Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

kunst nugget

VinLieger wrote: »

Id have no problem with most of that tbh, sports will take a hit but will ultimately find funding elsewhere.


The curtain idea which was originally in this bill and thankfully has been left by the wayside was absolute idiocy though.

It's okay, we can replace the alcohol ads with gambling ads.

KrustyUCC

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But alcohol can do damage all over the place, not only the health of the drinker but also abused spouses and kids, assaults on the streets, road deaths etc etc

Why should people who are not problem drinker and don't abuse spouses and kids, assault on the streets, contribute to road deaths etc have to pay even more than other Europeans just for people who will just keep drinking?
We already have some of the most expensive alcohol in Europe

Take a can of Perlenbacher in Lidl

On sale in Spain for €0.35. On sale here €1.05

Already 200% dearer than in Spain

Under this bill it will increase to €1.89 which is 440% dearer for the exact same can

No doctor could claim that the same can is over 5 times more damaging to the health of an Irish person than a spanish person or that the same can has 5 times the societal harm in Ireland than in Portugal yet every person here who buys that can is punished again

Leroy42

Greyfox wrote: »

In that case why punish those that can handle there drink. Increasing the minimum cost of alcohol is attacking something that's a big part of our culture and something thats a big part of whats great about Ireland. The government needs to find a way to deal with over consumption without punishing those who don't regularly overdo it.

Totally agree. But we in Ireland, and I am of course using the generalisation, have shown a complete lack of ability to control it ourselves. Despite the ever increasing price of the product, as you mention culture seems to be at the heart of it.

At the heart of this, is IMO, the fact the entire industry has been non existent in dealing with the real problems. Drink Driving, fights, violence, domestic abuse, A&E at the weekends, the sheer number of people who has lost their lives (both in terms of mortality but also in terms of practical living) through alcohol.

Yes, there are vast amounts of people for whom alcohol is a a lovely enjoyable product that enhances their nights out, their watching of games, the crack etc etc. But there is also the massive problems that it creates.

Is this the way to solve it? I don't think so.

However, a poster yesterday mentioned that they had two cans and a whiskey and what would raising the price do to curb that. Well nothing if you have the money, but when faced with €20 for a bottle of whiskey that you might only use every few weeks I would suspect that many people who buy something else. Instead of two cans buy one.

Over time, peoples use of alcohol will reduce. The ironic thing is that will only hasten the demise of the pub as younger people, less likely to buy the product in the offy, will have less desire to go to the pub.

People continually point out the price difference with the continent, but isn't it likely that if the prices were the same that people would be drinking more? So claim that the higher prices have no effect seems wrong to me.

odyssey06

Leroy42 wrote: »

People continually point out the price difference with the continent, but isn't it likely that if the prices were the same that people would be drinking more? So claim that the higher prices have no effect seems wrong to me.

We have higher prices than the continent, yet you seem to think we drink more than the continent. Your solution is to increase prices?
Makes no logical sense as an argument. If higher prices was the solution, we'd already be drinking far less than the continent.

Fr Tod Umptious

odyssey06 wrote: »

We have higher prices than the continent, yet you seem to think we drink more than the continent. Your solution is to increase prices?
Makes no logical sense as an argument. If higher prices was the solution, we'd already be drinking far less than the continent.

I won't speak for the other poster but I think we drink "differently" than the continent.

There is evident also to show that drink related deaths due to accidents are higher here than on the continent, and deaths due to drink realted liver disease and cancers is higher on the continent.

I'll post links later.

Mr. teddywinkles

Leroy42 wrote: »

I wouldn't call them scumbags, they are looking at the devastation that alcohol has caused throughout the country and trying to formulate ways to reduce the terrible effects it has on individuals, children, family etc.

They are up against formidable interests in the form of the producers and sellers of the produce, as well as the inbuilt favourability to the product of the general population. So to try to get some measures across they have to push very hard, and that of course impacts on the many whilst saving the few.

