Landlord Retroactively Charging For Waste Bin Charges After 5 Years.

Outkast_IRE

My other half was given proper notice to her landlord that she intends to leave shortly after a tenancy of 5 years.

The landlord is now saying he is going to deduct 5 years of waste charges from the deposit totaling €300.

Not once in the five years were waste charges mentioned or brought up.
She has about 7 weeks left to serve out her notice.

The landord got very defensive when i questioned the arrangement and i told him i find it highly unusual. In his defensive state he asked was i accusing him of something untoward. I replied i was well within my rights to question deductions from deposits.

The landlord also made some brief statements about cleaning charges and the place needing a lick of paint after she moves out.

After 5 years tenancy its fair to say the place could benifit from painting but it is very clean and has always been kept so.


Need advice on the best way to strengthen our position for what could be an upcoming battle. She is a model tenant with rent paid on time every month for five years, hard not to feel a little angry after being good tenants for five years that someone is considering shafting her.

Sarn

He can't apply a five year waste disposal charge at the end of the tenancy. The rent paid was the rent paid. If he had any issue with waste disposal cost it should have been raised at the start of the tenancy.

In relation to the cleaning and painting, once the place is cleaned to a fair standard and no unusual damage has been done to the paint, that's his problem. You would expect that after a five year tenancy and normal wear and tear that a lick of paint would be required.

If he withholds anything unreasonably (and I consider the above unreasonable) and is not willing to discuss the matter, advise him that a case will be raised with the RTB in relation to unfair retention of deposit. Take lots of pictures before leaving to avoid false claims!

SteoL

Sarn wrote: »

He can't apply a five year waste disposal charge at the end of the tenancy. The rent paid was the rent paid. If he had any issue with waste disposal cost it should have been raised at the start of the tenancy.

In relation to the cleaning and painting, once the place is cleaned to a fair standard and no unusual damage has been done to the paint, that's his problem. You would expect that after a five year tenancy and normal wear and tear that a lick of paint would be required.

If he withholds anything unreasonably (and I consider the above unreasonable) and is not willing to discuss the matter, advise him that a case will be raised with the RTB in relation to unfair retention of deposit. Take lots of pictures before leaving to avoid false claims!

LL could have assumed waste was being paid by tenant. My understanding is tenant is responsible for all utilities including waste. I could be wrong but would be surprised. No reason bins are any different to electricity.

Sarn

It is up to the tenant to arrange for bins to be collected from a house, just like electricity so I can't see how or why the LL would have paid for rubbish collection from the start. The rubbish would not have been collected if they didn't pay.

If it is an apartment the bins are generally included in the annual charge that the LL pays so adding on a refuse charge without informing the tenant from the start would also be wrong.

Ayuntamiento

SteoL wrote: »

LL could have assumed waste was being paid by tenant. My understanding is tenant is responsible for all utilities including waste. I could be wrong but would be surprised. No reason bins are any different to electricity.

Have some common sense. I presume we're talking about an apartment here. Waste charges are part of the management fee. The landlord always pays the management fee.
He can factor it into the monthly rent that he charges, but ultimately it's his responsibility to pay it annually.
He can't decide after 5yrs that he should have been charging more rent every month and try and gouge it from the deposit, which is essentially what he's doing here.

SteoL

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

Have some common sense. I presume we're talking about an apartment here. Waste charges are part of the management fee. The landlord always pays the management fee.
He can factor it into the monthly rent that he charges, but ultimately it's his responsibility to pay it annually.
He can't decide after 5yrs that he should have been charging more rent every month and try and gouge it from the deposit, which is essentially what he's doing here.

Obviously bins are included in an apartment rental. I presumed it was a house Op was talking about. Perhaps Op could clarify so people can give proper advice

Outkast_IRE

To clarify it is property is a house. The landlord does not live in it.

Electricity bills are in the landlords name and equal shares paid by the tenants.

Electricity is paid to the landlord bi-monthly, he informs the tenants of how much they owe and they forward the money on top of their rent. (Never had an issue with this as bills were always reasonable and he would provide a copy if requested)

The bins were always in the landlords name. Assumed they were included in the rent. After 5 years and not being asked to pay its a fair assumption.


