Should Private Schools be Closed?

steddyeddy

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Maybe their parents have trouble getting decent jobs because they didn't have access to decent education?
Bit of a catch-22 there, isn't it?

A catch 22 a surprising number of people don't understand.

Another paradox. Private schools make no difference to a student's education. Therefore I will pay tens of thousands for child to go to one. Then I will claim it didn't make a difference.

steddyeddy

osarusan wrote: »

Eddy, if you are in favour of a meritocracy and don't want to see any child rewarded or punished for the wealth or lack thereof of their parents, are you not concerned that grammar schools with a quota for underprivileged children could actually exclude certain children even though they score higher than other students (who are underprivileged) on an entrance exam?

No I don't believe in quotas but I find the arguments against grammar school disingenuous. Labour politician Shami Chakrabarti disagrees with grammar schools because they introduce selection in schools, yet she seen fit to send her child to an 18k a year private school. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

steddyeddy

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I know. I remember Boris Johnson's brother, Jo talking about the excellenet state sector when he was asked "would you put your kids in one?" to silence.

The Talking Bread

There is a hypocrisy here but you also have to consider whilst they are lobbying for the people they represent the service is still there. Her kid I'd just one in a small pond while she is speaking on behalf of an ocean of kids. She has a voice and she is articulate in getting her message across. She also had an extremely wealthy husband worth millions so I assume he had a big say in the child's education route.
She does come across genuine in a lot of points she says on the issue.

Just need to consider that "somewhat"

The Talking Bread

Oh and 99% of politicians are hypocrites in some way or form! It's anot incurable disease!

steddyeddy

The Talking Bread wrote: »

There is a hypocrisy here but you also have to consider whilst they are lobbying for the people they represent the service is still there. Her kid I'd just one in a small pond while she is speaking on behalf of an ocean of kids. She has a voice and she is articulate in getting her message across. She also had an extremely wealthy husband worth millions so I assume he had a big say in the child's education route.
She does come across genuine in a lot of points she says on the issue.

Just need to consider that "somewhat"

Fair enough but she obviously doesn't think that selection is a bad thing and considered a fee paying choice the better school.

764dak

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

They are fully entitled to the same benefits by enrolling in a free school.

They want that, plus extra tuition and services, plus gatekeeping to keep out the poor and undesirables.

It is unfair, it perpetuates and worsens class differences, it ghettoizes the free system. It undermines the whole point of free tax-funded education.

Should parents who send their children to private school be exempt from paying education tax?

Del.Monte

What's education tax?

steddyeddy

I really hate the saving the state money arguement and who pays what tax ect.

joe40

I haven't read all the posts so apologies if this has been mentioned earlier, but as far as I know teacher salaries in private schools are still paid by dept of education. (if I'm wrong let me know) therefore they are not really private schools. If rich people want to send their kids to a private school where their fees pay for the tuition then that is their perogative but I find it galling that the taxpayer I.e me and you pick up part of the tab.

nice_guy80

joe40 wrote: »

I haven't read all the posts so apologies if this has been mentioned earlier, but as far as I know teacher salaries in private schools are still paid by dept of education. (if I'm wrong let me know) therefore they are not really private schools. If rich people want to send their kids to a private school where their fees pay for the tuition then that is their perogative but I find it galling that the taxpayer I.e me and you pick up part of the tab.

BINGO!

toysforboyz

Kids are kids, rich or poor, boarding school or public, there is bullies everywhere, some are unlucky in life to meet them, others are lucky to be one step ahead of them. Bullies want others to feel as bad as them, hence, the bullying. No excuse for it, whasoever.

Boarding schools are like any other school in this country. Shut them all down?... (sarcasm)

Stasi 2.0

Water John wrote: »

I suspect the OP really meant, fee paying schools.

But all schools in Ireland are fee paying.

Some schools just call it a "voluntary" contribution

steddyeddy

764dak wrote: »

Should parents who send their children to private school be exempt from paying education tax?

How about stop talking about the parent. It's the child that benefits or loses out depending on the school.