They would see their fight as akin to the battle against smoking. If we look back at that fight, there are clear similarities between them, in terms of how the industry tried to portray itself as benign and simply trying to help the consumer and the consumer felt hard done by.

Now I agree that the way they are going about it is both disingenuous and wrong, but I can understand where they are coming from. Faced with doing nothing, or getting something, they are taking what they can get. They will fight the vintners at a later stage as at present it is a bridge too far.

It's called counselling to help people overcome their addiction to alcohol. Not penilise everyone else for a small pertage of other peoples problems.
The dumbest load of ****e iv heard of yet. Should we start raising prices in chippers too and what about frozen foods to lower future health problems which will probably going to affect more of the population than alcohol ever will. Gone beyond a joke here. Live n let live and have personal responsibility FFS.

Zubeneschamali

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I believe the impact of alcohol is far more wide ranging than that of smoking.

Eh, no.

Smoking kills half of all smokers.

Alcohol has lots of other bad effects on violence, domestic abuse, poverty, crime, but it is nowhere near as lethal as smoking.

Fr Tod Umptious

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

It's called counselling to help people overcome their addiction to alcohol. Not penilise everyone else for a small pertage of other peoples problems.
The dumbest load of ****e iv heard of yet. Should we start raising prices in chippers too and what about frozen foods to lower future health problems which will probably going to affect more of the population than alcohol ever will. Gone beyond a joke here. Live n let live and have personal responsibility FFS.

Yea eventually there will be taxes of fast foods.

But just like the impact of smoking differs from the impact of alcohol consumption, no one is going home beating their spouse after one two many chicken nuggets.

Leroy42

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Live n let live and have personal responsibility FFS.

Which is all fine except that as a society we all end up paying. Through A&E, costs of dealing with accidents, domestic abuse, court cases, people being injured in bar fights etc etc.

Are you suggesting that anyone who drinks should be excluded from any help from the state such as garda, A&E etc when they are drunk. That is the natural conclusion of what you are suggesting.

We all like a drink, but you are kidding yourself if you think that as a society we don't have an issue. Rather than simply calling my posting of sh1t, why not propose some solutions yourself.

Fr Tod Umptious

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Eh, no.

Smoking kills half of all smokers.

Alcohol has lots of other bad effects on violence, domestic abuse, poverty, crime, but it is nowhere near as lethal as smoking.

I said that.
The impact of alcohol addiction is far more wide ranging than the impact of tobacco addiction.

Leroy42

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Eh, no.

Smoking kills half of all smokers.

Alcohol has lots of other bad effects on violence, domestic abuse, poverty, crime, but it is nowhere near as lethal as smoking.

There are more and more reports coming out all the time.

I think the death toll from alcohol is actually far higher than is reported. Be it directly, ie drink driving, or indirectly ie liver failure.

But what of the people killed by drunk drivers, How are they classified. What about people who get health problems?

There appears to be more an more research being done showing the negative effects on peoples health due to drinking, and not just excessive drinking. There is a proposal that drink products should carry health warning labels.

I think for too long we have ignored the negative effects of this product on the basis that its all great craic.

Leroy42

odyssey06 wrote: »

We have higher prices than the continent, yet you seem to think we drink more than the continent. Your solution is to increase prices?
Makes no logical sense as an argument. If higher prices was the solution, we'd already be drinking far less than the continent.

That is not what I said. I said that people seem to be ignoring the effects that the higher prices have on consumption in Ireland. It seems odd that people would be thinking that the higher prices have had no effect. In all likelyhood, if the prices were the same then our consumption would rise.

odyssey06

Leroy42 wrote: »

That is not what I said. I said that people seem to be ignoring the effects that the higher prices have on consumption in Ireland. It seems odd that people would be thinking that the higher prices have had no effect. In all likelyhood, if the prices were the same then our consumption would rise.

It seems odd you think higher prices would reduce consumption, if we are drinking more than the continent who have cheaper prices.

Fr Tod Umptious

odyssey06 wrote: »

It seems odd you think higher prices would reduce consumption, if we are drinking more than the continent who have cheaper prices.

