Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

hatrickpatrick

Amendment number 28, which would have banned the use of vouchers, loyalty cards etc to discount alcohol, has been withdrawn on the grounds that the minister of the day has the discretion to ban promotions on a case by case basis, so the loophole is very much alive. The bill now goes to the Dàil, so lets hope it takes them a bajillion years to get their act together and pass it, as usual

Reputable Rog

I think the collective might of the wine and beer exporting nations within the EU will further scupper this bill.
They're already seriously pissed off over the labelling requirements.

Ted Plain

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Amendment number 28, which would have banned the use of vouchers, loyalty cards etc to discount alcohol, has been withdrawn on the grounds that the minister of the day has the discretion to ban promotions on a case by case basis, so the loophole is very much alive. The bill now goes to the Dàil, so lets hope it takes them a bajillion years to get their act together and pass it, as usual

In the same way that our government cynically created VRT for vehicles when the EU ruled against them for taxing imported cars, hopefully we can repay them in kind with such loopholes!

I think there was a recent decision/ruling/judgement on VRT, too. Maybe we can all get refunds for them stealing our money?

One_Of_Shanks

Shelflife wrote: »

Well if you decide to lie down then you cant complain if they walk over you.

Changes were made to the bill to the structural separation section, because people got off their arses and complained.

Exactly.

God the new Irish thing seems to be taking to the internet to moan about the old cliched Irish thing where everyone moaned without acting.

How sad is that?

Instead of doing nothing and complaining about others doing nothing, try doing something.
Otherwise you're actually part of the very group you're complaining about.

I've written to local politicians, signed some petitions, OK it aint much but if everyone who feels strongly about it did something then you'd find it would actually help.

This crap about "I'm disappointed but other Irish folk won't do anything so I'll do nothing too and then moan about the people doing nothing" stuff is unhelpful and bitterly ironic.

If we really were such a nation of walkovers then we'd have an Irish Water Bill to pay over Christmas.
And before anyone says anything I'm not saying I-Water was right or wrong, merely pointing out that people do have a voice if they act on something in numbers.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Shelflife wrote: »

Well if you decide to lie down then you cant complain if they walk over you.

Changes were made to the bill to the structural separation section, because people got off their arses and complained.

I don't need to lie down. I moved to Germany to get away from this ****. The only getting up I'll be doing right now is to wander on down to the supermarket and get a decent half litre of whatever takes my fancy, if I can scrape together the 80 cent.

Leroy42

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

Exactly.

God the new Irish thing seems to be taking to the internet to moan about the old cliched Irish thing where everyone moaned without acting.

How sad is that?

Instead of doing nothing and complaining about others doing nothing, try doing something.
Otherwise you're actually part of the very group you're complaining about.

I've written to local politicians, signed some petitions, OK it aint much but if everyone who feels strongly about it did something then you'd find it would actually help.

This crap about "I'm disappointed but other Irish folk won't do anything so I'll do nothing too and then moan about the people doing nothing" stuff is unhelpful and bitterly ironic.

If we really were such a nation of walkovers then we'd have an Irish Water Bill to pay over Christmas.
And before anyone says anything I'm not saying I-Water was right or wrong, merely pointing out that people do have a voice if they act on something in numbers.

Great, but will you actually take the real action and refuse to buy the new priced product?

Because that is the ultimate power that you, as a consumer, have.

Yes, write your strongly worded e-mails, but what other person as you going to vote for given all the parties are in agreement on this? Are you really going to vote for the local "anti-legislation" candidate? Great if you are but most people wont and so you'll be wasting a vote.

A couple of weeks with people boycotting both the pubs and offys will get a better message through than any letter writing campaign.

But you and I know that is not going to happen. And whats more, the politicians know that too.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

Exactly.

God the new Irish thing seems to be taking to the internet to moan about the old cliched Irish thing where everyone moaned without acting.

How sad is that?

Instead of doing nothing and complaining about others doing nothing, try doing something.
Otherwise you're actually part of the very group you're complaining about.

