Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Garibaldi?

Over the years I have met some people who were really skilled at making their own wine. This could be a great opportunity for people to begin wine-making or home-brewing classes. There would be a market for their expertise.

Leroy42

Whether this is the best way about trying to reduce consumption, it is clear that alcohol is a product that has serious effects on health.

Alcohol causes one in 20 deaths worldwide, says WHO

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/21/5-of-all-deaths-due-to-alcohol-who-says

The Rape of Lucretia

It is going the way of smoking, and drinking and driving. Really jacking up the price is one aspect of the fight against the still pretty widespread accepability of drinking alcohol.
The money raised, to be put to education about its damaging effect on health and as a source of further funding to the health service fo help pay the bill of tidying up its mess - today, unfairly footed by all, non drinkers included.

odyssey06

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It is going the way of smoking, and drinking and driving. Really jacking up the price is one aspect of the fight against the still pretty widespread accepability of drinking alcohol.
The money raised, to be put to education about its damaging effect on health and as a source of further funding to the health service fo help pay the bill of tidying up its mess - today, unfairly footed by all, non drinkers included.

But this isnt about that. This is about herding people to the pub which is why pub owners support it. The price increase goes to the seller not the state. And there is nothing wrong with responsible drinking.

Garibaldi?

Everything that is suppressed becomes available on the black market. The forthcoming legislation could prove to be very dangerous indeed with people drinking products containing God knows what!:(

Leroy42

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Everything that is suppressed becomes available on the black market. The forthcoming legislation could prove to be very dangerous indeed with people drinking products containing God knows what!:(

So what, we simply do nothing? Throw our hands up and accept we can do nothing?

There is no doubt, the cigarette companies even acknowledge this, that the level of smoking in countries such as Ireland has dropped significantly.

Drinking causes massive problems. Will this solve them? No. Will it make some people reduce their intake? Yes probably. Will it have an effect on the long term acceptance of alcohol? No idea, but I don't think it will drive it up.

hatrickpatrick

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Over the years I have met some people who were really skilled at making their own wine. This could be a great opportunity for people to begin wine-making or home-brewing classes. There would be a market for their expertise.

I've been making my own beer since April using nothing but extract kits and instructions written by the good folks here on Boards' Home Brewing forum, Reddit's /r/homebrewing and Homebrew Talk. And in all honesty, I started doing it out of wanting to be ready to beat the minimum pricing but it's incredibly enjoyable and gives you an epic sense of pride when people like what you make, so I suspect a lot of people who get into it for purely economic reasons might end up finding a new passion in it.

Garibaldi?

Thoroughly agree with the last post. The nicest wines I have ever tasted were made at home by people who loved the whole procedure. They were reliable individuals who might have been making a few quid from the hobby but were not putting anyone at risk. It's the large scale anonymous black marketeers that we need to be wary of.

McMurphy

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It is going the way of smoking, and drinking and driving. Really jacking up the price is one aspect of the fight against the still pretty widespread accepability of drinking alcohol.
The money raised, to be put to education about its damaging effect on health and as a source of further funding to the health service fo help pay the bill of tidying up its mess - today, unfairly footed by all, non drinkers included.

What you talking bout? It's not a tax being levied on the stuff.

"The money raised" will be raised by the manufacturers who produce and distribute it, I don't envisage them using it to start a campaign to reprogramme people from consuming their own product - way to kill their very own market.

Have you been following the thread at all, or have you just waded in on a TRoL fest again?

Capt'n Midnight

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Everything that is suppressed becomes available on the black market. The forthcoming legislation could prove to be very dangerous indeed with people drinking products containing God knows what!:(

Look at Kenya to see how bad that can get.

Closer to home people have been caught making fake vodka from industrial alcohol tanks some using a bottling plant that fits on the back of a truck.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/massive-alcohol-plant-uncovered-26475653.html
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/pictured-inside-45k-fake-vodka-13363377
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ira-moonshine-operation-smashed-by-customs-officers-30302121.html

hatrickpatrick

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Closer to home people have been caught making fake vodka from industrial alcohol tanks some using a bottling plant that fits on the back of a truck.

That honestly sounds like a Father Ted pisstake of Breaking Bad :D:D

VinLieger

Balls, I thought simon harris had some but nope hes now given in to the stupid nimby cancer labels as well. This bill is a fvcking farce.


Frances black is on newstalk masturbating about how shes managed to make everyones lives that little bit less enjoyable

Hopefully the EU will strike down these stupid cancer labels at least

I have no issue with the cancer warnings. Drink away if ya want, doesn't affect the taste or price.

Leroy42

VinLieger wrote: »

Balls, I thought simon harris had some but nope hes now given in to the stupid nimby cancer labels as well. This bill is a fvcking farce.


Frances black is on newstalk masturbating about how shes managed to make everyones lives that little bit less enjoyable

Hopefully the EU will strike down these stupid cancer labels at least

If there is a cancer risk they why do yo think it wrong to highlight that?

