Brexit and Trump. Do you even have a clue why?

Slydice

The poll does NOT track usernames. Please do vote.

So, for some people, the votes for Brexit and Trump have been...

• a big shock
• not a big shock but not unsurprising
• not even a surprise

and it's all like.. all depending on the who, what where when etc

I wonder have many of us.. here on boards I guess.. thought about how much we know or think we know etc

I was thinking about a 1-5 rating but went with the options I picked to give more try and get clarity from the votes.

Go with Atari Jaguar if none of the options suit

Poll runs for 2 weeks, results will display after the poll closes

The_Valeyard

Says poll does not track in bold letters.....



Now convinced it tracks.

Harry Palmr

Trump succeeded (in the electoral collage vote at least) as he saw the way to win was to turn the machine gun of identity politics back on those who have been the subject of same for decades. "Sick and tired of the blacks, Latinos and women and their advocates screaming for quotas and preferential rights? Vote for the rich white guy (and not the rich white woman)!"

Brilliant really!

kneemos

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Trump succeeded (in the electoral collage vote at least) as he saw the way to win was to turn the machine gun of identity politics back on those who have been the subject of same for decades. "Sick and tired of the blacks, Latinos and women and their advocates screaming for quotas and preferential rights? Vote for the rich white guy (and not the rich white woman)!"

Brilliant really!

Very much doubt Trump had any sort of plan,or may not even have wanted to win.
Trump was trump and somehow appealed to enough morons.The Brits were never crazy about the EU.

Slydice

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Says poll does not track in bold letters.....



Now convinced it tracks.

lol The poll does _NOT_ track usernames. I set that bit up correctly.


The results are showing up already though. I thought the settings I picked the were a 14 day limit and that it set the results to show after the limit.

They 14 day thing is working anyway..

This poll will close on 17-12-2016 at 13:58

ClovenHoof

The world is changing. Globalization has failed. Ordinary people despise legacy politicians and mass media.

It's wonderful to observe the screams of death by the Left and Right. Good riddance.

Harry Palmr

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Trump succeeded (in the electoral collage vote at least) as he saw the way to win was to turn the machine gun of identity politics back on those who have been the subject of same for decades. "Sick and tired of the blacks, Latinos and women and their advocates screaming for quotas and preferential rights? Vote for the rich white guy (and not the rich white woman)!"

Brilliant really!

Thank you so much for giving a perfect example of the thought processes that helped Trump win.. You nailed the impersonation.

stimpson

Because idiots are allowed to vote.

BabyE

stimpson wrote: »

Because idiots are allowed to vote.

Such an intellectually weak argument. Life and people are complex, these issues aren't as clean cut as you are lead to believe. Only an idiot would attribute the success of Trump and Brexit on something as simplistic as ''idiots are allowed to vote''.

myshirt

stimpson wrote: »

Because idiots are allowed to vote.

While you might joke about it, unfortunately that is actually true. As much as 50% of Americans are below average intelligence.

stimpson

BabyE wrote: »

Such an intellectually weak argument. Life and people are complex, these issues aren't as clean cut as you are lead to believe. Only an idiot would attribute the success of Trump and Brexit on something as simplistic as ''idiots are allowed to vote''.

Working man votes for billionaire thinking he'll look after his interests. What could possibly go wrong?

BabyE

Well it's not so much that people aren't idiots, but most people can't grasp the complexity of politics and all it entails, so the majority voting for Clinton or against Brexit were no more informed than a Trump or Brexiter supporter in my opinion. I do put weight into the opinions of people far more intelligent than myself such as Noam Chomsky but you can't follow these people blindly either.

myshirt

BabyE wrote: »

Such an intellectually weak argument. Life and people are complex, these issues aren't as clean cut as you are lead to believe. Only an idiot would attribute the success of Trump and Brexit on something as simplistic as ''idiots are allowed to vote''.

It is true. That is democracy. I have the same amount of votes as the guy off his head on glue and rolling around the tarmac with his underwear outside his pants.

If you asked people what they wanted 100 years ago, they'd have said 'faster horses '. Some people are just plainly idiots, especially in America. America as the wealthiest nation in the world should be ashamed really with the lack of investment in public education. While you might hear some guy cheerfully saying 'its all good in the hood man', you and I both know deep down that there are in fact a lot of socioeconomic problems in the hood.

Cortina_MK_IV

The lizard people are revolting.

BabyE

myshirt wrote: »

It is true. That is democracy. I have the same amount of votes as the guy off his head on glue and rolling around the tarmac with his underwear outside his pants.