I've written to local politicians, signed some petitions, OK it aint much but if everyone who feels strongly about it did something then you'd find it would actually help.

This crap about "I'm disappointed but other Irish folk won't do anything so I'll do nothing too and then moan about the people doing nothing" stuff is unhelpful and bitterly ironic.

If we really were such a nation of walkovers then we'd have an Irish Water Bill to pay over Christmas.
And before anyone says anything I'm not saying I-Water was right or wrong, merely pointing out that people do have a voice if they act on something in numbers.

Well, the old Irish thing was wandering down to the pub to moan about the old cliched Irish thing where everyone moaned without acting, so this is a step (albeit a small one) in the right direction.

One_Of_Shanks

Leroy42 wrote: »

Great, but will you actually take the real action and refuse to buy the new priced product?

Because that is the ultimate power that you, as a consumer, have.

Yes, write your strongly worded e-mails, but what other person as you going to vote for given all the parties are in agreement on this? Are you really going to vote for the local "anti-legislation" candidate? Great if you are but most people wont and so you'll be wasting a vote.

A couple of weeks with people boycotting both the pubs and offys will get a better message through than any letter writing campaign.

But you and I know that is not going to happen. And whats more, the politicians know that too.

I have been to a pub maybe 3 times in the last 3 years so yeah.

As for the offy, I would go up North and stock up happily. But if its true that they'll bring it in there to coincide with here then yeah absolutely I'd boycott it entirely rather than pay through the nose.
No problem.

Hopefully others will too.

One_Of_Shanks

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Well, the old Irish thing was wandering down to the pub to moan about the old cliched Irish thing where everyone moaned without acting, so this is a step (albeit a small one) in the right direction.

The problem was people complaining about things and not acting to fix them.

Be it over a cup of tea or wherever. Didn't have to be in the pub.
If you go back far enough then yeah it was men down the pub but nowadays its more likely to be the internet.

The point is that complaining about people complaining without acting is the same as not acting.

QED if this ends up going ahead and you did nothing to prevent it other than remarking on the internet that Irish people dont tend to fight things like this, then you're part of the group you're complaining about, regardless of whether you said it in a pub, kitchen or the web.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

The problem was people complaining about things and not acting to fix them.

Be it over a cup of tea or wherever. Didn't have to be in the pub.
If you go back far enough then yeah it was men down the pub but nowadays its more likely to be the internet.

The point is that complaining about people complaining without acting is the same as not acting.

QED if this ends up going ahead and you did nothing to prevent it other than remarking on the internet that Irish people dont tend to fight things like this, then you're part of the group you're complaining about, regardless of whether you said it in a pub, kitchen or the web.

My point is: NOT doing it in the pub, on this occasion, IS actually making a stand.

TheChizler

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

My point is: NOT doing it in the pub, on this occasion, IS actually making a stand.

The people pushing it for health reasons will be delighted!

weldoninhio

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

My point is: NOT doing it in the pub, on this occasion, IS actually making a stand.

The best thing to do is brew your own, or travel to NI/France to stock up on it. Drink as much as you want, and make sure that the Govt get nothing in taxes and the Vintners get nothing in profit.

hatrickpatrick

Just a heads up, this is being provisionally scheduled to be introduced into the Dail the week after next (Week starting Feb 5) - if ye want to lobby your TDs to oppose it, now is the time.

Reputable Rog

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Just a heads up, this is being provisionally scheduled to be introduced into the Dail the week after next (Week starting Feb 5) - if ye want to lobby your TDs to oppose it, now is the time.

The prospect of no government ever in NI means it may never take effect.

hatrickpatrick

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The prospect of no government ever in NI means it may never take effect.

True, but the idea of having this lingering on the statute books for some opportunistic future minister to commence at their discretion is rather upsetting, I'd much prefer the bill never makes it on to the president's desk to begin with

McMurphy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

True, but the idea of having this lingering on the statute books for some opportunistic future minister to commence at their discretion is rather upsetting, I'd much prefer the bill never makes it on to the president's desk to begin with

This.