BoatMad

joe40 wrote: »

I haven't read all the posts so apologies if this has been mentioned earlier, but as far as I know teacher salaries in private schools are still paid by dept of education. (if I'm wrong let me know) therefore they are not really private schools. If rich people want to send their kids to a private school where their fees pay for the tuition then that is their perogative but I find it galling that the taxpayer I.e me and you pick up part of the tab.

private schools by and large have a quota of state funded teachers, and typically will have a number of privately funded teachers as well.

in effect all a private school is in ireland, is a school where the parents in essence pay more of a top-up then in other secondary schools . there is no issue in supporting that school with state teacher salaries , after all the schooling system would have to accommodate those pupils anyway somewhere in the system and the state would have to employ those teachers anyway to teach them. There is no evidence that private schools are at the top of the educational tree anyway, but just like private healthcare, Ireland has allowed its citizens too spend their money to benefits themselves. I see no ideological issue here

nice_guy80

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

But all schools in Ireland are fee paying.

Some schools just call it a "voluntary" contribution

big difference between asking for €100 and charging €5000

VinLieger

joe40 wrote: »

I haven't read all the posts so apologies if this has been mentioned earlier, but as far as I know teacher salaries in private schools are still paid by dept of education. (if I'm wrong let me know) therefore they are not really private schools. If rich people want to send their kids to a private school where their fees pay for the tuition then that is their perogative but I find it galling that the taxpayer I.e me and you pick up part of the tab.

Why? Every child under the constitution of this country has a right to education paid for buy the state? These parents are choosing to subsidise that education themselves with money they earned.

Since you haven't read the thread you might have missed the fact that every child in private education costs the state half of what a child in public does so these parents are effectively subsidising the states costs of educating their children. Now if you want to go down the road of if they can afford to pay then they should pay the full amount we need to look into refunding these parents the equivalent taxes that would otherwise have gone to educating their children because simply if you dont want to pay for their kids education why should they have to pay for yours?

Also can you tell me where the money will come from to pay for all the parents who cant afford the full costs of private school and now need to go back to the public system will come from?

Now also a clarification on your point about teachers in private education. It depends on the specific school but each private school has a mixture of department paid teachers and privately paid teachers. This is part of where the exorbitant fees go to to hire in some cases better teachers and to also reduce class sizes resulting in a better classroom experience for the child which has proven to affect how well children do in school.

steddyeddy

I don't think taking away state funding or closing them down is the solution. The problem is convincing people that a solution is needed in the fist place. Many people erroneously see the achievement of grades as independent of the school environment and cite factors such as wealth and parental influence. While these play a part the school you go to, i.e where you get your education affects the education you get. In other news ice is cold.

As Sally Ride, first American woman in space said:

For whatever reason, I didn't succumb to the stereotype that science wasn't for girls. I got encouragement from my parents. I never ran into a teacher or a counselor who told me that science was for boys. A lot of my friends did

We see the same sort of thing from some people today. University isn't for people of a certain class, they'd be more suited to apprenticeships ect. In Sally's case her friends were told that science wasn't for girls, they believed it and it reinforced the belief that science wasn't for girls.

Class-ism is now the last refuge of these types of people.

steddyeddy

BoatMad wrote: »

private schools by and large have a quota of state funded teachers, and typically will have a number of privately funded teachers as well.

in effect all a private school is in ireland, is a school where the parents in essence pay more of a top-up then in other secondary schools . there is no issue in supporting that school with state teacher salaries , after all the schooling system would have to accommodate those pupils anyway somewhere in the system and the state would have to employ those teachers anyway to teach them. There is no evidence that private schools are at the top of the educational tree anyway, but just like private healthcare, Ireland has allowed its citizens too spend their money to benefits themselves. I see no ideological issue here

There's plenty of evidence to that effect. You're more likely to get into university in Ireland if you went to a private school. You're also more likely to get into university if you switch from a public to a private school.

VinLieger

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't think taking away state funding or closing them down is the solution. The problem is convincing people that a solution is needed in the fist place. Many people erroneously see the achievement of grades as independent of the school environment and cite factors such as wealth and parental influence. While these play a part the school you go to, i.e where you get your education affects the education you get. In other news ice is cold.

As Sally Ride, first American woman in space said:



We see the same sort of thing from some people today. University isn't for people of a certain class, they'd be more suited to apprenticeships ect. In Sally's case her friends were told that science wasn't for girls, they believed it and it reinforced the belief that science wasn't for girls.

Class-ism is now the last refuge of these types of people.

