Brexit and Trump. Do you even have a clue why?

dfx-

They are two odd countries both believing they are exceptional, who can stand out on their own. There's two parties in Britain neither of whom put out a strong pro-EU message riddled with Euro-sceptics. The pro-EU party in England and Wales are coming out of an overwhelming general election defeat where they are blamed as coalition politics are alien to the British establishment.

In America, there's not much that can be said for one half of the electorate who actually think a businessman is a good choice for president and the richer the better - not just Trump but that idea prevailed for Romney as well. With enough money, people can be persuaded to vote for anything though you would've hoped that the sheer volume of people (120m) would dilute the danger.

What would be generally disconcerting is if Germany was to fall to it as well as that would be a major turnaround.

paleoperson

TheOven wrote: »

Globalisation can't fail. As technology has advanced people have been more connected to a wider area. Even when people lived in tribes they have connected and fought against each other.

What country can you say has shut itself off from the world and is better for it?

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not talking about countries cutting themselves off from the world, I'm talking about globalization taking over the world and destroying it. Making countries dependent on other ones, rewarding people who run to another country instead of trying to help their own ones, tearing apart peoples and families, destroying cultures and communities, making the workplace a race to the bottom with the winners as the people who will abuse themselves the most or waste the most time working.

foxtrot101

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Similar applies with Brexit, but also I think that it didn't help that UKIP didn't have proper representation in Westminister. It meant many of their claims went largely unchallenged by the media.

A large part of that media have been anti-EU for decades - The Telegraph, Daily Mail, Daily Express and The Sun.

osmiumartist

Grayson wrote: »

The fact is that Trump and UKIP are not incredibly popular. They succeeded through capturing the vote of people who don't actually like them but are willing to give a chance to someone else but also want to deny those already in power.

The UKIP really puts paid to the idea that people are brainwashed by advertising campaigns and can't form their own opinion. They knew they wanted Brexit. They also knew they didn't want UKIP. It's impossible therefore to say UKIP and their dodgy campaigning had anything to do with it really as nobody believed or supported them in the first place.

TheOven

paleoperson wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not talking about countries cutting themselves off from the world, I'm talking about globalization taking over the world and destroying it. Making countries dependent on other ones, rewarding people who run to another country instead of trying to help their own ones, tearing apart peoples and families, destroying cultures and communities, making the workplace a race to the bottom with the winners as the people who will abuse themselves the most or waste the most time working.

Right, ok. Not cut off from the rest of the world but keeping completely separate from each other. Good luck with that fantasy.

You can't even spell the thing you hate without using a foreign spelling. We're talking about globalisation as the non jew version right? It can be difficult to tell with some people.

Capt'n Midnight

Tomorrow Italy will throw a spanner in the works with their referendum.

And Austria will be electing a Nazi.

Then France will put Le Pen in the driving seat for the Brexit negotiations.

osmiumartist

TheOven wrote: »

We're talking about globalisation as the non jew version right? It can be difficult to tell with some people.

Oh, here's where we're all supposed to say he's an anti-semite so we can't possibly agree with him, isn't it?
Not working this time I'm afraid. You're not on a Fox phone in.

Harry Palmr

Angry people were kicking against the (establishment) pricks.

It's not as if an absolute majority have to either, to send the wrecking ball across the room. All you need is enough and right now there are enough - enough people on stagnant wages in jobs with no career path and no chance of owning their own homes unless the last living parent has the good grace to drop dead without raking up big bills. Enough people who think that in the end they'd sooner stem the numbers of immigrants esp those who are "taking their jobs". It doesn't matter whether the justifications are right or not - only that enough people think like that to matter. That such a cohort exists in it's current size is really damning of the status-quo protecting centre-ground who have failed to deliver improved living standards in the last decade and appear quite incapable to wresting the initiative from tin pot demigods and tax dodging global corporations who really don't give a **** so long as they move capital and profits freely.

Grayson

osmiumartist wrote: »

The UKIP really puts paid to the idea that people are brainwashed by advertising campaigns and can't form their own opinion. They knew they wanted Brexit. They also knew they didn't want UKIP. It's impossible therefore to say UKIP and their dodgy campaigning had anything to do with it really as nobody believed or supported them in the first place.

