Landlord Retroactively Charging For Waste Bin Charges After 5 Years.

PucaMama

rawn wrote: »

It was stated in the lease.

In the rent book it said annual, landlord.

GreenFolder2

The contract specifically states annual billing. No invoice was presented and no payment was sought in any form for 5 years.

Under that contact the only bill collectable would be this year's.

davo10

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Under that contact the only bill collectable would be this year's.

I'd be interested to read the law you are basing this on. Effectively you are saying annual fees must be collected at the end of the year term and if they aren't, they no longer apply. A lot of debtors and indeed creditors would like to know how you came up with that one.

The op is informed in the rent book there is an annual fee for refuse, the land lord is giving him/her this bill now that tenancy is coming to an end.

I wouldn't be so certain an RTB case would go well for the op, the rent book states there is an annual fee, the op is therefore informed that a fee applies. I think it's a bit <mod snip> to expect free refuse collection for 5 years and then complain when the fee is applied at the end of the tenancy when it is clearly stated in the rent book that there is be a charge to the tenant.

GreenFolder2

An unspecified annual fee that was never presented. The use of the term annual implies a billing cycle. If no invoice is presented, no contact whatsoever is made, it is highly unreasonable to expect payment.

The landlord agreed in the lease to collect it annually, not twice a decade.

<mod snip>

davo10

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

An unspecified annual fee that was never presented.

It is specified that the fee is due in the rent book, the op has confirmed that the €300 tallies with what would be owed for 5 years.

Again, I'd like to see a link to confirm that an annual fee must be collected at the end of the year term or it no longer applies.

davo10

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

The landlord agreed in the lease to collect it annually, not twice a decade.

.

The landlord agreed in the lease to collect electricity once a year not six times per year, is the op complaining about this? No, the rent book informs that the tenant pays the land lord for electricity and waste,

GreenFolder2

davo10 wrote: »

The landlord agreed in the lease to collect electricity once a year not six times per year, is the op complaining about this? No, the rent book informs that the tenant pays the land lord for electricity and waste,

They stated that in the contract that they would collect it annually. They did just that for the electricity.

They didn't bother collecting the bin charges as per the agreement.

It's not a case where the tenant didn't pay the bill and it accumulated. No bill was ever presented.

BabySlam

There are a lot of questions in my mind - is this a registered tenancy or is the landlord incorrectly operating the rentaroom scheme? Assuming the tenancy is registered then the landlord may have got tax relief from payment of the refuse bills in his name....will he show you that his accounts included the tenants as debtors for the refuse bills?
And do the accounts show his income from passing on the refuse charge?

In any event ask for a receipt for any sums withheld/ invoice for same.

However, there is probably reasonableness in expecting the tenant to pay for disposing of their own rubbish. This means you might agree to pay some sum, but taking account of the fact that you were not free to source a cheaper refuse disposal arrangement than that entered into by the landlord.

It comes down to what you can peacefully negotiate with the landlord, or whether you wish to pursue it more formally, and sometimes it is good to draw a line and move on.

mugsymugsy

As others have said along the same lines. Ask for the invoice for each year and calculations on how it is pro rata / divided up per resident. Say that you are more than happy to pay / have it deducted under those conditions. Back it up in writing as well as verbal in case it goes to prtb.

GreenFolder2

It's still very unreasonable to expect payment for uninvoiced services from 5 years ago.

In the commercial would you would be waiting a very long time for payment of an invoice out of the blue after that length of time.

It's perfectly reasonable for any customer to expect that invoices will be sent as per an agreed schedule and in a reasonable time frame after the charge has accrued.

It's not reasonable to send a bill 5 years late.

Can you imagine if a phone company sent you a bill from 2011 that had never been presented before ?!

All the landlord had to do was collect the bill annually, as per the agreement in the rent book. They didn't do that.

Outkast_IRE

Its interesting reading the varied responses and opinions here.

The approach i will take during the meeting will be the following.

1. The Utilites section in the rent book states two items

A. Electricity - Landlord - Bi-Monthly (I rechecked the book it did say bi-monthly)

B. Waste - Landlord - Annually

The reason this went unoticed for so long was that 6 months into the tenancy the landlord stopped signing the rent book and it was agreed by both parties that the regular bank transfer to his account was acceptable as evidence.

2. The landlord did not present a bill annually for the waste. He did not bring it up or mention it. He charged water charges when they were applicable but never a mention of waste at any point in 5 years.

3 . In the interests of fairness she is willing to offer to pay her equal portion of this years waste charge when the bill is presented & as an offer of goodwill she will cover an equal portion of last years waste charges.

Outside of this we do not find it acceptable to be presented with a charge for 5 years with no mention of it during that period. Like any reasonable person she would of paid it yearly to stop it building up to a sum of this size.

Its not the amount that concerns me its the unreasonable approach he has taken with the whole issue, whilst also discussing the deposit he slipped in comments about painting and cleaning.