Much of that is also to do with specific peoples and demographics attitudes to education. Children from middle class will be far more likely to be actively encouraged and pushed to do well in school by their parents versus working class or less well off parents who simply don't put the same value on it or possibly don't understand how much their attitude towards education affects their children's attitude towards it.

steddyeddy wrote: »

There's plenty of evidence to that effect. You're more likely to get into university in Ireland if you went to a private school. You're also more likely to get into university if you switch from a public to a private school.

Again this will also comes down to the fact anyone who switches from public to private will have parents who put a high value on a good education and encourage their child thusly.

Does going to private school help? Deffinitely, but I also don't think it outweighs the benefits of a child in public school getting the right amount of encouragement from a parent

silverharp

steddyeddy wrote: »

There's plenty of evidence to that effect. You're more likely to get into university in Ireland if you went to a private school. You're also more likely to get into university if you switch from a public to a private school.

in Ireland (or Dublin in reality) the difference is people don't go out of their way to live near the "good schools" you can live in Bray and send your kids to any of the private schools along the DART line. if you imagined Dublin without private schools then everyone that lives in D4 would send their kids to D4 schools and hay presto they would get the best grades. the argument would switch then to where you live decides how your kids do.

Annasopra

steddyeddy wrote: »

If stripping someone naked and threaten to rape them with a foreign object isn't sexual assault what is?

Exactly. I cant believe there is a suggestion it isnt.

steddyeddy

VinLieger wrote: »

Much of that is also to do with specific peoples and demographics attitudes to education. Children from middle class will be far more likely to be actively encouraged and pushed to do well in school by their parents versus working class or less well off parents who simply don't put the same value on it or possibly don't understand how much their attitude towards education affects their children's attitude towards it.

I'm not disagreeing that certain parents encourage more or less. I'm saying that two other variables like innate intelligence and the school they go to plays a big if not bigger part. Some people are saying that school doesn't matter. The same people who state that in no uncertain terms would they send their school to an inner city school are often the people who say the school doesn't really matter. It's hard to argue with that logic because there is none.

Again this will also comes down to the fact anyone who switches from public to private will have parents who put a high value on a good education and encourage their child thusly.

Actually I'm talking about scholarships. Not cases where the parents decide to pay. Not being able to put your child through private school doesn't mean they care any less either.

Does going to private school help? Deffinitely, but I also don't think it outweighs the benefits of a child in public school getting the right amount of encouragement from a parent

At this point I'll ask you for data to back your conclusions. My hypothesis is that a two tier school system leads to a situation where some dumber students get into university easier than some brighter students from a worse school.

steddyeddy

silverharp wrote: »

in Ireland (or Dublin in reality) the difference is people don't go out of their way to live near the "good schools" you can live in Bray and send your kids to any of the private schools along the DART line. if you imagined Dublin without private schools then everyone that lives in D4 would send their kids to D4 schools and hay presto they would get the best grades. the argument would switch then to where you live decides how your kids do.

It doesn't switch the argument it's an extension of it.

VinLieger

steddyeddy wrote: »

At this point I'll ask you for data to back your conclusions. My hypothesis is that a two tier school system leads to a situation where some dumber students get into university easier than some brighter students from a worse school.

I don't have evidence at least not to hand right now.

I don't disagree with the hypothesis that private school allows for that to happen, im arguing its not the single cause for it and in my opinion the childs parents attitude to education, the attitude they instill in the child and how much they push their child has a far greater impact on how a child does in school and their ability to get into university.

silverharp

steddyeddy wrote: »

It doesn't switch the argument it's an extension of it.

it comes back to parents drive kid's success not schools per say. Its just that ambitious parents want their kids mixing with likeminded people

steddyeddy

silverharp wrote: »

it comes back to parents drive kid's success not schools per say. Its just that ambitious parents want their kids mixing with likeminded people

There's an expression in science that goes "the plural of anecdote is not data". You'd need to back that up. How you'd do that is show me data that says that middle class children going to disadvantaged schools achieve the same marks. Another way to look at it would be to compare the grades of state VS public once they get to university. They're both in the same university so if the parental hypothesis was true then we would see a trend where private school kids outscore state ones.

silverharp

steddyeddy wrote: »

