Norwegian Air Discussion

Irish Steve

JCX BXC wrote: »

The A321LR is in essence a 757 replacement, however I'm not sure it has the range for DUB-LAX. Nothing we've not seen before really, slightly better range but a slightly lower payload.

Correct, LAX and SFO are in the 40% (rough guess) of the USA that's out of the range of the LR, but it will for sure be of interest for places like Orlando, and all the other East Coast destinations that don't always justify the 330's. Denver is another place that should be of interest for a narrow body, and the appeal of the 321LR will be the huge improvement on operating costs compared to the 757.

737max

Only thing stopping Norwegian is a response from Ryanair or who ever is the big kahuna at which ever hub they choose e.g. Norwegian launch flights from Stansted to Cork and that flight in Cork flies on to U.S. and Ryanair then in response offer €4.99 flights between Stansted and Cork to drive Norwegian away.

Irish Steve

737max wrote: »

Only thing stopping Norwegian is a response from Ryanair or who ever is the big kahuna at which ever hub they choose e.g. Norwegian launch flights from Stansted to Cork and that flight in Cork flies on to U.S. and Ryanair then in response offer €4.99 flights between Stansted and Cork to drive Norwegian away.

Cork is probably the worst of the 3 Irish airports to do that from, due to the performance restrictions imposed by the runway. I've said for a long time that with the right feeds and structure in place, there's a case to be made for using Shannon as a hub for flights from local regional airports where ever in Europe, with low cost A380 flights to the East Coast (ideally somewhere close to Boston,), as with the right handling etc, it would be just about possible to do 3 flights a day each way with 2 airframes. Sounds crazy, but when you work out the logisitics, I suspect a lot of people would be interested with the right pricing.

JCX BXC

Irish Steve wrote: »

Correct, LAX and SFO are in the 40% (rough guess) of the USA that's out of the range of the LR, but it will for sure be of interest for places like Orlando, and all the other East Coast destinations that don't always justify the 330's. Denver is another place that should be of interest for a narrow body, and the appeal of the 321LR will be the huge improvement on operating costs compared to the 757.

Fair enough, although would the routes for the 321LR not be similar to the ones currently or historically served by the 757? And in terms of operating costs definitely, it could help drive fares down on the traditional airlines.

Only thing stopping Norwegian is a response from Ryanair or who ever is the big kahuna at which ever hub they choose e.g. Norwegian launch flights from Stansted to Cork and that flight in Cork flies on to U.S. and Ryanair then in response offer €4.99 flights between Stansted and Cork to drive Norwegian away.

I think (without any experience in the true financial elements of the route), that as Norwegian could operate to the US and suck passengers from Stansted, that Ryanair could lower fares to nothing and Norwegian could still make a fair go at STN-ORK-PVD, just as Aer Lingus and Ethiopian compete on DUB-LAX, a route I doubt Ethiopian would be able to sustain on without the ADD traffic.

JCX BXC

Irish Steve wrote: »

Cork is probably the worst of the 3 Irish airports to do that from, due to the performance restrictions imposed by the runway. I've said for a long time that with the right feeds and structure in place, there's a case to be made for using Shannon as a hub for flights from local regional airports where ever in Europe, with low cost A380 flights to the East Coast (ideally somewhere close to Boston,), as with the right handling etc, it would be just about possible to do 3 flights a day each way with 2 airframes. Sounds crazy, but when you work out the logisitics, I suspect a lot of people would be interested with the right pricing.

That sounds ambitious, and actually quite exciting, although I suspect we won't see anything like that occur, it's a nice thought. Could be done, but would anyone actually do it? Unless MOL has a sudden burst of innovation. I was using Cork as an example, and I suspect the same can be applied for BFS, DUB and SNN.

I suspect that Norwegian haven't quite mastered low cost TATL, although I may be eating my hat soon.

Gaoth Laidir

Slightly off topic, but why has there never been a route from Ireland to say Dallas or Houston? Atlanta has always been there and is a hub for Delta but as a destination what does it have to offer over Texas, where there is a large Irish diaspora?