I will update late tomorrow evening after the meeting and hopefully an amicable resolution is found.

davo10

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Its interesting reading the varied responses and opinions here.

The approach i will take during the meeting will be the following.

1. The Utilites section in the rent book states two items

A. Electricity - Landlord - Bi-Monthly (I rechecked the book it did say bi-monthly)

B. Waste - Landlord - Annually

The reason this went unoticed for so long was that 6 months into the tenancy the landlord stopped signing the rent book and it was agreed by both parties that the regular bank transfer to his account was acceptable as evidence.

2. The landlord did not present a bill annually for the waste. He did not bring it up or mention it. He charged water charges when they were applicable but never a mention of waste at any point in 5 years.

3 . In the interests of fairness she is willing to offer to pay her equal portion of this years waste charge when the bill is presented & as an offer of goodwill she will cover an equal portion of last years waste charges.

Outside of this we do not find it acceptable to be presented with a charge for 5 years with no mention of it during that period. Like any reasonable person she would of paid it yearly to stop it building up to a sum of this size.

Its not the amount that concerns me its the unreasonable approach he has taken with the whole issue, whilst also discussing the deposit he slipped in comments about painting and cleaning.

I will update late tomorrow evening after the meeting and hopefully an amicable resolution is found.

So you acknowledge that in the rent book it says the tenant pays the landlord for waste, you acknowledge that your girlfriend has used the service for waste disposal, you acknowledge that €300 is a fair reflection of what the cost would be over 5 years, you acknowledge that she should pay for the last year and even the year before, but you don't acknowledge that she owes anything beyond that? Why, just because the LL is presenting the bill at the end of the tenancy? She used the service and at €60 per year, that is more than fair. I don't know why you are telling us about the approach "you will take", you're not the tenant, most LLs would tell you to PFO, and deal only with the tenant. Op there is a good chance you will do more harm than good.

As a LL I'd tell your oh to go ahead and complain to the RTB, the €300 would be deducted from the deposit and I would show the RTB the rent book where it states that the tenant pays for waste. I wouldn't fear the judgement at all, worst comes to worst the RTB would rule on a compromise and I might have to refund some of the money, in six to twelve months time when the case is adjudicated on.

dilallio

Have any other tenants moved out in the last 5 years - if so, were they billed for Refuse Charges?

Outkast_IRE

dilallio wrote: »

Have any other tenants moved out in the last 5 years - if so, were they billed for Refuse Charges?

Some of the tenants pay a regular charge for refuse to the landlord. Im not sure of the details of their arrangement, but it is certainly different.

Outkast_IRE

davo10 wrote: »

So you acknowledge that in the rent book it says the tenant pays the landlord for waste, you acknowledge that your girlfriend has used the service for waste disposal, you acknowledge that €300 is a fair reflection of what the cost would be over 5 years, you acknowledge that she should pay for the last year and even the year before, but you don't acknowledge that she owes anything beyond that? Why, just because the LL is presenting the bill at the end of the tenancy? She used the service and at €60 per year, that is more than fair. I don't know why you are telling us about the approach "you will take", you're not the tenant, most LLs would tell you to PFO, and deal only with the tenant. Op there is a good chance you will do more harm than good.

As a LL I'd tell your oh to go ahead and complain to the RTB, the €300 would be deducted from the deposit and I would show the RTB the rent book where it states that the tenant pays for waste. I wouldn't fear the judgement at all, worst comes to worst the RTB would rule on a compromise and I might have to refund some of the money, in six to twelve months time when the case is adjudicated on.

You quite nicely ignore any responsibilty for the landlord to produce the bill regularily to the tennant. You also ignore the implied threats of taking money to clean and paint from the deposit. The landlord couldnt actually remember what was written into the rent book with regards to utilities, he seems to make it up as he goes along.

Have no issue going to the PRTB. Its just a sad way to end what has been a very amicable tenancy for all concerned up to this point. In my opinion having a tenant for 5 years who keeps the place in pristine condition is a tough thing to find and am a little disheartened for it to be going down this route. Once moved out the place will need at most a lick of paint, and the paint is just to freshen it up.

This country full of amateur Landlords who make up and bend the rules to suit as they go. It is unprofessional to not bill a tenant for 5 years. Quite happy to go all the way with this but will try to comprimise first.

FAILSAFE 00

There is fault on both sides.

Personally at the end of year 1 if the landlord did not send me the bill for refuge collection I would have contacted him to arrange payment.

There appears to be negligence on both sides.

I'd arrange to repay the landlord over a short time frame. Maybe 3 months and suggest the landlord takes only the 1st months repayment from the deposit.

April 73

To me it's pretty straightforward. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of how the LL has presented the refuse bill - the tenant has received the service for 5 years and should pay for it. Forget the RTB for this - there are much more important disputes going through it.

Repainting costs after the normal wear & tear of a 5 year tenancy cannot be deducted from the deposit.

Pay the refuse charges & tell the LL he can't charge for repainting. If he does then go to RTB.