If you asked people what they wanted 100 years ago, they'd have said 'faster horses '. Some people are just plainly idiots, especially in America. America as the wealthiest nation in the world should be ashamed really with the lack of investment in public education. While you might hear some guy cheerfully saying 'its all good in the hood man', you and I both know deep down that there are in fact a lot of socioeconomic problems in the hood.

But intelligent people voted for Trump and for Brexit.

0byme75341jo28

myshirt wrote: »

While you might joke about it, unfortunately that is actually true. As much as 50% of Americans are below average intelligence.

That's the whole point of having an "average intelligence" :rolleyes:

myshirt

Alana Fancy Walker wrote: »

That's the whole point of having an "average intelligence" :rolleyes:

Below the median then!

0byme75341jo28

Surely an intelligent person would be able to see the merits of both Hilary/Trump and Brexit/Europe, and then make an informed decision on which side they support. To say only stupid people voted for any of those options is ridiculous, they all have advantages/disadvantages which can change depending on your situation.

BabyE

Yeah like if someone just doesn't support the European project, they see no reason why a continent with diverse language and cultures has any reason to be part of an economic and political union and they vote for Brexit, why are their opinions relegated to being uneducated and uninformed. Who are you to tell them that they are wrong? Why are they wrong? What's wrong with them not wanting external forces dictating their national policy? You can't just impose your own world view on others.

pauliebdub

Combination of many things helped Trump and Brexit.

For Trump:
A weak opponent who few liked or trusted and has been a career politician for decades and had a lot of baggage.
White working class people in places like Pennsylvania and Ohio feeling ignored and left behind.
A fixation by the Democrats with identity politics.

For Brexit.
Similar reasons for why Trump won. Working class people in northern England and Wales feeling left behind and not seeing tangible benefits of EU membership.
Constant negative stories about the EU and related issues like mass immigration from the likes of the sun and the daily mail.
EU being seen as an elitist bureaucracy run by sneering dictatorial appointees like Junker and Tusk.
A once powerful county unsure of its place in the modern world.

stimpson

BabyE wrote: »

Yeah like if someone just doesn't support the European project, they see no reason why a continent with diverse language and cultures has any reason to be part of an economic and political union and they vote for Brexit, why are their opinions relegated to being uneducated and uninformed. Who are you to tell them that they are wrong? Why are they wrong? What's wrong with them not wanting external forces dictating their national policy? You can't just impose your own world view on others.

People voted for Brexit because they were told that immigrants were the root of all their problems. That they could leave the EU and keep access to the single market. That there would be £350m a week extra to spend on the NHS. All lies but they were only too happy to blame their problems on Johnny Foreigner.

I remember an interview with a Leave voter who said she wanted to stay in erode but voted to leave because she wanted to stick it to the government. How stupid can you possibly be?

Academic

myshirt wrote: »

While you might joke about it, unfortunately that is actually true. As much as 50% of Americans are below average intelligence.

“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” — George Carlin

Donald Trump

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The world is changing. Globalization has failed. Ordinary people despise legacy politicians and mass media.

It's wonderful to observe the screams of death by the Left and Right. Good riddence.

No it hasn't.
Stupid people have just forgotten that things they take for granted were not always there or automatically available
Smart people know these things but also are generally wealthier. They will still have relatively easy access to travel/visas etc. And they can get more control and become generally richer due to a change of regime. Change always brings opportunities to new people

"People hate globalization - Sent from my iPhone"


(Oh and people have secret pussy grabbing fetishes)

Grayson

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The world is changing. Globalization has failed. Ordinary people despise legacy politicians and mass media.

It's wonderful to observe the screams of death by the Left and Right. Good riddence.

Globalisation hasn't failed. Immigration to the UK has had a huge positive effect on the economy. The same goes for the US and even here. The problem is that the positive effects are not seen evenly everywhere. Certain areas like London and Dublin boom and others don't. That's bad governance. In any boom the government should make sure that through investment that other areas aren't left behind.

That's been the problem in both the UK and US. They let areas stagnate. In the US it's the mid west and in the UK it's the north.

The vote in the UK wasn't against the EU but rather a vote against the establishment. Through good campaigning by the leave side the EU was seen as a symptom of the ills they faced. Remember in the UK that although the referendum passed, UKIP are still not a political force in the traditional sense. They haven't ever got an MP elected. In the referendum there were towns which have had nothing but benefit from the EU and have next to no immigrants who voted for brexit in the referendum.