But who says we are drinking more than the continent ?

Mr. teddywinkles

Leroy42 wrote: »

Which is all fine except that as a society we all end up paying. Through A&E, costs of dealing with accidents, domestic abuse, court cases, people being injured in bar fights etc etc.

Are you suggesting that anyone who drinks should be excluded from any help from the state such as garda, A&E etc when they are drunk. That is the natural conclusion of what you are suggesting.

We all like a drink, but you are kidding yourself if you think that as a society we don't have an issue. Rather than simply calling my posting of sh1t, why not propose some solutions yourself.

You honestly think that alcoholics won't drink or find more than likely a more dangerous alternative if prices are raised. Their not called alcoholics for nothing. So they'll just look at the price a say ah Jaysus I think I'll go t total. It's a thing that needs investment just like mental health not even to solve the problem but to offer the opportunity to help. It's the people themselves that have to do the most work.
Also will always have drunks getting injured. Might as well wish for the sun not to rise tomorrow.
No more issue than the rest of the world. Bet ya in a lot of places if ya don't see drunks falling around its other substances of some kind doing the rounds.
To believe just because I'm Norwegian or Spanish or whatever nationality with seemly great stats for this does not mean their perfect.

Fr Tod Umptious

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

You honestly think that alcoholics won't drink or find more than likely a more dangerous alternative if prices are raised. Their not called alcoholics for nothing. So they'll just look at the price a say ah Jaysus I think I'll go t total. It's a thing that needs investment just like mental health not even to solve the problem but to offer the opportunity to help. It's the people themselves that have to do the most work.
Also will always have drunks getting injured. Might as well wish for the sun not to rise tomorrow.
No more issue than the rest of the world. Bet ya in a lot of places if ya don't see drunks falling around its other substances of some kind doing the rounds.
To believe just because I'm Norwegian or Spanish or whatever nationality with seemly great stats for this does not mean I,m perfect.

But it's not about today's alcoholics

It's about the next generation of drinkers.

Make the entry to alcohol harder through higher prices or reduced visibility and you (hopefully) reduce the levels of problem drinking.

kunst nugget

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But who says we are drinking more than the continent ?

It's on a par with the likes of Germany and Luxembourg, less than France and Portugal... It's not really how much we consume per se, more how we consume it, i.e. we tend to binge drink, along with our Nordic Neighbours and the UK.

Zubeneschamali

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But who says we are drinking more than the continent ?

We aren't. We drink more than Italy or Holland, the same as Germany or Luxembourg, and less than France or Finland. (Or the UK, but they are not the Continent).

Reputable Rog

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I don’t know if you are taking the p*ss or not.
Alcohol causes untold damage in our society. I believe the impact of alcohol is far more wide ranging than that of smoking.

Smoking primarily kills the smoker, and since the workplace smoking ban the impact of smoking on non-smokers has been reduced.

But alcohol can do damage all over the place, not only the health of the drinker but also abused spouses and kids, assaults on the streets, road deaths etc etc

I don’t see any downside of a society with less alcohol.

You sound like someone who benefit from a few beverages every now and again.

To put this in perspective, Brexit will not happen to the extent everyone is talking about and without a government in NI any time in the next few years, the introduction of MUP would be ineffective. The introduction in Scotland has led to supermarkets in border areas of England slashing prices
The EC are also going to put the boot in to Ireland big time over this as well and this will just go away all by itself. Monsieur French Winemaker or Herr German Brewer will not take this lying down nor will Diageo.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's not about today's alcoholics

It's about the next generation of drinkers.

Make the entry to alcohol harder through higher prices or reduced visibility and you (hopefully) reduce the levels of problem drinking.

None of this will make it harder. You want to do that, just enfore the rules about underage drinking and aquiring alcohol for underage kids that are already there, stiffen the penalties, and your sorted. Simple.

