Norwegian Air Discussion

737max

A350s?
Why?
Aer Lingus were suffering competition from load active, yield passive competitors in the European market and now they are going to suffer it for transatlantic.
How is a new plane with fractionally lower costs going to help them compete with airlines who are happy to make small profits on near similar routes.
Norwegian could be doing the exact same damage to them with early model 777s bought for a few million euro a piece. Norwegian will still be making feck all but hurting Aer Lingus just as much.

BTW; those Aer Lingus Financial results last week were not good.

TheChizler

bk wrote: »

Actually the opposite is true, you should always select the local currency of the country you are in. US Dollar in your case.

I think they've come home to Ireland there.

john boye

Idbatterim wrote: »

I will be delighted if Dublin is working out great for them, cant wait for them to bring in the 787's!

Bring on a route to vegas!

Norwegian were forced to pull their 787s from Vegas routes during summer months so don't hold your breath there.

bk

737max wrote: »

A350s?
Why?

A combination of shiny new aircraft, with nice new interiors and lower operating costs (thus lower ticket prices) could be serious trouble for EI

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather see Norwegian open up new routes then necessarily go head to head with AerLingus on the same routes. But AL can't just stand still either.

jjbrien

john boye wrote: »

Norwegian were forced to pull their 787s from Vegas routes during summer months so don't hold your breath there.

Vegas is too hot during the summer be madness going there that time of year. They could maybe make a winter seasonal route. If its the 787 I can see them maybe first doing JFK or EWR or maybe BOS. That would start to cause Aer Lingus some serious problems. Norwegian should team up with Jet Blue and Southwest stateside to have more connectivity.

eorpach

Very useful thread, this. Thanks everybody!

Question for those who have travelled: How strictly enforced is their hand baggage policy? (Carry-on Bag +personal item)
Is it weighed OR measured in Dublin Airport? Or on the homebound flight?

Thanks!

gizmo81

eorpach wrote: »

Very useful thread, this. Thanks everybody!

Question for those who have travelled: How strictly enforced is their hand baggage policy? (Carry-on Bag +personal item)
Is it weighed OR measured in Dublin Airport? Or on the homebound flight?

Thanks!

Galway Born gave a great review on post #44

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057742365&page=3

Looks like they weight the carry on baggage sadly.

Captain_Crash

jjbrien wrote: »

If its the 787 I can see them maybe first doing JFK or EWR or maybe BOS. That would start to cause Aer Lingus some serious problems. Norwegian should team up with Jet Blue and Southwest stateside to have more connectivity.

EI already have an extensive interline with jetBlue so I cant see Norwegian doing anything there. Southwest is also a no go as their business model doesn't really cater for that type of operation (its the exact model Ryanair's operation is based on), & they don't serve either JFK or EWR .

bk

Captain_Crash wrote: »

EI already have an extensive interline with jetBlue so I cant see Norwegian doing anything there. Southwest is also a no go as their business model doesn't really cater for that type of operation (its the exact model Ryanair's operation is based on), & they don't serve either JFK or EWR .

You are correct, but then Ryanair is now talking about starting interline services, so wouldn't be a stretch to imangine Southwest doing the same.

In fact they are looking to do exactly that:
https://skift.com/2016/08/19/southwest-wants-to-start-working-with-more-international-airlines/

roundymac

gizmo81 wrote: »

Galway Born gave a great review on post #44

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057742365&page=3

Looks like they weight the carry on baggage sadly.

Thankfully they don't weigh the passengers though, I'd be very expensive if they did, 124kgs.:D

gizmo81

roundymac wrote: »

Thankfully they don't weigh the passengers though, I'd be very expensive if they did, 124kgs.:D

Hahahaha

Porridge for me from now on so

Captain_Crash

bk wrote: »

You are correct, but then Ryanair is now talking about starting interline services, so wouldn't be a stretch to imangine Southwest doing the same.

In fact they are looking to do exactly that:
https://skift.com/2016/08/19/southwest-wants-to-start-working-with-more-international-airlines/

Very true, and its certainly not something that can be ruled out, however leaving aside the small matter of WN not flying to two of the airports mentioned (there are others so its not a huge deal) I don't believe they would enter into any interlines as extensive as EI's is with B6 so as of now its not something EI would greatly worry about... as with everything in aviation, this is liable to change quickly!