The fact that it could just be sitting there to be enforced on nothing more than a whim is a worrying one.

hatrickpatrick

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

This.

The fact that it could just be sitting there to be enforced on nothing more than a whim is a worrying one.

"Now lads, section 12 of the alcohol bill hasn't yet been commenced... Are ye sure you want to post any more memes about me on Reddit? Just saying, like *evil grin*"

Yeah...... No thanks

s7ryf3925pivug

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Better to get rid of volume discounts.

Me: I think I'll have a beer with my dinner. Oh four for a tenner. I think I'll have four beers with my dinner.

elperello

Better to keep volume discounts.

Me: I think I'll have a beer with my dinner. Oh four for a tenner. I think I'll have a beer with my dinner and have three more to enjoy when I feel like it.

BuilderPlumber

Just saw a bit of that dreadful Operation Transformation. Yet another attempt to scaremonger people and demonise alcohol. The sad fact is these so-called experts haven't a clue about what causes diseases and how to cure them. They are just relying on correlation and spouting an agenda to scaremonger people into changing. They are the atheist equivalent of the Taliban or ISIS. If alcohol was as dangerous as these would lead one to believe, how come people live long and healthy lives despite drinking all their life and how come people who never drank die young often too?

BuilderPlumber

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Just saw a bit of that dreadful Operation Transformation. Yet another attempt to scaremonger people and demonise alcohol. The sad fact is these so-called experts haven't a clue about what causes diseases and how to cure them. They are just relying on correlation and spouting an agenda to scaremonger people into changing. They are the atheist equivalent of the Taliban or ISIS. If alcohol was as dangerous as these would lead one to believe, how come people live long and healthy lives despite drinking all their life and how come people who never drank die young often too?

Plus these self appointed experts drink a lot themselves and also rarely mention the real causes of health problems: the horrible modern working and family lifestyles where people work long hours, have to commute for hours to get into horrible jobs and then all they have are bills and mortgages waiting to eat up their money. That is what causes premature diseases but admitting that would go against the vested interests of the banking sector and multinationals and they would no longer have their slaves.

Fr Tod Umptious

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Just saw a bit of that dreadful Operation Transformation. Yet another attempt to scaremonger people and demonise alcohol. The sad fact is these so-called experts haven't a clue about what causes diseases and how to cure them. They are just relying on correlation and spouting an agenda to scaremonger people into changing. They are the atheist equivalent of the Taliban or ISIS. If alcohol was as dangerous as these would lead one to believe, how come people live long and healthy lives despite drinking all their life and how come people who never drank die young often too?

Genetics

Leroy42

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Just saw a bit of that dreadful Operation Transformation. Yet another attempt to scaremonger people and demonise alcohol. The sad fact is these so-called experts haven't a clue about what causes diseases and how to cure them. They are just relying on correlation and spouting an agenda to scaremonger people into changing.

There are studies that show the excessive alcohol has health implications. Liver disease being just the start. There are some recent, although not backup with to the same extent as they are only beginning the studies, into the cancerous effects of alcohol.

So on the one hand we have scientific studies to back up the health claims, on what do you form your basis?

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

They are the atheist equivalent of the Taliban or ISIS.

So you think some people giving advice on a TV program designed to help people get more healthy is an equivalent of a cult based on death and destruction? Really? And you have the cheek to complain that this people are overdoing it!

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

If alcohol was as dangerous as these would lead one to believe, how come people live long and healthy lives despite drinking all their life and how come people who never drank die young often too?

The said the exact same thing about cigs.

Leroy42

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Plus these self appointed experts drink a lot themselves and also rarely mention the real causes of health problems: the horrible modern working and family lifestyles where people work long hours, have to commute for hours to get into horrible jobs and then all they have are bills and mortgages waiting to eat up their money. That is what causes premature diseases but admitting that would go against the vested interests of the banking sector and multinationals and they would no longer have their slaves.