There's an expression in science that goes "the plural of anecdote is not data". You'd need to back that up. How you'd do that is show me data that says that middle class children going to disadvantaged schools achieve the same marks. Another way to look at it would be to compare the grades of state VS public once they get to university. They're both in the same university so if the parental hypothesis was true then we would see a trend where private school kids outscore state ones.

call it an educated hunch because its how I act as a parent. exactly my point is that I wouldn't send my kids to a disadvantaged school because I would fear that some of the attitudes of the group might rub off on them or that they would be bullied for being the only ones in the class wanting to learn or the teacher would get less done because of class behaviour or kids with little English etc.
your term "state v Public" confused me but Ill assume you are talking about the UK system ,If you wanted data I would say look at how house prices vary with school catchment areas in London, you can get into a chicken and egg discussion but at this stage the best school in a district will be the one where the parents fork out an extra 50K or 100k to live in a house identical to one 100mtrs the wrong way and where the school doesn't charge fees but is a Catholic school or an Anglican school. Virtuous circle....

BoatMad

I'm not disagreeing that certain parents encourage more or less. I'm saying that two other variables like innate intelligence and the school they go to plays a big if not bigger part. Some people are saying that school doesn't matter. The same people who state that in no uncertain terms would they send their school to an inner city school are often the people who say the school doesn't really matter. It's hard to argue with that logic because there is none.

There is a clear correlation between middle class income and university attendance, any teacher will confirm that its the motivation of the kid thats important not the school they are in. In schools dominate by the middle class ( state or private ) , there is a self reinforcing belief that everyine will " automatically " go on to third level education. That then tends to be self affirming as kids adopt the roles that are expected of them. it has little to do with intelligence .

notwithstanding all that m it could be argued we have too many in third level , because the apprentice system has completely failed

"Ireland: In 2013 Ireland at 51% had the fourth highest 25-34 year old ratio of third-level graduates to population in the developed world after South Korea at 67% and both Japan and Canada at 58% while at the other end of the spectrum, Italy was at 23% and Austria at 25%,.....Italy's ratio rose from 10% to 18% and Austria's increased from 14% to 20%. Germany was at 28% in 2013 and Sweden was at 36%" source: fin facts

Glenster

BoatMad wrote: »

"Ireland: In 2013 Ireland at 51% had the fourth highest 25-34 year old ratio of third-level graduates to population in the developed world after South Korea at 67% and both Japan and Canada at 58% while at the other end of the spectrum, Italy was at 23% and Austria at 25%,.....Italy's ratio rose from 10% to 18% and Austria's increased from 14% to 20%. Germany was at 28% in 2013 and Sweden was at 36%" source: fin facts

How could Italy's ratio be 23%,

but also rise from 10% to 18%?

Did you just lump in two sets of statistics for different data sets?

A rockman would never do something so blasé.

BoatMad

Glenster wrote: »

How could Italy's ratio be 23%,

but also rise from 10% to 18%?

Did you just lump in two sets of statistics for different data sets?

A rockman would never do something so blasé.

sorry left out a line in the cut and paste, one refers to 25-35 year old and the other is 25-65 year olds.

steddyeddy

BoatMad wrote: »

There is a clear correlation between middle class income and university attendance, any teacher will confirm that its the motivation of the kid thats important not the school they are in.

As before, the plural of anecdote is not data. How do you know the school isn't important?

In schools dominate by the middle class ( state or private ) , there is a self reinforcing belief that everyine will " automatically " go on to third level education. That then tends to be self affirming as kids adopt the roles that are expected of them. it has little to do with intelligence .

Agree completely. The problem is intelligence becomes evident at third level and there were many private school kids I encountered who would be much better suited to an apprenticeship but felt compelled to go to university.

notwithstanding all that m it could be argued we have too many in third level , because the apprentice system has completely failed

"Ireland: In 2013 Ireland at 51% had the fourth highest 25-34 year old ratio of third-level graduates to population in the developed world after South Korea at 67% and both Japan and Canada at 58% while at the other end of the spectrum, Italy was at 23% and Austria at 25%,.....Italy's ratio rose from 10% to 18% and Austria's increased from 14% to 20%. Germany was at 28% in 2013 and Sweden was at 36%" source: fin facts

[/QUOTE]

See above for my feelings on that!