Also, correct me if im wrong, but I believe the agreement FR are looking at with DY excludes them from liability in the event of missed connections. This wouldn't work on long haul t/a flights where missed connections are not uncommon

bk

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Very true, and its certainly not something that can be ruled out, however leaving aside the small matter of WN not flying to two of the airports mentioned (there are others so its not a huge deal) I don't believe they would enter into any interlines as extensive as EI's is with B6 so as of now its not something EI would greatly worry about... as with everything in aviation, this is liable to change quickly!

True, though I do wonder how many EI passengers actually transfer. I suspect the majority of Irish people flying to the US are heading straight to NY, Boston, SF, LA, etc. anyway.

So I'm not sure transferring is such a big deal overall.

Also you have to wonder if Ryanair, Easyjet and Southwest aren't all watching closely the success (or not) of these new Norwegian routes. If successful, some or all of them might decide to do the same. SW now fly international, mostly to the Caribbean, but no reason why they couldn't fly East too. They have a large number of Max-8's on order, so they certainly have the ability to do the same themselves and the pilots who owner a share in the airline would certainly prefer that.

737max

Ryanair are at 97% occupancy in July.
The 737Max planes are very slow to arrive.
I can't see them assigning 737max to any of these routes when they can be using them profitably(even more profitably than 737NG) on existing routes.

bk

737max wrote: »

Ryanair are at 97% occupancy in July.
The 737Max planes are very slow to arrive.
I can't see them assigning 737max to any of these routes when they can be using them profitably(even more profitably than 737NG) on existing routes.

In the short term I agree and it is similar with Southwest, their first max's need to be used to replace ageing 737 classics.

Which is why Ryanair, Easyjet and maybe SW all would be interested in a short term agreement with Norwegian. Get some money out of it and get some insight to how it all works out and at least some name for flying transatlantic. All while waiting for more aircraft to perhaps go it alone themselves in a couple of years.

xpletiv

The biggest thing I hope for our of Norweigen doing these routes is the changes in Aer Lingus; but since they havent changed anything in years, I doubt they will do much...

I honestly believe that of all the transatlantic flights I have taken, that Aer Lingus is unquestionably the worst. Both going over and back, the service was poor; a zillion announcements on red eye flights to promote things like their duty free, severe lack of attention to passengers or bringing water/drinks to us during the flight (in fact literally twice on the entire outbound flight to NYC), and they still charge through the nose; every time Ive looked at going over to the US, they are always more expensive than their US counterparts, or more expensive than going over to UK/Holland/France. Eg; flight to Orlando was 398 with Delta, a fantastic airline. Same flight with AL was 770. I obviously went Delta.

So even though we have already had the US flights from Delta, American, United coming over to Dublin, AL have never dropped their prices or improved their service. I dont see it happening with Norweigen either, and thats a sad thing; I like AL going over Europe, but I'll never go with them transatlantic again.

Idbatterim

that is very interesting about norwegian and the vegas flights...

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/tourism/norwegian-air-suspending-four-las-vegas-routes-because-its-just-too-hot/

very interesting to hear the high load factors on the routes. They say they hope to reinstate the routes in 2018, possibly just taking off at different times...

737max

Many of people giving their reports of travelling on Norwegian to the US aren't your typical tourist. I suspect there are a lot of people in Ireland and East Coast U.S. visiting Friends and Family and don't care about flying in to JFK or other big airports and aren't conventional tourists.
I think Norwegian can hurt Aer Lingus transatlantic services more than the transatlantic product of other legacy carriers operating from other Western European countries not just because Ireland is within reach of America but because of the type of passenger carried.

bk

xpletiv wrote: »

So even though we have already had the US flights from Delta, American, United coming over to Dublin, AL have never dropped their prices or improved their service. I dont see it happening with Norweigen either, and thats a sad thing; I like AL going over Europe, but I'll never go with them transatlantic again.

I think AL had a solid niche away from the big US airlines.

The US airlines mostly target the US side, with lots of marketing there and a strong brand name, while on the Irish side, AL focused their marketing and obviously have a very well known brand here.

I suspect many Irish people don't even know that the big US airlines fly here and just automatically go to AL directly to buy their tickets! I've seen family do that!

That is why Norwegian are such a threat, it is a European based airline, with a presence here for a few years now and clearly they are focusing a lot of their marketing on this side of the Atlantic. I think people are more aware of their presence here. That makes them a new sort of threat to AL.

xpletiv

Thats basically the only thing that AL have going for themselves; the ignorant irish dont know any better.