Are you against all warning signs?

Hotblack Desiato

Deleted User wrote: »

I have no issue with the cancer warnings. Drink away if ya want, doesn't affect the taste or price.

There's this thing called the EU Single Market. We're not supposed to be putting up barriers to producers in other countries (or importers based here) and taking actions which restrict competition here.

Alchohol labelling should be standardised across the EU.

This will hit Irish alcohol exporters badly as their product will be the only ones with huge, unjustified scary warnings on the label.

Meanwhile importers of craft / specialised products here are going to either give up on less popular products, or apply stickers by hand, prices go up (even in products way above the MUP price) and competition goes down.

Garibaldi?

It's going to be very difficult for people to enjoy a social drink given this cancer label staring them in the face. Practically everything we do carries some risk. This warning label cannot be compared to the one on cigarette packets. Moderate drinking is beneficial to people's health.

Turquoise Hexagon Sun

This was all Leo Varadkar's idea before he became Taoiseach, right? I remember him spouting some bull**** about this 5 years ago. He's an awful numpty.

It's such a putrid and cynical attempt to just make money off the common, hard-working individual disguised as "for our own good." This is the epitome of authoritarianism. You don't know what's good for you, we do. It's not getting to the root of the issue. Of course, it wouldn't be a very lucrative pursuit to tackle Ireland's binge-drinking issue, realistically. They know that. So they'll just tax us and they'll tax us with extreme prejudice after the Irish Water fiasco.

If there is a cancer risk they why do yo think it wrong to highlight that?

Are you against all warning signs?

We don't need warning signs on everything. You don't see warning signs on every individual knife or fork you use, do you. It's taken as common sense. We can have a warning on the label, alongside the ingredients but people have a responsibility and they are adult enough to look after themselves. The government doesn't have to be our daddy and babysitter holding our hands on everything we do.

VinLieger

Leroy42 wrote: »

If there is a cancer risk they why do yo think it wrong to highlight that?

Are you against all warning signs?

Deleted User wrote: »

I have no issue with the cancer warnings. Drink away if ya want, doesn't affect the taste or price.

It will affect the price as for many smaller breweries(specifically irish ones) having to create multiple labels for domestic and foreign markets will seriously impact their bottom line.

Legally alcohol is a food not a drug so if we are putting labels on it we logically should be putting labels on every single piece of food that has a link to cancer.

For instance alcohol is rated as a group 1 carcinogen, other such group 1 carcinogens in food are, bacon red meat and other processed meat, ALL barbecued food, hot beverages above 65 degrees.

Do you agree we should be putting cancer labels on all of these foods now too?

Alcohol much like all of the above consumed in moderation has actually proven to be beneficial in the long term.

And much like all of the above alcohol only has a link to cancer when it is consumed in excessive amounts, there is NO evidence that alcohol consumed in moderation causes cancer.

Finally as someone else already said we cannot legally put a barrier to trade in place such as this due to EU regulations

Fr Tod Umptious

This country really has a bad relationship with alcohol when you have people complaining about a warning label on a product.

Can someone please tell me how it's going to affect your enjoyment of said product?

Leroy42

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

This country really has a bad relationship with alcohol when you have people complaining about a warning label on a product.

Can someone please tell me how it's going to affect your enjoyment of said product?

Exactly. We get the classic whataboutery response about everything is bad for you, why not do something about bacon etc.

When can providing more information ever be deemed to be a bad thing?

And why are you worried about the smaller brewers? Come on, they have been taking advantage of the consumer for years. All this nonsense about craft beers etc, just a marketing exercise to get you to pay more.

There are plenty of examples, on this thread and others, of people brewing their own beer for next to nothing. Yet somehow the craft brewers charge a premium.

So save me the cried of poor mouth for local brewers.

VinLieger

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

This country really has a bad relationship with alcohol when you have people complaining about a warning label on a product.

Can someone please tell me how it's going to affect your enjoyment of said product?

Its the inconsistency in the constant attacks on alcohol while ignoring other products that are just as harmful statistically re-cancer but don't fit into the collective group think of "any alcohol = bad"

VinLieger

Leroy42 wrote: »

Exactly. We get the classic whataboutery response about everything is bad for you, why not do something about bacon etc.

When can providing more information ever be deemed to be a bad thing?

When the information objectively is completely incorrect it most definitely is a bad thing. Alcohol by itself does not cause cancer unlike cigarettes which are being used as an example of why we should be doing this, excessive consumption of it MAY be a cause of cancer, this important nuance is not mentioned anywhere in the legislation or by any of the proponents for this labeling.

weldoninhio

Turquoise Hexagon Sun wrote: »

This was all Leo Varadkar's idea before he became Taoiseach, right? I remember him spouting some bull**** about this 5 years ago. He's an awful numpty.