You think that alcohol plays no part at all in that equation.

We are also living longer more productive lives than ever before despite all that you claim.

BuilderPlumber

Leroy42 wrote: »

There are studies that show the excessive alcohol has health implications. Liver disease being just the start. There are some recent, although not backup with to the same extent as they are only beginning the studies, into the cancerous effects of alcohol.

So on the one hand we have scientific studies to back up the health claims, on what do you form your basis?


So you think some people giving advice on a TV program designed to help people get more healthy is an equivalent of a cult based on death and destruction? Really? And you have the cheek to complain that this people are overdoing it!

The said the exact same thing about cigs.

No one is denying that excessive alcohol intake is not healthy. It is this 3 standard drinks is binge drinking madness and all this that is over the top. There are plenty people out there who want to demonise alcohol.

We cannot believe everything someone says and we need to be aware agendas do exist. Yes, copious amounts of alcohol consumption and drinking oneself into a stupor often is not healthy and one knows that. But having a few drinks to unwind at the weekend may be the one thing that keeps stressed people healthy and I think people deserve it.

Programmes like OT are not made to be helpful. Like its entrepreneur, music, dancing and house makeover cousins, OT is just crass reality TV and nothing more. Of course the people who are involved in the media do drink a lot because they have the money to do so and they also have the hours that suit. Case in point was OT's original presenter, Gerry Ryan. He is an example of an unhealthy drinker and he presented this. He is not alone and the others are at it as well. They are not teetolallers any of them that is for sure.

Leroy42 wrote: »

You think that alcohol plays no part at all in that equation.

We are also living longer more productive lives than ever before despite all that you claim.

Never said that. Alcohol abuse is what it is. But alcohol abuse is not drinking moderately at the weekend.

People are living longer and more productive lives when they do what suits them best. Do not fall for all this debt culture and one will be ok. As well as this, there are people who could owe 100s of 1000s and they don't care! But being able to enjoy a drink at the weekend is a big part of what keeps people sane and healthy after a week of stress.

Leroy42

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

No one is denying that excessive alcohol intake is healthy. It is this 3 standard drinks is binge drinking madness and all this that is over the top. There are plenty people out there who want to demonise alcohol.

We cannot believe everything someone says and we need to be aware agendas do exist. Yes, copious amounts of alcohol consumption and drinking oneself into a stupor often is not healthy and one knows that. But having a few drinks to unwind at the weekend may be the one thing that keeps stressed people healthy and I think people deserve it.

Programmes like OT are not made to be helpful. Like its entrepreneur, music, dancing and house makeover cousins, OT is just crass reality TV and nothing more. Of course the people who are involved in the media do drink a lot because they have the money to do so and they also have the hours that suit. Case in point was OT's original presenter, Gerry Ryan. He is an example of an unhealthy drinker and he presented this. He is not alone and the others are at it as well. They are not teetolallers any of them that is for sure.



Never said that. Alcohol abuse is what it is. But alcohol abuse is not drinking moderately at the weekend.

People are living longer and more productive lives when they do what suits them best. Do not fall for all this debt culture and one will be ok. As well as this, there are people who could owe 100s of 1000s and they don't care! But being able to enjoy a drink at the weekend is a big part of what keeps people sane and healthy after a week of stress.

So you agree that too much alcohol is bad, but have decided that you know what that level is? Is drinking 3 a day ok, or is it just some days? Are some people more susceptible to issues like disease from alcohol or it the same for everyone.

On the one hand you are claiming that people have stressful lives and need alcohol to get through it, and on the other you claim that the reason people are living longer (and it is all people, not just a select few) is because they get to do what they want. You're answer to harmful stress levels is to place additional harmful products in to the body?

BuilderPlumber

Leroy42 wrote: »

So you agree that too much alcohol is bad, but have decided that you know what that level is? Is drinking 3 a day ok, or is it just some days? Are some people more susceptible to issues like disease from alcohol or it the same for everyone.