There are a LOT more advertisements though that I have seen for Norweigen (I drive past at least 2 billboards with them on it on my way home from work), and really hope it impacts their business to try to force them to lower their margins and improve their service.

BTW; I'd highly recommend Delta over AL if anyone wants a 'frills' transatlantic. Lovely staff (though all quite elderly!!) and very professional with their service, way ahead of AL.

I must admit, Im tempted to give Norweigen a try in the next couple of months on my US trips

jjbrien

Just was checking stewarts runway lenght and it seems a 787 can land there dont know if the terminal has heavy gates. Runway is 11,817 feet (3,602 m). 787 needs 8,326 ft (2,538 m) to land and take off so Stewart could take them depending the the ramp there. If they are planning a 787 out of DUB to New York would it be SWF, JFK OR EWR? They run 787 flights out of JFK and EWR at the moment.

Irishweather

xpletiv wrote: »

The biggest thing I hope for our of Norweigen doing these routes is the changes in Aer Lingus; but since they havent changed anything in years, I doubt they will do much...

I honestly believe that of all the transatlantic flights I have taken, that Aer Lingus is unquestionably the worst. Both going over and back, the service was poor; a zillion announcements on red eye flights to promote things like their duty free, severe lack of attention to passengers or bringing water/drinks to us during the flight (in fact literally twice on the entire outbound flight to NYC), and they still charge through the nose; every time Ive looked at going over to the US, they are always more expensive than their US counterparts, or more expensive than going over to UK/Holland/France. Eg; flight to Orlando was 398 with Delta, a fantastic airline. Same flight with AL was 770. I obviously went Delta.

So even though we have already had the US flights from Delta, American, United coming over to Dublin, AL have never dropped their prices or improved their service. I dont see it happening with Norweigen either, and thats a sad thing; I like AL going over Europe, but I'll never go with them transatlantic again.

+1, Aer Lingus are 2x the price in all classes from what I could see.

1123heavy

There are many things that have to be taken into account when it comes to pricing.

To those suggesting aer lingus should simply drop 50% off their tickets just cos norwegian are around those prices then you really need to look deeper into the many factors.

Also to those saying the Irish don't know of delta, united or American, I think you'll be surprised when you get talking to people how familiar they really are with the airlines. Any times I've spoken to random people about flying TA, they tell me they prefer aer lingus to the old and often grotty service they are given by the American carriers. Of course many people do also view aer lingus as being synonymous with flying (particularly among the older generations who grew up with aer lingus) and they do benefit from that. Another thing not to be underestimated is the power of the brand. Believe it or not that big shamrock on the tail and all that green gets many Irish Americans and it adds to the experience when they're flying to the emerald isle, they won't hesitate in paying a small bit extra for the experience.

john boye

Some good points above. I'm always amused on board by the amount of Americans who just love being welcomed on board as gaeilge by the pilot on the green plane and don't mind paying a bit extra for it. It probably helps that many of them seem to have a strong dislike for their own US airlines. I often find quite a high percentage of pax on the US3 from DUB are Irish.

One thing that still surprises me on LH flights is the amount of people who book code share flights without realizing which airline is operating it. Just recently on an AA flight from LAX-LHR the couple in front of me spent what seemed like an hour complaining that they were expecting it to be a BA flight because they'd booked it on the BA site. I'm seeing it more and more lately.

c6ysaphjvqw41k

This post has been deleted.

LXFlyer

john boye wrote: »

One thing that still surprises me on LH flights is the amount of people who book code share flights without realizing which airline is operating it. Just recently on an AA flight from LAX-LHR the couple in front of me spent what seemed like an hour complaining that they were expecting it to be a BA flight because they'd booked it on the BA site. I'm seeing it more and more lately.

Valid point - many people don't necessarily read the detail....

bk

1123heavy wrote: »

Any times I've spoken to random people about flying TA, they tell me they prefer aer lingus to the old and often grotty service they are given by the American carriers.

Exactly, that is the perception, even if it isn't true any more.

Personally I find AL's TA service quiet tired and old now. Terrible IFE's, etc.

A recent trip I took SFO to JFK on AA was a real eye opener. Incredibly modern, nice service, vastly superior to the Dub - SFO and JFK - Dub that I took on the same trip.

kevinandrew

bk wrote: »

1123heavy wrote: »

Any times I've spoken to random people about flying TA, they tell me they prefer aer lingus to the old and often grotty service they are given by the American carriers.