It's such a putrid and cynical attempt to just make money off the common, hard-working individual disguised as "for our own good." This is the epitome of authoritarianism. You don't know what's good for you, we do. It's not getting to the root of the issue. Of course, it wouldn't be a very lucrative pursuit to tackle Ireland's binge-drinking issue, realistically. They know that. So they'll just tax us and they'll tax us with extreme prejudice after the Irish Water fiasco.



We don't need warning signs on everything. You don't see warning signs on every individual knife or fork you use, do you. It's taken as common sense. We can have a warning on the label, alongside the ingredients but people have a responsibility and they are adult enough to look after themselves. The government doesn't have to be our daddy and babysitter holding our hands on everything we do.

I wonder will pubs have to provide glasses with warnings printed on them, or prominent warning posters in pubs?? Or is it only canned/bottled supermarket bought alcohol that causes cancer??

Leroy42

VinLieger wrote: »

Its the inconsistency in the constant attacks on alcohol while ignoring other products that are just as harmful statistically re-cancer but don't fit into the collective group think of "any alcohol = bad"

But no one is claiming that any alcohol is bad. What they are saying is that the public should be giving the real information, not just the information provided by the PR of the breweries. So Diageo etc get to out out the lifestyle, the fun, the social gatherings line, and it is left to the state to try to balance that with some of the not some fun features of the product.

It is a tricky one because as you say a small amount of the product is probably fine (and certainly IMO no worse than lots of other stuff we are forced to consume and I include air pollution in that) but clearly larger amounts or continual use causes problems.

It is tricky then on how to deal with that. We don't want to go down the road of buying limits so the only alternative is to put it on each product.

Leroy42

VinLieger wrote: »

When the information objectively is completely incorrect it most definitely is a bad thing. Alcohol by itself does not cause cancer unlike cigarettes which are being used as an example of why we should be doing this, excessive consumption of it MAY be a cause of cancer, this important nuance is not mentioned anywhere in the legislation or by any of the proponents for this labeling.

So what is the level over which cancer because a risk factor?

I have no idea. I' saying that in case you think I am trying to trick you into an answer, I genuinely do not know what the safe level is.

OldRio

weldoninhio wrote: »

I wonder will pubs have to provide glasses with warnings printed on them, or prominent warning posters in pubs?? Or is it only canned/bottled supermarket bought alcohol that causes cancer??

Good point. Pub alcohol, Good.
Supermarket alcohol, Bad

I wonder why that is?
Cynical? You bet.

Liamo08

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

This country really has a bad relationship with alcohol when you have people complaining about a warning label on a product.

Can someone please tell me how it's going to affect your enjoyment of said product?

If this goes ahead literally every imported alcohol product will have to be re-labeled with the new warnings attached. If you take wine as an example this will mean that every bottle on the shelves will need to be re-labeled after it enters the country, this will at the minimum come at an additional cost to the consumer and will most likely lead to importers and distributes potentially limiting the variety of products that they import.



I'm pretty sure the extra cost and potential reduced choice will have an impact on peoples enjoyment!

Leroy42

Liamo08 wrote: »

If this goes ahead literally every imported alcohol product will have to be re-labeled with the new warnings attached. If you take wine as an example this will mean that every bottle on the shelves will need to be re-labeled after it enters the country, this will at the minimum come at an additional cost to the consumer and will most likely lead to importers and distributes potentially limiting the variety of products that they import.



I'm pretty sure the extra cost and potential reduced choice will have an impact on peoples enjoyment!

MAP will mean that it really won't make any real difference.

10000maniacs

Leroy42 wrote: »

Whether this is the best way about trying to reduce consumption, it is clear that alcohol is a product that has serious effects on health.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/21/5-of-all-deaths-due-to-alcohol-who-says

What has that got to do with non alcoholics? Why is everybody being hit?
Beer and wine are 4 times cheaper in Spain, so why the alcohol consumption rate less in Spain?
This minimum pricing farce has nothing to do with peoples health. Its an attempt by Fine Gael (and FF too) to bail out their vintner buddies.

VinLieger

Leroy42 wrote: »

But no one is claiming that any alcohol is bad. What they are saying is that the public should be giving the real information, not just the information provided by the PR of the breweries. So Diageo etc get to out out the lifestyle, the fun, the social gatherings line, and it is left to the state to try to balance that with some of the not some fun features of the product.

It is a tricky one because as you say a small amount of the product is probably fine (and certainly IMO no worse than lots of other stuff we are forced to consume and I include air pollution in that) but clearly larger amounts or continual use causes problems.

It is tricky then on how to deal with that. We don't want to go down the road of buying limits so the only alternative is to put it on each product.

Jesus when did everyone need to be babied so much, if people don't have the cop on to understand anything in excess is probably bad for you then they deserve whatever the results are.



Are we going to put warnings on ice cream now that too much might make you fat?

Depending on the person to much excercise can also be bad for you, wheres the warnings plastered all over the gym, or on all exercise gear and equipment?

Watching TV or sitting in front of a computer all day everyday isnt great for your health either, wheres the warnings on chairs, couches or TV's?


Seriously what happened to personal responsibility?