VinLieger

steddyeddy wrote: »

There's an expression in science that goes "the plural of anecdote is not data". You'd need to back that up. How you'd do that is show me data that says that middle class children going to disadvantaged schools achieve the same marks. Another way to look at it would be to compare the grades of state VS public once they get to university. They're both in the same university so if the parental hypothesis was true then we would see a trend where private school kids outscore state ones.

Its a fact private school parents value education highly otherwise they wouldnt send their children to private schools but there's no proof beyond that the school is the only thing responsible for good results. Your asking for data while providing none to prove your argument either

3 public schools in affluent areas of south county Dublin consistently appear in the top regions of the league tables, Muckross, Colaiste Iosagain and Colaiste Eoin, the latter 2 usually higher than the most of the private schools.

joe40

There is far too much of an emphasis for some people for "selection" in our schools. I work as a teacher in Northern Ireland where up until fairly recently the horrible grammar school system was in full flow and is still far from over. The private school system is simply selection based on wealth which in my view is even more obnoxious.
I work in a large co-ed all ability school with a full range of abilities and social backgrounds which I believe is healthy. It gives a more balanced view of society instead of been locked away in a privileged establishment. I have past pupils that are doctors and lawyers, I have past pupils that are in jail. Education is about preparing for life, Leaving cert/A-level grades are an important part of that process but by no means the only part.
I also fully agree with the opinion that parents attitudes are vital to pupil performance. Unfortunately social background is a determining factor but there are always exceptions.

silverharp

VinLieger wrote: »

Its a fact private school parents value education highly otherwise they wouldnt send their children to private schools but there's no proof beyond that the school is the only thing responsible for good results. Your asking for data while providing none to prove your argument either

3 public schools in affluent areas of south county Dublin consistently appear in the top regions of the league tables, Muckross, Colaiste Iosagain and Colaiste Eoin, the latter 2 usually higher than the most of the private schools.

funny enough growing up I thought Muckross was a fee paying school because oftentimes the brothers would often go to private schools. If proves the point though stick the school in a good catchment area and hay presto its a high performing school

steddyeddy

VinLieger wrote: »

Its a fact private school parents value education highly otherwise they wouldnt send their children to private schools but there's no proof beyond that the school is the only thing responsible for good results. Your asking for data while providing none to prove your argument either

3 public schools in affluent areas of south county Dublin consistently appear in the top regions of the league tables, Muckross, Colaiste Iosagain and Colaiste Eoin, the latter 2 usually higher than the most of the private schools.

I'm sure they value education. They might value the concept of having an educated child but that doesn't mean the child will have a greater grasp of the concepts. They might just have a greater urge to go to third level.

Sorry I actually thought I linked it in an earlier post. Professor Madeline Atkins of Cambridge university conducted two excellent studies on the effect schools have on grades.

In both studies, both covering a huge amount of students she found that state school pupils who achieved similar GCSE grades to private pupils do significantly better at university. In other words the difference in schools is masking the true abilities of students. From the BBC.

State pupils do better at university, study shows


State school pupils do better at university than independent school candidates who have achieved the same A-level grades, a study shows.
The Higher Education Funding Council (Hefce) tracked 130,000 students beginning degrees in 2007, looking at schooling, background and ethnicity.
It found on some measures state pupils were significantly more likely to get a 2:1 than their private school peers.
Private schools said a bigger share of its pupils overall got a 2:1 or above.
The Independent Schools Council highlighted figures in the report showing that 67% of independent school pupils achieved a 2:1 or above, compared with 62.3% of state school and college pupils.
But when students with the same A-level grades were compared, the results were different.
Of those students who achieved ABB at A-level, some 69% of students from independent schools went on to gain 2:1 or a above compared with about 77% of students educated at state schools.
And at three Bs, 61% of independent students pupils got a 2:1 or above compared with 70% of state school students.
'Advantages'
Prof Madeleine Atkins, Hefce chief executive, said the findings confirmed an earlier study by her organisation.
But she stressed that this research, tracking around 80% of English-based undergraduates starting at all UK universities in a single year, was the most comprehensive of its kind.
The findings are important because it adds to the debate about how universities select their candidates.
Nearly all universities use what is known as "contextual data" to decide which candidates should be offered a place.
This is when those from state and other backgrounds are made lower offers, in terms of the A-levels required for entry to courses, than private school counterparts.
The idea behind this is that these pupils have not had the advantages of a private education but still have potential and should not miss out because they did not go to private school.
'Inform debate'
Prof Atkins said the report showed that independent school candidates came into university with better A-levels but that they were performing less well by the end of their degree courses. But she would not offer any explanation as to why this may be the case.
She said: "The study presents a robust and independent set of findings to inform discussion and debate, and to stimulate action. Further work - by Hefce, by the sector and by government - will be needed to understand why these effects are happening, and what sorts of interventions will be most effective in bringing about positive change."