SteoL

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

There is fault on both sides.

Personally at the end of year 1 if the landlord did not send me the bill for refuge collection I would have contacted him to arrange payment.

There appears to be negligence on both sides.

I'd arrange to repay the landlord over a short time frame. Maybe 3 months and suggest the landlord takes only the 1st months repayment from the deposit.

Was just going to post same. Tenant was aware of refuse charge since tenancy began so should have chased LL for Bill when one wasn't presented.

davo10

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Some of the tenants pay a regular charge for refuse to the landlord. Im not sure of the details of their arrangement, but it is certainly different.

Why didn't she ask? she knew she had to pay it.

Brego888

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Some of the tenants pay a regular charge for refuse to the landlord. Im not sure of the details of their arrangement, but it is certainly different.

Ah come on now OP, initially I was on your side but with that kind of evidence of knowledge you can't plead ignorance to the fact that refuse had to be paid for.

TheChizler

OP what does the actual lease say about utilities and refuse? IMO the rent book has no bearing on this situation, it's basically a receipt with a field for the amount paid for refuse; that amount could be €0. It's proof of what you paid, not what was agreed to be paid. If the lease says something specific about refuse that should override all else.

PucaMama

Brego888 wrote: »

Ah come on now OP, initially I was on your side but with that kind of evidence of knowledge you can't plead ignorance to the fact that refuse had to be paid for.

It's up to the landlord to sort out what has to be paid for not the tenant to guess they have to pay based on what others pay.

rawn

I don't understand why the other tenants were paying the bill for the refuse but your partner wasn't? Did it not come up in conversation with the other tenants? Is it possible that the LL is only finding out now that she hasn't been paying?

davo10

rawn wrote: »

I don't understand why the other tenants were paying the bill for the refuse but your partner wasn't? Did it not come up in conversation with the other tenants? Is it possible that the LL is only finding out now that she hasn't been paying?

If the op knows the others are paying, it's fair to assume it did come up in conversation and the op is now hoping to dodge the bill.

davo10

PucaMama wrote: »

It's up to the landlord to sort out what has to be paid for not the tenant to guess they have to pay based on what others pay.

It's the end of the tenancy, the LL is now sorting out what the tenant owes, the op confirmed that the amount being charged is the right amount, he just isn't happy that it has been left until the end of the tenancy, even though he knew the other tenants were paying it.

TheDoc

dilallio wrote: »

Have any other tenants moved out in the last 5 years - if so, were they billed for Refuse Charges?

haha 100% not. And if a landlord came wanting they would be told where to go with themselves.

I've never left utilities in landlords names, always taking them into my own. But if the landlord was covering the waste charges and did not advise the tenant of a future payment or arrears on exit, that is literally their tough ****. The landlord in this case seemed to be able to explicitly outline how the utilities were working.

<mod snip>

OP I'd be telling your GF to get tough and tell that landlord to return the entire deposit in full, or open a PTRB case.

And whatever about the tenant using that facility and owing it is fair enough, but not when a landlord pulls this **** and is looking to take €300 in a sum payment. Come on, that is get the boat territory.

TheDoc

davo10 wrote: »

It's the end of the tenancy, the LL is now sorting out what the tenant owes, the op confirmed that the amount being charged is the right amount, he just isn't happy that it has been left until the end of the tenancy, even though he knew the other tenants were paying it.

If the OP was ten years in situ, and the landlord was saying he/she was owed €3000 for refuse, that's cool is it?

LL already has one of those weird things in place for electricity. What if he/she came looking for a few grand for electricity?

The issue here isn't the tenant receiving the service and not paying. The issue is this landlord being totally out of their depth, and not having their house in order.
<mod snip>
The fact they are looking for deductions for painting and cleaning, I'm not surprised the OP wants his GF to dig her heels in on it.

Eimee90

Could be wrong here but if this wasnt discussed prior to moving in, id be very annoyed to be told this

davo10

<quote snipped, mod>

10 years would be €600 at the op's rate, not €3000. I think the issue here is that the landlord is renting the rooms individually so none of tenants would be inclined to have utilities in their name. Therefore landlord keeps utilities in his name and each tenant pays him their share.

If you rented an individual room in a house with people you didn't know, would you volunteer to put the utilities in your name and then collect the money from the other tenants? What happens if one of those tenants shags off leaving you with the bill in your name?

The landlord would seem to be giving the op 2 months notice of the bill, not demanding it today. It could equally apply to a person who knows other tenants are paying, knows that it outlines payment in the rent book, knows that it is building up but doesn't ask for the bill. So people on both sides.

By all means take a case to the RTB but the rent book says the waste bill is paid by tenant to landlord and during the 6-12 months waiting for the judgement the LL has the money.

davo10

elsa21 wrote: »

Could be wrong here but if this wasnt discussed prior to moving in, id be very annoyed to be told this

Op confirmed it is in the terms on the rent book.