On the one hand you are claiming that people have stressful lives and need alcohol to get through it, and on the other you claim that the reason people are living longer (and it is all people, not just a select few) is because they get to do what they want. You're answer to harmful stress levels is to place additional harmful products in to the body?

Again, misquotation. There is no one size fits all. People drink in different ways and yes it affects people differently. Stress the same. What one finds stressful may not be stressful to another. No 2 people are the same.

Anyway, I do not like being told what to do or what is good or bad for me be it by the church, a government or the media and having them pass judgement on one. I know what is right or wrong and know how to control myself. The media are obsessed with telling us what foods are bad for us and if we are to believe it all, we'd eat nothing. They may not be beheading and amputating people but their attitudes are the civilised world's equivalent of Taliban rules outlawing certain foods. I'm sure the health brigade and the Taliban would see eye to eye with regard to demonising alcohol and processed pork. I am not a fan of processed meats but not because of what the media say about salt. I just don't like it.

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

It would be a social revolution in Ireland if this imbecilic, utterly immature glorification of alcohol and the plethora of euphemisms - "Ah he likes a drink", 'He's under the weather', 'He had a few too many' etc - to describe problem drinking were to be consigned to the dustbin of Irish history. The 'drunken Irish' label was never a compliment, although it never fails to astonish how many Irish think getting drunk is something to be proud of.

I don't care what the Irish government does - banning alcohol advertising would be a great start, though - as long as this incessant romanticisation of alcohol in Irish society is ended. It's as if the Irish people have nothing of substance to their culture, no achievements of their own, and so this horseshíte "pub culture" has become the centre of Irish life. I'm sick of all the drunks, be they driving on roads at night, clogging up A&E, fighting on our streets, or creating an enormous array of abuses in homes that drip into schools across Ireland, and the excuses made for them. Spending Paddy's Day walking around Dublin is really high up on the list of winners of the most disgusting spectacle of the year in Ireland.

Leroy42

Right, so basically you don't care what they say because you want to make up your own mind.

Except that in making up your mind you ignore any evidence that doesn't agree with your position.

You have every right, and are correct in so doing, to question everything. But that is not what you are doing. You are dismissing it based on a unsubstantiated claim that they all have an agenda.

Have you asked yourself who would gain most? The medical profession and government or the drinks industry. In whose interests is it to get people to dismiss the medical evidence?

Could it be that the drinks companies would prefer us to continue to consume their products, or do you think the GPs, scientists and government have come together in some secret pack to stop people from having fun? And if so, why? Wouldn't a happier (as you claim they are) population be in their favour? And even if you think the government get tax etc, whats in it for gps?

BuilderPlumber

Leroy42 wrote: »

Right, so basically you don't care what they say because you want to make up your own mind.

Except that in making up your mind you ignore any evidence that doesn't agree with your position.

You have every right, and are correct in so doing, to question everything. But that is not what you are doing. You are dismissing it based on a unsubstantiated claim that they all have an agenda.

Have you asked yourself who would gain most? The medical profession and government or the drinks industry. In whose interests is it to get people to dismiss the medical evidence?

Could it be that the drinks companies would prefer us to continue to consume their products, or do you think the GPs, scientists and government have come together in some secret pack to stop people from having fun? And if so, why? Wouldn't a happier (as you claim they are) population be in their favour? And even if you think the government get tax etc, whats in it for gps?

There are a lot of agendas and I would not equate OT and articles about health in newspapers with the medical profession!! The media along with the drinks industry and the vintners all have an agenda and the government has an agenda to make tax revenue.

To answer what's in it for GPs? Nothing. But what's in it for the media 'health experts'? Debate material, material for programmes, fodder for columns, etc. The black and white views presented to us in the media are not reflective of real medical science which is not as cut and dried as the media want us to believe. The media are a cynical and divisive force designed to get people debating rather than to solve problems and get at the truth. OT is You're a star or dragon's den for overweight people and that's it.