An update, i have dug out the rent book and under the "Utilities" section it has two items written as follows
"Electricity - Landlord - Annual "
"Waste - Landlord - Annual"

Now as stated the electiricty was paid bi-monthly as requested. There has not been a mention of a waste bill in 5 years of tenancy.

I am not an unfair guy, he has been a good landlord up to this point, we have been good tenants.

We are meeting in person tomorrow night to flesh this out, i was considering going in with the approach that
1. He has not presented us with a bill for the waste in 5 years - to rertrospecitvely pull it from the deposit it not right.
2. If he would like to present us with an equal portion of the waste bill for this year at the end of the year we would understand & accomodate him.


His argument is based on his word that " this is how he does it with all his tenants" however i think that is simply not good enough - its a highly unusual arrangment and to not present a bill for the waste service for 5 years has established that there was no attempt to inform the tennant of the costs building.

davo10

Op, are you saying that your oh has never paid for bin collection, ever in 5years?

Does it say on the lease that the refuse is included in the rent or does it say that LL paid annually and like the electricity, the tenant reimburses LL ?

Op, 5 years worth of refuse collection is an absolute gift, house tenants always pay for refuse collection.

rawn

I don't think the LL is trying to shaft you, but he has gone about this all the wrong way. Since the lease does specify that the tenant pays the waste bill annually, I would be inclined to pay it. But why the LL waited until she leaves to collect it is beyond me. He should be billing annually.

Outkast_IRE

davo10 wrote: »

Op, are you saying that your oh has never paid for bin collection, ever in 5years?

Does it say on the lease that the refuse is included in the rent or does it say that LL paid annually and like the electricity, the tenant reimburses LL ?

Op, 5 years worth of refuse collection is an absolute gift, house tenants always pay for refuse collection.

She has never been asked to pay, or been made aware that a charge was building up, the conversation with the landlord once notice was handed in was that he " always charges this at the end of the tenancy".


If she was presented with a bill each year she would of course paid it. However a bill was never presented - this is the landlord fault.

How can you expect a tenant to pay for a service which you have not provided a bill for or made them aware of ?

Ray Palmer

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

She has never been asked to pay, or been made aware that a charge was building up, the conversation with the landlord once notice was handed in was that he " always charges this at the end of the tenancy".


If she was presented with a bill each year she would of course paid it. However a bill was never presented - this is the landlord fault.

How can you expect a tenant to pay for a service which you have not provided a bill for or made them aware of ?

Yes agreed it was handled badly but it is a charge the tenant is meant to pay. As a tenant she also had responsibility to figure out who paid the bin charges. Two people at fault but one still has to pay for a service they received.

PucaMama

Landlord is chancing it. Wouldn't let him away with it. 5 years of waste charges would be more than a deposit.

Outkast_IRE

PucaMama wrote: »

Landlord is chancing it. Wouldn't let him away with it. 5 years of waste charges would be more than a deposit.

To be honest, it probably wouldnt be when split amongst an average of 4 tenants. I would reckon 300 is about where it would be

PucaMama

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

To be honest, it probably wouldnt be when split amongst an average of 4 tenants. I would reckon 300 is about where it would be

Considering standing charges where I am would be about 120 a year, then 10 when a bin goes out I think it's still less and id be suspicious about how the landlord came to that figure. Is he getting 300 out of everyone's deposit for some other reason.

Outkast_IRE

PucaMama wrote: »

Considering standing charges where I am would be about 120 a year, then 10 when a bin goes out I think it's still less and id be suspicious about how the landlord came to that figure. Is he getting 300 out of everyone's deposit for some other reason.

The crowd who pick up the waste are around the 280 per year all in. Split that 4 ways and its 70 each. Across 5 years its greater than 300.

I suppose its neither here nor there, i am not disputing that the waste was picked up and that the service was provided. The issue is the retrospective billing and the manner in which it was handled.

According to the rent book he should of billed annually - the bill was never presented to the tenants.