steddyeddy

The same study with the Telegraph's spin on things. The bit in bold highlights my experience. I'm aware that the English system is far more divided than the Irish one.

State school pupils are likely to do better at university than privately educated pupils who start with similar grades, the University of Cambridge has found.
For every two independent school pupils who go into a Russell Group University with an A* at A level, three state school pupils who start at the same level will get a first class degree.
“In both Russell and non-Russell Group universities, students from independent schools were less likely to achieve either a first class degree or at least an upper second class degree than students from comprehensive schools with similar prior attainment."
Dr Vidal Rodeiro, from Cambridge Assessment
Previous research has argued privately educated students may have less incentives to to perform well at university and therefore spend more time socialising or they may have been over tutored and subsequently struggle after leaving school.



Dr Vidal Rodeiro, from Cambridge Assessment, the department of the University of Cambridge which carried out the research, said: “In both Russell and non-Russell Group universities, students from independent schools were less likely to achieve either a first class degree or at least an upper second class degree than students from comprehensive schools with similar prior attainment."
The researchers looked at all full time graduates who started a first degree in the academic year 2010/2011 in an UK higher education institution and finished in the academic year 2012/2013.

BoatMad

joe40 wrote: »

There is far too much of an emphasis for some people for "selection" in our schools. I work as a teacher in Northern Ireland where up until fairly recently the horrible grammar school system was in full flow and is still far from over. The private school system is simply selection based on wealth which in my view is even more obnoxious.
I work in a large co-ed all ability school with a full range of abilities and social backgrounds which I believe is healthy. It gives a more balanced view of society instead of been locked away in a privileged establishment. I have past pupils that are doctors and lawyers, I have past pupils that are in jail. Education is about preparing for life, Leaving cert/A-level grades are an important part of that process but by no means the only part.
I also fully agree with the opinion that parents attitudes are vital to pupil performance. Unfortunately social background is a determining factor but there are always exceptions.

most selection bias is a function of parental choice, based on available disposable wealth . A lot of it is not particularly based on fact . All normal families will use their wealth to benefit their children, whether its grinds, better holidays, better clothes etc, etc. We live in a capitalistic economy where "reward" is financial and the spending of that " reward" is used for personal benefit , whether thats a new BMW 7 series or Johnny goes to Blackrock college , I fail to see the issue.

BoatMad

I work in a large co-ed all ability school with a full range of abilities and social backgrounds which I believe is healthy. It gives a more balanced view of society instead of been locked away in a privileged establishment.

I'm not sure that exposing children to future potential criminals " I have past pupils that are in jail" is in any way useful to their education.

nor is" Education is about preparing for life" really that true any more, its an aspiration , largely borrowed from the days when education was the prevue of " gentlemen " etc .

Today education has a harder edge to it, as we prepare our children to compete for " income " in a globalised technological society . we hold onto the " aspirations : but the reality is of course entirely different

steddyeddy

BoatMad wrote: »

I'm not sure that exposing children to future potential criminals " I have past pupils that are in jail" is in any way useful to their education.

nor is" Education is about preparing for life" really that true any more, its an aspiration , largely borrowed from the days when education was the prevue of " gentlemen " etc .

Today education has a harder edge to it, as we prepare our children to compete for " income " in a globalised technological society . we hold onto the " aspirations : but the reality is of course entirely different

Ah I don't think he meant children need criminals in fairness. I think he meant shielding your kids from real life via artificial society like some private schools. Some schools offer a refuge from immigrants, different genders, races or social classes and I don't think that's conducive for a healthy outlook on things.

Olishi4

BoatMad wrote: »

I'm not sure that exposing children to future potential criminals " I have past pupils that are in jail" is in any way useful to their education.