Exactly, that is the perception, even if it isn't true any more.

Personally I find AL's TA service quiet tired and old now. Terrible IFE's, etc.

A recent trip I took SFO to JFK on AA was a real eye opener. Incredibly modern, nice service, vastly superior to the Dub - SFO and JFK - Dub that I took on the same trip.

Aer Lingus are updating their IFE, the new A330s already feature a new system and increased content. The older aircraft are getting retrofitted too at some point in the near future. 

The SFO-JFK flight you took with AA is part of a highly competitive New York - West Coast transcon market, the airlines on these routes compete on service and often have a completely different product on offer, sometimes better than their transatlantic service. Both American Airlines and JetBlue use brand new A321s with dedicated fleets and updated cabins, JetBlue even designed their Mint service specifically for West Coast service. They all have lie flat seats in premium cabins, wifi throughout and all the extras you'd find on long haul. Even United will now add a three class 777 on the routes. 

It's no surprise you had a good experience, it's likely these routes make far more money for US airlines than some transatlantic services such as those to Ireland or the UK regions.

1123heavy

I'm not sure it's about whether Aer Lingus are overrated or not, it's probably more to do with whether Norwegian will hit a deep enough dent to damage their services long haul.

The underlying factors may not be the same but if you look to London for example, Norwegian have not harmed BA on east coast nor west coast routes. BA are making record profits in fact. Yes Norwegian operate from LGW and BA from LHR, but if the savings are enough, people will travel the small extra distance to LGW no bother (they do it just to go Tenerife for a week so won't have issues if it's a big thing like going stateside). One of the biggest reasons they probably haven't dented BA's market share and profits on the route is BA's partnership with AA, it certainly isn't the BA service I can tell you.

As someone mentioned above, Aer Lingus are renovating their cabins and really I find travelling long haul with them an absolute pleasure. I was dreading my flight to LA but it was top notch in the end. I also love engaging with the Aer Lingus crew, yes there are a few sour faces but for the most part they are great for a nice little chat to make the journey that bit more pleasant. Also, not racist by any stretch of the imagination, but there is something about stepping onto an aircraft and hearing the Irish crew and feeling 'home' in a sense, especially if you've been away from home in the US for quite a while - it is a nice feeling and many people value it.

There really are many reasons as to why Aer Lingus may not be hurt by Norwegian the way people seem to want them to be. However as I said before, I think the best outcome is if they can both coexist side by side without inciting a 'race to the bottom', each being able to sustain themeselves from their own particular market share.

kevinandrew

Nice post 1123heavy, agree entirely. 

I don't buy this idea that everyone in Ireland is ignorant to other airlines, in short haul that may well be the case because its so dominated by EI and FR but in long haul I see the opposite with my own friends and family, Shannon is our nearest airport and Aer Lingus is never, ever considered. It's always United and Continental before that, the reasoning for not choosing Aer Lingus is, "sure they they don't fly from Shannon at all" or "fierce expensive from Dublin aren't they?!" which almost always results in me going into a rant about them being the biggest carrier to US from Ireland by miles. Norwegian as had major press and high level backing, if you haven't heard of them in Ireland you've been living under a rock. 

Aer Lingus has a lot of nostalgia attached to it which is great but it also comes with memories of bad press about how they robbed people blind with air fares. Most don't realise every airline in the world did that, it was a tightly regulated market and competition was non-existent, it wasn't an issue unique to Aer Lingus but to the industry as a whole yet we've been fed these lines from O'Leary and others over the years and it's stuck. Aer Lingus are a rip off yet to the American's and Europeans increasingly choosing Aer Lingus they see them as one of the cheapest carriers in the market and with decades of experience. 

Norwegian are cheaper, obviously but the product is way below the standard, that's not to say it's fine for some and will find it's own market but to say Aer Lingus deserve a beating is unfair. Aer Lingus is the market leader, has seen major expansion, investment and jobs over the past few years, they're success is Ireland's success and while Norwegian and anyone else who expands here is good news, it's only good if it's sustainable. 

Also worth noting Aer Lingus rely less and less on the Irish market, the economic crisis here forced Aer Lingus to stop clinging to its local market and look further afield, making itself attractive to US and European passengers. At one point recently US originating passengers made up the majority of transatlantic flyers with them, with European based passengers also rising, the over reliance on the Irish has diminished slightly.