I think the outcome here is that there will need to be some give and take on both sides, the landlord has handled this extremely poorly and i will not accept a retrospective bill for 5 years.

davo10

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

The crowd who pick up the waste are around the 280 per year all in. Split that 4 ways and its 70 each. Across 5 years its greater than 300.

I suppose its neither here nor there, i am not disputing that the waste was picked up and that the service was provided. The issue is the retrospective billing and the manner in which it was handled.

According to the rent book he should of billed annually - the bill was never presented to the tenants.

I think the outcome here is that there will need to be some give and take on both sides, the landlord has handled this extremely poorly and i will not accept a retrospective bill for 5 years.

So you don't think there should be any charge for waste disposal for 5 years? Seriously? It's not retrospective billing, it is billing based on the service provided for the period your oh was there, now he/she is leaving, the bill becomes due just like any other utility.

PucaMama

davo10 wrote: »

So you don't think there should be any charge for waste disposal for 5 years? Seriously? It's not retrospective billing, it is billing based on the service provided for the period your oh was there, now he/she is leaving, the bill becomes due just like any other utility.

I think he shouldn't be allowed go back 5 years if he never made the effort before now.

Rackstar

It's 300 quid. Your OH hasn't had to pay for waste disposal for 5 years. Let the landlord keep it.

davo10

PucaMama wrote: »

I think he shouldn't be allowed go back 5 years if he never made the effort before now.

Landlord takes it up when tenant leaves, when you leave a rental property you get a final bill for electricity/phone/broadband/sky etc up to that date, why is this utility any different? Sure the way the tenant pays it is not the norm, most tenancy agreements require utilities to be in the name of the tenant but if it is in the LLs name, that does not mean the tenant gets free electricity or refuse collection, it means the tenant pays the LL.

It seems that the terms in the rent book for electricity and refuse are very similar, they are paid by the landlord, the op knows that his other half pays the landlord for electricity so it's a bit disingenuous to say that his oh should not pay refuse.

FAILSAFE 00

Its a bit odd why the landlord has all the utilities in his own name.

I can understand the refuge service. I've seen tenants do all sorts of mad stuff to avoid paying for bins. One guy stored black bin bags on his roof and caused a rodent infestation.

However all the other utilities shouldn't be in his name.

I wonder if hes trying to claim he still lives there so he wont have to pay extra tax.

Sarn

davo10 wrote: »

Landlord takes it up when tenant leaves, when you leave a rental property you get a final bill for electricity/phone/broadband/sky etc up to that date, why is this utility any different?

The final bills would normally at most be for a two month period not five years.

Ask for a copy of the bills and arrange to pay the fair share. If he can't provide them then you would be in a position to dispute them.

kirving

davo10 wrote: »

So you don't think there should be any charge for waste disposal for 5 years? Seriously? It's not retrospective billing, it is billing based on the service provided for the period your oh was there, now he/she is leaving, the bill becomes due just like any other utility.

That isn't what he's saying though. It's unreasonable for the bill to be brought up now, when there has been a fair assumption that the waste charges were included in the rent.

FAILSAFE 00

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Its a bit odd why the landlord has all the utilities in his own name.

I can understand the refuge service. I've seen tenants do all sorts of mad stuff to avoid paying for bins. One guy stored black bin bags on his roof and caused a rodent infestation.

However all the other utilities shouldn't be in his name.

I wonder if hes trying to claim he still lives there so he wont have to pay extra tax.

In rooms let seperately house shares its far easier to have bills in the LLs name. It's a royal pain if the gas and esb in particular are in housemates names as when people come and go the account has to be changed over, if someone wants to move out after 6 months then they can have problems if still in contract, new accounts open again and usually taken on by the person moving in and then if they happen to move out again after a few months then more hassle (there is usually a turnover of people like this in many houseshares).

I've lived in both one where we had to have the bills in our name and my last place the bills were in the LLs name, the bills were addressed to him at our house and we simply opened his letters and paid the bills. Having lived both ways the second is far far better.