UKIP also had little to do with the main leave campaign. It owed its success more to Gove, Johnson etc...

dfx-

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Angry people were kicking against the (establishment) pricks.

It's not as if an absolute majority have to either, to send the wrecking ball across the room. All you need is enough and right now there are enough - enough people on stagnant wages in jobs with no career path and no chance of owning their own homes unless the last living parent has the good grace to drop dead without raking up big bills. Enough people who think that in the end they'd sooner stem the numbers of immigrants esp those who are "taking their jobs". It doesn't matter whether the justifications are right or not - only that enough people think like that to matter. That such a cohort exists in it's current size is really damning of the status-quo protecting centre-ground who have failed to deliver improved living standards in the last decade and appear quite incapable to wresting the initiative from tin pot demigods and tax dodging global corporations who really don't give a **** so long as they move capital and profits freely.

it does matter when the result is the wrecking ball flying around the room taking everyone out because of it.

Earthhorse

On the one hand it's quite simple: the world is in the midst of an extended global recession and people are tired of a hypocritical establishment that hasn't done enough for them.

On the other hand it's more complex involving a rural urban divide, a generation feeling left behind, distrust of mainstream media, fake news, antiquated electoral systems and much, much more.

Either way I wasn't surprised by the results and think I have a good understanding of how they came about.

TheOven

osmiumartist wrote: »

Oh, here's where we're all supposed to say he's an anti-semite so we can't possibly agree with him, isn't it?
Not working this time I'm afraid. You're not on a Fox phone in.

Didn't know were were skipping straight to the whiny little bitch victim part. I'm sorry if people refer to globalism instead of jews to appear not anti Semitic. Either go back to your safe space or stop complaining people think you might have fleas because you sleep in the same bed with the dogs.

Not making stupid claims about globalisation "failing" would be a good start.

Rainman16

Liberalism has failed ordinary people

paleoperson

TheOven wrote: »

Didn't know were were skipping straight to the whiny little bitch victim part. I'm sorry if people refer to globalism instead of jews to appear not anti Semitic. Either go back to your safe space or stop complaining people think you might have fleas because you sleep in the same bed with the dogs.

Not making stupid claims about globalisation "failing" would be a good start.

You obviously have no ability to engage in any sort of adult discussion. You don't even know what globalization means.

Your modus operandi, which I've seen a lot of on this ridiculous board, is to just create an outlandish strawman and accuse the other person of being of that view. For example your idea that being anti-globalization means cutting a country off from the world completely. There's no substance in that, there's no discussion there. It's not talking about politics, it's bull****.

Special Circumstances

Trump won because the alternative was Hillary.

"I know you're angry, vote for me and I'll change things" vs "vote for me because I'm worth it, you deplorable sh1tbags"

TheOven

paleoperson wrote: »

You obviously have no ability to engage in any sort of adult discussion. You don't even know what globalization means.

Your modus operandi, which I've seen a lot of on this ridiculous board, is to just create an outlandish strawman and accuse the other person of being of that view. For example your idea that being anti-globalization means cutting a country off from the world completely. There's no substance in that, there's no discussion there. It's not talking about politics, it's bull****.

Probably shouldn't start off with stupid claims that something as wide ranging and inevitable at globalism has failed. Can't even come up with one successful country without it.

osmiumartist

TheOven wrote: »

Didn't know were were skipping straight to the whiny little bitch victim part.

Someone isn't happy their "call them an anti-semite" debating tactic has been exposed for the lame garbage it is, are they?

Manic Moran

"Way of life" and pride, I think. I have seen a lot of folks saying that Trump or Brexit folks were voting against their own best interests. Were they? Are you sure that what you think are their own best interests are what they think are their own best interests? Or that they actually -are- their own worst interests? We have a long history of ascribing our own logic to other folks. "Russia won't like the damage to their economy, they'll yield." Well, the Russian economy's not doing that well, how is that working out for Ukraine. Maybe they think their national pride is more important to them than Western trade. Similarly maybe Brexit voters did not feel that they could be bribed into loyalty by promises of economic benefit. They would like the benefit, but on their own terms, not Brussels' or Berlin's.

