey, lets forget all that and plough ahead to help the pubs.

End result will be a massive increase in home brewing and people going up north.
Pubs won't benefit at all.

For me personally, we have two toddlers and an insane wee dog and we live in the sticks. Not a hope of us getting to a pub even if they were giving pints away.
All it does is punish me for enjoying a few beers at home after a week of work and paying my taxes.

Only winners will be Nanny Leo and co for ticking a box on their misguided manifesto.

Print, and laminate this for any canvassers that might call before Christmas.





I'd like any from FG to explain to me where their health concerns where in 2011.