There are societies on this planet that prohibit alcohol and they are no or less unlawful or abusive than ours. There are those that tax the hell out of it and their drinking levels are on a par with ours. Anyway argument for this **** is always taken out of context and exaggerated to say, "look - we NEED this law!" when it's blatantly obvious to anyone that we don't.

Firstly, define the problem. Accruately. DO we drink more? Not proven. Are we worse when we're drunk? Not proven. Is alcohol a problem? Not proven. Prove these. THEN we'll talk about whether or not this is a solution.
Secondly, educate. Especially kids.
Thirdly, enforce the laws that already exist for underage drinking, aquiring alcohol for and selling to minors and drunk and disorderly behaviour and you'll find most of the problems will decrease.

ohnonotgmail

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's not about today's alcoholics

It's about the next generation of drinkers.

Make the entry to alcohol harder through higher prices or reduced visibility and you (hopefully) reduce the levels of problem drinking.

Or educate young people about how to drink responsibly. Is that not a better option?

Fr Tod Umptious

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Or educate young people about how to drink responsibly. Is that not a better option?

That too.

Smoking levels in this country were reduced by higher prices, less visibility and better education.

But it took 30 years.

You can do the same with alcohol.

ohnonotgmail

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That too.

Smoking levels in this country were reduced by higher prices, less visibility and better education.

But it took 30 years.

You can do the same with alcohol.

you are completed misguided if you think that MUP will have any recordable effects on consumption. We already have some of the most expensive alcohol in europe.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That too.

Smoking levels in this country were reduced by higher prices, less visibility and better education.

But it took 30 years.

You can do the same with alcohol.

... except that's not what you're arguing. MUP never existed for cigarettes (for some obscure reason. I wonder why not...? Hmmm.....)

Again: if you're in favour of MUP, please define why, and - if you present a specific problem - prove it's a problem and state why you think MUP is the answer. And if you're going to present us as a drinking nation, please list all other western nations that drink less and have MUP laws.

odyssey06

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That too.
Smoking levels in this country were reduced by higher prices, less visibility and better education.
But it took 30 years.
You can do the same with alcohol.

Very little difference in smoking rates between Spain and Ireland but cigarettes are twice the price here.

https://www.independent.ie/business/budget/revealed-the-countries-where-you-can-get-cigarettes-for-less-than-1-35127584.html

Fr Tod Umptious

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you are completed misguided if you think that MUP will have any recordable effects on consumption. We already have some of the most expensive alcohol in europe.

But I'm not arguing for MUP, because it's only on off sales it's a bit of a joke.

I think increased pricing across the board is part of the solution, but only part.

I'd live to see the other parts like advertising being addressed first.

VinLieger

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's not about today's alcoholics

It's about the next generation of drinkers.

Make the entry to alcohol harder through higher prices or reduced visibility and you (hopefully) reduce the levels of problem drinking.

Hiding it away with cigarettes worked, it wont with alcohol, it will make it even more of a special thing in kids eyes causing them to go nuts and binge when they suddenly get access to it.

VinLieger

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But I'm not arguing for MUP, because it's only on off sales it's a bit of a joke.

I think increased pricing across the board is part of the solution, but only part.

Its never worked before, we are told that low cost alcohol is the problem however consumption has dropped year over year since 2005 so obviously thats not true as by your logic it should have increased with below cost selling. All the evidence we have shows that price especially in the case of serious problem drinkers is not a driver of consumption

ohnonotgmail

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But I'm not arguing for MUP, because it's only on off sales it's a bit of a joke.

I think increased pricing across the board is part of the solution, but only part.

I'd live to see the other parts like advertising being addressed first.

we already have some of the highest alcohol prices in europe. Raising alcohol prices wont solve problem drinking.

Deebles McBeebles

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That too.

Smoking levels in this country were reduced by higher prices, less visibility and better education.

But it took 30 years.

You can do the same with alcohol.

Prohibition doesn't work and upping the price every time they feel like it will only drive it underground. All those counterfeit cigarettes you see being taken in by the authorities are only a tiny fraction of what gets through. Alcohol will be the same.