Trump voters seem to have had a more obvious problem: They are suffering. They saw one side that seemed to care nothing for their situation, or their way of life. Talking about raising the minimum wage is wonderful, for places where people are earning a wage of any sort to raise. But the established politicians seemed to pay nothing more than lip service to the plight of rural America. Whatever Trump's bombast, from their perspective it can't be any worse than continuing. And, besides, he seems to at least align with those voters on various issues varying from state rights, a traditional view on law and order, and independence.

Are they right? Maybe not. Is important to understand it? Yes.

I love the "Idiots voting for a billionaire" line spewed out since the election like it means anything. I don't get why you would expect people to dislike his billions that came from private industry more than the Clintons' $111m that came from public life?

A politician would be hung and quartered if they amassed such wealth in Ireland. We criticize every world leader who gets rich but Clinton gets a free pass. Their charity foundation spanks $3m of donations on their daughter's wedding but no, it's Trump that's out of touch.

Trump won for many reasons but racism and sexism certainly weren't the main ones. If you think they were, stop reading the Guardian's political coverage. Sexism just isn't a big voting issue outside of crappy editorials.. Merkel, May, Daenerys, Cersei etc.

DukeOfTheSharp

It's simple really: people are ill-informed and incredibly stupid when it comes to the reality of politics, and the damage their decisions can do. Western culture has gotten to a point where there's barely any culpability anymore; institutional child molestation, rape, murder, embezzlement - they're all crimes which rarely see consequence. So why should people even consider their decisions having impact? It's not like they'll ever feel it. Until they do, and then they're shocked.

In the case of Brexit, the most Googled terms after the referendum were; 'what is the EU?' and 'what is Brexit?', which pretty much tells you the kind of people you're dealing with when it came to that referendum. Racism played a massive role in that too, UKIP tapped into the traditional British xenophobia that comes from reverse colonisation, and they managed to pull off a lie about 350 million a week they could keep for the NHS. Now, UKIP is dissolving from the inside, the key players in this vote have left politics and chances are they'll move abroad so they'll never have to deal with the consequences of their actions. Also, let's not forget those a-hole voters who cast their vote in 'protest'...because that's how votes work.

As for Trump? I mean, it's the same thing really: white people who felt hard done by (but weren't because the figures on white voters in America show that many who voted for Trump were in the $55,000+ annual salary bracket from what I can remember) don't like black, hispanic or middle eastern people, or basically anyone vaguely brown, and they also don't like 'political correctness' or including every citizens' interests. Coupled with that, the Democrats were crippled by Sanders, who didn't come out in immediate support for Hillary and let his toxic followers grow more and more angry, with many voting for Trump or casting a useless 'third party' vote in 'protest'. Sanders never would have won, he's old, Jewish and a Socialist, and all three of those are things that the white, upper-middle class American voter wouldn't have gone near. Then you've the stories of white women crying because they voted for Trump...as if they had no choice because Hillary was a 'warmonger' and was 'evil'...as opposed to the rich tangerine who has brought on actual nazis to his staff, and a lad to works in Goldman Sachs, who's on record for saying 'if we have nukes, why don't we just use them?'.

There's a lot more nuance to this, but the bottom line is that as much as we might want to say the people who voted for these trainwrecks aren't stupid; they are. They towed the line of "Up yours, got mine" and acted selfishly. Now Germany and France are going that route too, and that's freaking terrifying. This is the damage active and willing ignorance and stupidity can do, we're seeing it in real-time. I worry about this when it comes to Ireland too: the last election seen the return of a joint government made up of two of the most reviled parties available. They've actively pushed back against EU aid when it came to the Apple back-tax issue, but refuse to fight back against ill-conceived water charges (let's face it, the infrastructure was never there for something of the scale of Irish Water) and compounding the issue are the useless jackholes of the AAAPBP smugly acting as if 'people power' will change anything...when people power put this government into power to begin with. People don't know what they want, they need a strong political party to take them by the scruff of the neck and drag them into a future that benefits everyone, even if a percentage of those people don't see the benefits. UKIP won because they had a loudmouth racist a-hole and every other party are limp-wristed and incapable of taking control, the loudest person was heard and tapped into the worst of humanity. Trump won because the Democrats are the same; they don't fight hard for what's right. Germany and France? Same deal, different environment. We can dress it up all we want, but people, collectively, are dumb as bricks and half as useful, they don't think about nuance when it comes to politics, it's all 'what about me?' mindsets.