He didn't say which social background the children who ended up in jail were from. Sure isn't this thread about a criminal assault committed within a private school?

Anyway all of top schools in Ireland are private or they are from affluent areas. The aim should be, that we need to decrease this gap so that we are closer to getting an equal amount of children who have the ability but are not being encouraged or motivated to reach their potential.

If it is a fact that children are not being encouraged at home, then that needs to be addressed and not used as an excuse and left as a dead end. Compounding that idea and not tackling it means that children from less affluent areas will be discriminated against consistently and sometimes subconsciously so. From reading the thread, it seems that many are content to compound that belief and if those posters were teachers themself, I would not be happy with them teaching children from lower social backgrounds with that mindset.

Whether or not you can fix it completely is unknown but recognition of an unlevel playing field should be acknowledged and steps should be implemented to decrease wide gaps in performance. Perhaps we need more interaction from teachers with parents, more funding to schools that are in need of it most and more training for teachers and the importance of understanding the difficulties and complex situation that students from lower social backgrounds are faced with.

steddyeddy

Olishi4 wrote: »

He didn't say which social background the children who ended up in jail were from. Sure isn't this thread about a criminal assault committed within a private school?

Anyway all of top schools in Ireland are private or they are from affluent areas. The aim should be, that we need to decrease this gap so that we are closer to getting an equal amount of children who have the ability but are not being encouraged or motivated to reach their potential.

If it is a fact that children are not being encouraged at home, then that needs to be addressed and not used as an excuse and left as a dead end. Compounding that idea and not tackling it means that children from less affluent areas will be discriminated against consistently and sometimes subconsciously so. From reading the thread, it seems that many are content to compound that belief and if those posters were teachers themself, I would not be happy with them teaching children from lower social backgrounds with that mindset.

Whether or not you can fix it completely is unknown but recognition of an unlevel playing field should be acknowledged and steps should be implemented to decrease wide gaps in performance. Perhaps we need more interaction from teachers with parents, more funding to schools that are in need of it most and more training for teachers and the importance of understanding the difficulties and complex situation that students from lower social backgrounds are faced with.

An accurate read. The last refuge of acceptable discrimination in society is Classism. It seems clear in the mind of some posters that there is a clear correlation in intelligence, ability and work ethic with class. Their evidence for this seems to be related to conditional responsibility.

There's a willingness by some people to accept that the educational outcome of people from poverty is due to simply to less ability, attitude to education or work ethic. No power is given to the circumstance which leads to these outcomes.

It's a fact that some children aren't encouraged at home but I wonder how encouraged some people in the top schools are encouraged outside of "let's enrol him in private school and tell him/her education is good." My experience with private school kids in science never led me to believe they encouragement went beyond "get an education".

We know that the school you attend significantly affects your grades and is not reflective of true ability. So with that knowledge can we not admit that a two tier education is the enemy of meritocracy?

State school pupils do better at university,
research confirms

Date:


November 5, 2015
Source:
Taylor & Francis
Summary:
State school pupils are likely to do better at university than
independent school pupils with similar A Level results, new research confirms.
Researchers were investigating how effective the A* grade at A Level is as a
predictor of university performance and a finding confirmed previous studies
about the divide between the performance of state and independent school
students at university.

steddyeddy

BoatMad wrote: »

most selection bias is a function of parental choice, based on available disposable wealth . A lot of it is not particularly based on fact . All normal families will use their wealth to benefit their children, whether its grinds, better holidays, better clothes etc, etc. We live in a capitalistic economy where "reward" is financial and the spending of that " reward" is used for personal benefit , whether thats a new BMW 7 series or Johnny goes to Blackrock college , I fail to see the issue.

Well the issue is that Johnny is going to a school which gives him significant advantage over Tommy who is already born disadvantaged. It enlarges the inequality of outcome and it masks the real ability or inability of a student.

steddyeddy

Students from another fee charging school suspected of slashing man with Swiss army knife.



Three teenage students at one of south Dublin’s most prestigious private schools have been questioned about a savage knife attack that left a man with horrific facial injuries.

The incident happened shortly before midnight on Christmas Eve in Dalkey when a row broke out over a teenage girl.