Irishweather

JCX BXC wrote: »

The A321LR is in essence a 757 replacement, however I'm not sure it has the range for DUB-LAX. Nothing we've not seen before really, slightly better range but a slightly lower payload.

Isn't the range of the 757 4,100 Nautical Miles?

JCX BXC

Irishweather wrote: »

Isn't the range of the 757 4,100 Nautical Miles?

Maybe with less PAX?

Idbatterim

the new a321 would be able to reach from dublin to chicago and atlanta... it says vegas is 4022 nautical miles, and the 321LR can do 4,000. So could one of these aircraft be used for this route?

Rawr

Apparently Norwegian have ordered the A321LR too, at least according to this:

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2016/07/norwegian-selects-30-a321lr-for-first-transatlantic-routes.html

Not sure if this continues to be the case, but according to the above Airbus article, 30 were ordered last year for delivery in 2019. I had assumed that they would remain a Boeing only airline, but I guess they don't mind a few Airbus' too.

L1011

Idbatterim wrote: »

the new a321 would be able to reach from dublin to chicago and atlanta... it says vegas is 4022 nautical miles, and the 321LR can do 4,000. So could one of these aircraft be used for this route?

With an unsustainably low passenger load and with low winds, possibly. Realistically not a hope.

goingnowhere

Idbatterim wrote: »

the new a321 would be able to reach from dublin to chicago and atlanta... it says vegas is 4022 nautical miles, and the 321LR can do 4,000. So could one of these aircraft be used for this route?

Doubtful, its 4022 as the crow flies (great circle) but the NAT routing on the Atlantic varies so it will be more than 4022 plus the headwinds against you state bound, you won't make it. 757's have to stop for fuel on windy days for much shorter legs.

Vegas Dublin assuming you don't have a t/o performance issue due the heat might work

IngazZagni

L1011 wrote: »

With an unsustainably low passenger load and with low winds, possibly. Realistically not a hope.

Exactly. These quoted ranges are often the max range with zero wind with low or no passengers. You need to decrease it significantly to get a realistic number. On top of variable winds and payload restrictions you also have to remember aircraft need enough fuel at their destination to reach their alternate plus another 30 minutes. holding fuel may be required also.

On top of this in Cork you have departure weight restrictions which I believe limit Norwegian to ~160 passengers which will hamper profititability on the route. The Max will help but I don't think it will have the massive increase in performance that many people are hoping for.

I really hope for Corks sake that it does work out. They deserve it.

As for Norwegians Airbus Neo orders. What's the latest on that? The last I heard was that they have no plans to introduce these into their own fleet but hope to set up their own leasing programme.

737max

all for the sake of 200m of extra runway which has been planned at the north end of the runway for an eternity
The development plan can be found at http://corkcocoplans.ie/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/2016/07/Airport-SLAP-Sept-2010.pdf (i think)

kub

737max wrote: »

Only thing stopping Norwegian is a response from Ryanair or who ever is the big kahuna at which ever hub they choose e.g. Norwegian launch flights from Stansted to Cork and that flight in Cork flies on to U.S. and Ryanair then in response offer €4.99 flights between Stansted and Cork to drive Norwegian away.

What about this? I wonder did they strike a deal?

http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/01/news/companies/norwegian-low-cost-alliance-ryanan-easyjet/index.html

marno21

Anyone else think a Cork-Dublin flight would be viable for connections? Given that Dublin now has 10+ transatlantic connections, Dubai/Abu Dhabi/Doha/Addis Ababa along with a rake of European short-haul destinations it could be useful if services correctly with the right aircraft. I'd doubt its viability with an ATR 42 or similar given the restrictions but given the amount of people connecting via LHR/AMS/CDG it could be useful. It would also have you at Dublin Airport with your bags checked through and save you the almost 300km drive/bus journey, and saves you the bother of having to fly east to go west if you're going to the US/Canada.