DukeOfTheSharp

DukeOfTheSharp wrote: »

It's simple really: people are ill-informed and incredibly stupid when it comes to the reality of politics, and the damage their decisions can do. Western culture has gotten to a point where there's barely any culpability anymore; institutional child molestation, rape, murder, embezzlement - they're all crimes which rarely see consequence. So why should people even consider their decisions having impact? It's not like they'll ever feel it. Until they do, and then they're shocked.

In the case of Brexit, the most Googled terms after the referendum were; 'what is the EU?' and 'what is Brexit?', which pretty much tells you the kind of people you're dealing with when it came to that referendum. Racism played a massive role in that too, UKIP tapped into the traditional British xenophobia that comes from reverse colonisation, and they managed to pull off a lie about 350 million a week they could keep for the NHS. Now, UKIP is dissolving from the inside, the key players in this vote have left politics and chances are they'll move abroad so they'll never have to deal with the consequences of their actions. Also, let's not forget those a-hole voters who cast their vote in 'protest'...because that's how votes work.

As for Trump? I mean, it's the same thing really: white people who felt hard done by (but weren't because the figures on white voters in America show that many who voted for Trump were in the $55,000+ annual salary bracket from what I can remember) don't like black, hispanic or middle eastern people, or basically anyone vaguely brown, and they also don't like 'political correctness' or including every citizens' interests. Coupled with that, the Democrats were crippled by Sanders, who didn't come out in immediate support for Hillary and let his toxic followers grow more and more angry, with many voting for Trump or casting a useless 'third party' vote in 'protest'. Sanders never would have won, he's old, Jewish and a Socialist, and all three of those are things that the white, upper-middle class American voter wouldn't have gone near. Then you've the stories of white women crying because they voted for Trump...as if they had no choice because Hillary was a 'warmonger' and was 'evil'...as opposed to the rich tangerine who has brought on actual nazis to his staff, and a lad to works in Goldman Sachs, who's on record for saying 'if we have nukes, why don't we just use them?'.

There's a lot more nuance to this, but the bottom line is that as much as we might want to say the people who voted for these trainwrecks aren't stupid; they are. They towed the line of "Up yours, got mine" and acted selfishly. Now Germany and France are going that route too, and that's freaking terrifying. This is the damage active and willing ignorance and stupidity can do, we're seeing it in real-time. I worry about this when it comes to Ireland too: the last election seen the return of a joint government made up of two of the most reviled parties available. They've actively pushed back against EU aid when it came to the Apple back-tax issue, but refuse to fight back against ill-conceived water charges (let's face it, the infrastructure was never there for something of the scale of Irish Water) and compounding the issue are the useless jackholes of the AAAPBP smugly acting as if 'people power' will change anything...when people power put this government into power to begin with. People don't know what they want, they need a strong political party to take them by the scruff of the neck and drag them into a future that benefits everyone, even if a percentage of those people don't see the benefits. UKIP won because they had a loudmouth racist a-hole and every other party are limp-wristed and incapable of taking control, the loudest person was heard and tapped into the worst of humanity. Trump won because the Democrats are the same; they don't fight hard for what's right. Germany and France? Same deal, different environment. We can dress it up all we want, but people, collectively, are dumb as bricks and half as useful, they don't think about nuance when it comes to politics, it's all 'what about me?' mindsets.

On scale of 1-10, how factually correct would you say your post is?

323

myshirt wrote: »

While you might joke about it, unfortunately that is actually true. As much as 50% of Americans are below average intelligence.

Is that not Australia?

Lived in the USA for a number of years and never thought that, below average education, defiantly.

osmiumartist

323 wrote: »

Lived in the USA for a number of years and never thought that, below average education, defiantly.

This is comedy gold.