The 26-year-old victim, who is from the Glenageary area of the capital, almost lost an eye and suffered huge blood loss when he was stabbed in the face with a Swiss Army knife.

His suspected attacker, a 17-year-old boy from Killiney, was arrested on Tuesday and questioned at Shankill Garda Station before being released without charge.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/teens-from-wellknown-private-school-questioned-over-barbaric-stabbing-35327532.html

evolving_doors

steddyeddy wrote: »

Students from another fee charging school suspected of slashing man with Swiss army knife.



Three teenage students at one of south Dublin’s most prestigious private schools have been questioned about a savage knife attack that left a man with horrific facial injuries.

The incident happened shortly before midnight on Christmas Eve in Dalkey when a row broke out over a teenage girl.

The 26-year-old victim, who is from the Glenageary area of the capital, almost lost an eye and suffered huge blood loss when he was stabbed in the face with a Swiss Army knife.

His suspected attacker, a 17-year-old boy from Killiney, was arrested on Tuesday and questioned at Shankill Garda Station before being released without charge.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/teens-from-wellknown-private-school-questioned-over-barbaric-stabbing-35327532.html

Hold on though... what has the fact that they supposedly go to a fee charging school got to do with it? This happened outside school time.

Look for any other crimes in that rag newspaper... did they fill us in on where the perpetrators went to school... 'the former student of a non-fee-paying school was remanded in custody'.

The journalist is also incorrect in stating that the school is 'private'. But hey, it grabs attention right!

whoopsadoodles

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Hold on though... what has the fact that they supposedly go to a fee charging school got to do with it? This happened outside school time.

Look for any other crimes in that rag newspaper... did they fill us in on where the perpetrators went to school... 'the former student of a non-fee-paying school was remanded in custody'.

The journalist is also incorrect in stating that the school is 'private'. But hey, it grabs attention right!

The three "private school" boys were questioned about the attack, but it doesn't say the little sh*t who was arrested was from the same school. It conveniently leaves that part out.

So some kids who may have witnessed the before or afters were asked some questions. Normal. It doesn't imply at.all. that they had anything to do with the attack.

Such a fcuking rag.

Sure a fcuk load of my friends were questioned about Raoinaid Murray's murder because they were at a party in Dun Laoghaire that night. None of them were ever suspects. And none of them went to fee paying schools but sure what relevance is that.

josha1

steddyeddy wrote: »

Students from another fee charging school suspected of slashing man with Swiss army knife.



Three teenage students at one of south Dublin’s most prestigious private schools have been questioned about a savage knife attack that left a man with horrific facial injuries.

The incident happened shortly before midnight on Christmas Eve in Dalkey when a row broke out over a teenage girl.

The 26-year-old victim, who is from the Glenageary area of the capital, almost lost an eye and suffered huge blood loss when he was stabbed in the face with a Swiss Army knife.

His suspected attacker, a 17-year-old boy from Killiney, was arrested on Tuesday and questioned at Shankill Garda Station before being released without charge.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/teens-from-wellknown-private-school-questioned-over-barbaric-stabbing-35327532.html

I was so worried that this thread would die a painful death and that no one could defend the complete and utter ludicrous lies that started it.

But apparently we have you to the rescue to feed us yet more ****e from some rag from people that don't even go to a private school.

In the name of equality surely you're going to go to some public school thread and say that public schools should be closed. Because you clearly don't have a chip on your shoulder or anything.

steddyeddy

josha1 wrote: »

I was so worried that this thread would die a painful death and that no one could defend the complete and utter ludicrous lies that started it.

But apparently we have you to the rescue to feed us yet more ****e from some rag from people that don't even go to a private school.

In the name of equality surely you're going to go to some public school thread and say that public schools should be closed. Because you clearly don't have a chip on your shoulder or anything.

"From people who don't even go to a private school"?. How dare they have an opinion.

steddyeddy

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Hold on though... what has the fact that they supposedly go to a fee charging school got to do with it? This happened outside school time.

Look for any other crimes in that rag newspaper... did they fill us in on where the perpetrators went to school... 'the former student of a non-fee-paying school was remanded in custody'.

The journalist is also incorrect in stating that the school is 'private'. But hey, it grabs attention right!

I just posted out of interest. It doesn't have anything to do with it. You can get scum anywhere.