In the US Trump is disliked even more than Hilary was. He lost the popular vote. Even amongst the people who voted for him a large amount didn't like him. However there are millions who voted for him. They voted not because they liked his racist and sexist rhetoric but in spite of it. Sure there are some that are racist and sexist but the majority aren't. They feel left behind and weren't so much voting for him as voting against the political establishment who they feel have forgotten them.

Plus there's the lies. Apparently nearly 20% of "liberal" stories that are floated on facebook are wrong but nearly twice as many "Conservative" stories are also false. The majority of people aren't like the people who post here in political threads. They don't follow the news assiduously. They have lives to live, kids to raise and don't have the time or even inclination to read through news sites the way we do. They pick up bits and pieces here and there and especially through social media. They're also not far right or left on the political spectrum. They still want to vote correctly and make a smart decision, unfortunately the news they are presented with are wrong.

The fact is that Trump and UKIP are not incredibly popular. They succeeded through capturing the vote of people who don't actually like them but are willing to give a chance to someone else but also want to deny those already in power.

Jimoslimos

Alana Fancy Walker wrote: »

Surely an intelligent person would be able to see the merits of both Hilary/Trump and Brexit/Europe, and then make an informed decision on which side they support. To say only stupid people voted for any of those options is ridiculous, they all have advantages/disadvantages which can change depending on your situation.

In US politics a large part of the problem is that the electorate is clearly polarised between Rep and Dem. That meant no matter what Trump did or said he could count on a significant rump of loyal supporters. Hilary too, but her problem was soft Democratic voters drifting away - as is usually the case with the incumbent president being a member of the same party.

Undecided voters, the ones you'd imagine to be more likely to make an informed decision, did anything but and voted for Trump. Quite frankly, if you were undecided after hearing lie after lie and ignoring the sh1te Trump came out with you're probably more of an idiot than those firmly in either camp.

Similar applies with Brexit, but also I think that it didn't help that UKIP didn't have proper representation in Westminister. It meant many of their claims went largely unchallenged by the media. I guarantee that if UKIP MPs behaved in a similar fashion to their (out-of-sight, out-of-mind) MEPs they wouldn't have lasted this long. Instead we have the appalling prospect of the next government being the same bumbling Conservative one whose main opposition could be ultra-right Tories UKIP.

paleoperson

Donald Trump wrote: »

No it hasn't.
Stupid people have just forgotten that things they take for granted were not always there or automatically available
Smart people know these things but also are generally wealthier. They will still have relatively easy access to travel/visas etc. And they can get more control and become generally richer due to a change of regime. Change always brings opportunities to new people

"People hate globalization - Sent from my iPhone"


(Oh and people have secret pussy grabbing fetishes)

Shut up about "stupid people" and "smart people", you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Globalization has failed.

Jimoslimos

paleoperson wrote: »

Shut up about "stupid people" and "smart people", you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Globalization has failed.

Hehe...it hasn't now has it?

suicide_circus

On the whole I think it's a positive. The current status quo in western contries has gone sour.

All over the world the gulf between rich and poor deepens.

I have less job security, poorer work/life balance, poorer chance of home ownership and raising a family than my father had. This is not progress for the common man.

Will Trump or Brexit be the solution to turning this around? Almost certainly not but it may be a start.

We have been sold a lie.

kneemos

paleoperson wrote: »

Shut up about "stupid people" and "smart people", you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Globalization has failed.

Do you think the yanks are going to pay twice as much for stuff cos it's made in America?

NIMAN

Brexit and Trump won because there are a lot more (a) ill-informed and (b) racist people than ever let on. They are silent but when they get to the ballot box they can do damage.

To hear people on the radio the day after the Brexit result saying "I didn't know what I was voting for" is not surprising. You can say that thats only a single person out of a large group, but I'd say there are more stupid people like this around than we think. They have no interest in learning policies, and what their vote might mean, they just are easily swayed by the best talker on the campaign. The Facebook generation too play a big part in these types of results imho. The internet is full of idiots who will believe anything they are told, whether its true or not.

I'd say a large number of Trump voters actually believed he was going to build that wall, kick out every illegal immigrant, get every US company to return home, and to put Clinton in prison. If you believe that sort of stuff, excuse me, but you are thick.

TheOven

paleoperson wrote: »

Shut up about "stupid people" and "smart people", you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Globalization has failed.

Globalisation can't fail. As technology has advanced people have been more connected to a wider area. Even when people lived in tribes they have connected and fought against each other.

What country can you say has shut itself off from the world and is better for it?