Idbatterim

Ryanair are shortly not going to be point to point anymore I believe. They have started trialling it in Rome and Dublin is up next I believe. Also Ryanair are in talks with Norwegian about feeding traffic into each other. So Ryanair may start it up. As Ryanair has extensive short haul operatiks from Dublin. Also aer lingus possibly and is possibly more likely and who you had in mind Marno...

marno21

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ryanair are shortly not going to be point to point anymore I believe. They have started trialling it in Rome and Dublin is up next I believe. Also Ryanair are in talks with Norwegian about feeding traffic into each other. So Ryanair may start it up. As Ryanair has extensive short haul operatiks from Dublin. Also aer lingus possibly and is possibly more likely and who you had in mind Marno...

I would've said Aer Lingus (as regional). I don't think an ATR would suffice but a service operated by CityJet on an SU95/Embraer etc could take off so to speak?

L1011

marno21 wrote: »

Anyone else think a Cork-Dublin flight would be viable for connections? Given that Dublin now has 10+ transatlantic connections, Dubai/Abu Dhabi/Doha/Addis Ababa along with a rake of European short-haul destinations it could be useful if services correctly with the right aircraft. I'd doubt its viability with an ATR 42 or similar given the restrictions but given the amount of people connecting via LHR/AMS/CDG it could be useful. It would also have you at Dublin Airport with your bags checked through and save you the almost 300km drive/bus journey, and saves you the bother of having to fly east to go west if you're going to the US/Canada.

Have thought it's viable for connections for years. However, the fog issues may scare people off using it. Bus won't get you to the connecting flight in time even if it's only a handful of days a year

Irishweather

goingnowhere wrote: »

Doubtful, its 4022 as the crow flies (great circle) but the NAT routing on the Atlantic varies so it will be more than 4022 plus the headwinds against you state bound, you won't make it. 757's have to stop for fuel on windy days for much shorter legs.

Vegas Dublin assuming you don't have a t/o performance issue due the heat might work

Right. So what is the actual realistic range?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Irishweather

Ok, so locations within an 8 hour flight, i.e Chicago and Orlando?

Van.Bosch

L1011 wrote: »

Have thought it's viable for connections for years. However, the fog issues may scare people off using it. Bus won't get you to the connecting flight in time even if it's only a handful of days a year

But surely that's the same for any connection hub?

L1011

Van.Bosch wrote: »

But surely that's the same for any connection hub?

Cork isn't the hub here, it's the spoke and it's well known in Cork for having cancellations due to fog. People drive or bus to Dublin and would continue to do so in many cases.

The passengers who do connect over LHR and AMS clearly are OK with it but it'd have to be considered as a factor on any DUB connection

JCX BXC

God you'd swear it was happening every second day, it's fairly rare, as Cork can cope with the fog most of the time.

marno21

This evening's BFS-SWF has stopped in Gander for a drop.

This evening's BFS-PVD has been cancelled.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Van.Bosch

L1011 wrote: »

Cork isn't the hub here, it's the spoke and it's well known in Cork for having cancellations due to fog. People drive or bus to Dublin and would continue to do so in many cases.

The passengers who do connect over LHR and AMS clearly are OK with it but it'd have to be considered as a factor on any DUB connection

My point was that if ORK weather is ab issue, then it is going to be an issue whether it is a spoke feeding DUB/AMS/LHR?

marno21

Van.Bosch wrote: »

My point was that if ORK weather is ab issue, then it is going to be an issue whether it is a spoke feeding DUB/AMS/LHR?

I'm assuming he meant that a flyers perception of possible fog problems at Cork may make them more inclined to drive or get the bus as opposed to relying on a connecting flight from Cork-Dublin.

I'd love to see connecting figures from Kerry. It's a pity the AT43's are doing the route most of the time cos it would be very useful for T/A flyers if there was no luggage restrictions. Plus the fact that the ATRs are a bit **** to fly in.

JCX BXC

marno21 wrote: »

This evening's BFS-SWF has stopped in Gander for a drop.

This evening's BFS-PVD has been cancelled.

Crew sickness for PVD apperently.