FAILSAFE 00

Korbin Bald Polygamy wrote: »

In rooms let seperately house shares its far easier to have bills in the LLs name. It's a royal pain if the gas and esb in particular are in housemates names as when people come and go the account has to be changed over, if someone wants to move out after 6 months then they can have problems if still in contract, new accounts open again and usually taken on by the person moving in and then if they happen to move out again after a few months then more hassle (there is usually a turnover of people like this in many houseshares).

I've lived in both one where we had to have the bills in our name and my last place the bills were in the LLs name, the bills were addressed to him at our house and we simply opened his letters and paid the bills. Having lived both ways the second is far far better.

I am thinking from a landlords perspective.

You can be left high and dry with massive bills if the utilities are in your own name versus the tenants.

From the landlords perspective If a new tenant moves in its just a simple phone call to give utility providers the new tenants details. One less headache. Let the tenants sort themselves out.

From my own experience of house sharing we always paid our own bills. Although I am aware many landlords leave the bills in their own name which I think is a horrible business practice.

PucaMama

davo10 wrote: »

Landlord takes it up when tenant leaves, when you leave a rental property you get a final bill for electricity/phone/broadband/sky etc up to that date, why is this utility any different? Sure the way the tenant pays it is not the norm, most tenancy agreements require utilities to be in the name of the tenant but if it is in the LLs name, that does not mean the tenant gets free electricity or refuse collection, it means the tenant pays the LL.

It seems that the terms in the rent book for electricity and refuse are very similar, they are paid by the landlord, the op knows that his other half pays the landlord for electricity so it's a bit disingenuous to say that his oh should not pay refuse.

Yes there's a final electricity bill but that's because you have been paying them all along. He should have told her when she started that's how he was going to charge her. I'd bring it to the prtb. Because it's unfair how he's done it.

davo10

PucaMama wrote: »

Yes there's a final electricity bill but that's because you have been paying them all along. He should have told her when she started that's how he was going to charge her. I'd bring it to the prtb. Because it's unfair how he's done it.

5 years of refuse collection for €300 is not unfair, €60 per year, are you for real? The terms are the same for electricity as for refuse, the op's oh knows he/she had to pay electricity, stands to reason that refuse is the same. Electrical bills are much higher and must be paid to sevice provider monthly/bimonthly, refuse is a yearly bill and the deposit will usually cover it. As a previous poster has explained, when renting rooms individually many tenants do not want the bills in their name and then have to collect from people sharing the property. <mod snip>

PucaMama

davo10 wrote: »

5 years of refuse collection for €300 is not unfair, €60 per year, are you for real? The terms are the same for electricity as for refuse, the op's oh knows he/she had to pay electricity, stands to reason that refuse is the same. Electrical bills are much higher and must be paid to sevice provider monthly/bimonthly, refuse is a yearly bill and the deposit will usually cover it. As a previous poster has explained, when renting rooms individually many tenants do not want the bills in their name and then have to collect from people sharing the property. <mod snip>

I have never had refuse payed for out of a deposit. This is not normal. Also it's not really a yearly bill. Landlord should have said it when she moved in.

rawn

PucaMama wrote: »

I have never had refuse payed for out of a deposit. This is not normal. Also it's not really a yearly bill. Landlord should have said it when she moved in.

It was stated in the lease.

Pkiernan

The RTB will side with the tenant.
Ask LL if he wants to go through an RTB appeal for the sake of €300.

MouseTail

The refuse fee is due and fair. Remiss of the LL not to collect annually, but that doesn't mean he cannot collect arrears. The tenant knew they were responsible.
Of concern is the fee for cleaning and painting. If the place is left clear and clean, bar wear and tear (and it would be reasonable to paint a tenanted place every 5 years), there should be no other deductions.

Dial Hard

Outkast_IRE wrote:

I think the outcome here is that there will need to be some give and take on both sides, the landlord has handled this extremely poorly and i will not accept a retrospective bill for 5 years.

Do you actually live there or is it your OH's place? It's very unclear from your posts.

If it's the latter I'd be very careful about how you speak to the landlord as he'd be well within his rights to refuse to deal with you at all.