Minderbinder

DukeOfTheSharp wrote: »

In the case of Brexit, the most Googled terms after the referendum were; 'what is the EU?' and 'what is Brexit?', which pretty much tells you the kind of people you're dealing with when it came to that referendum..

Ate you talking about the most googled in the UK? Or everywhere? There's a big difference.

MrPudding

BabyE wrote: »

Such an intellectually weak argument. Life and people are complex, these issues aren't as clean cut as you are lead to believe. Only an idiot would attribute the success of Trump and Brexit on something as simplistic as ''idiots are allowed to vote''.

I suppose it depends on your definition of stupid. I volunteered on a vote remain desk in the run-up to the referendum, and I spoke to a lot of people, and whilst I know that some intelligent people vote leave there was an awful lot of stupid. I met one guy (not on the desk, getting a tyre changed) that was voting leave because "there were too many pakkis". On the day after the recent High Court judgement, a Radio 4 reporter was pushed by a man when she asked what he thought of the judgement. He was apoplectic with rage, not at the judgement, but that we were still in the EU, he thought we had already left.

I am sorry, but it can't be denied, there was a huge amount of stupid on the leave side. People were simply unwilling and/or unable to carry out even the most cursory of fact checking.They simply sucked up all the lies and misinformation. Many of them had, and have, no idea of the consequences or potential consequences.

They are pretty much fact proof and arguably delusional. Tell them the banker will leave if they loose passporting and the response is basically, "let them, they are all w@ankers anyway". Point out that a pretty large portion of the UK's economy depends on this industry and you get a blank look.

I'm sorry, but is there another word that stupid for people that do what they have done? I fully accept that they have been left behind, that they have not benefitted from globalisation and that their government has let them down, badly, but torching the economy as a protest is the very definition of stupid.

MrP

MrPudding

Minderbinder wrote: »

Ate you talking about the most googled in the UK? Or everywhere? There's a big difference.

From what I recall it was UK.

EDIT: Here you go.

MrP

A Little Pony

stimpson wrote: »

BabyE wrote: »

Such an intellectually weak argument. Life and people are complex, these issues aren't as clean cut as you are lead to believe. Only an idiot would attribute the success of Trump and Brexit on something as simplistic as ''idiots are allowed to vote''.

Working man votes for billionaire thinking he'll look after his interests. What could possibly go wrong?

He already has done, he saved over a thousand jobs and he isn't President yet.

A Little Pony

MrPudding wrote: »

BabyE wrote: »

Such an intellectually weak argument. Life and people are complex, these issues aren't as clean cut as you are lead to believe. Only an idiot would attribute the success of Trump and Brexit on something as simplistic as ''idiots are allowed to vote''.

I suppose it depends on your definition of stupid. I volunteered on a vote remain desk in the run-up to the referendum, and I spoke to a lot of people, and whilst I know that some intelligent people vote leave there was an awful lot of stupid. I met one guy (not on the desk, getting a tyre changed) that was voting leave because "there were too many pakkis". On the day after the recent High Court judgement, a Radio 4 reporter was pushed by a man when she asked what he thought of the judgement. He was apoplectic with rage, not at the judgement, but that we were still in the EU, he thought we had already left.

I am sorry, but it can't be denied, there was a huge amount of stupid on the leave side. People were simply unwilling and/or unable to carry out even the most cursory of fact checking.They simply sucked up all the lies and misinformation. Many of them had, and have, no idea of the consequences or potential consequences.

They are pretty much fact proof and arguably delusional. Tell them the banker will leave if they loose passporting and the response is basically, "let them, they are all w@ankers anyway". Point out that a pretty large portion of the UK's economy depends on this industry and you get a blank look.

I'm sorry, but is there another word that stupid for people that do what they have done? I fully accept that they have been left behind, that they have not benefitted from globalisation and that their government has let them down, badly, but torching the economy as a protest is the very definition of stupid.

MrP

Yeah because remaining in the EU isn't stupid. :woot:

MrPudding

A Little Pony wrote: »

Yeah because remaining in the EU isn't stupid. :woot:

<yawn> I guess that too is simply your opinion and, as is usual, you don't have any evidence to show how leaving the EU is better for the country than staying...?

MrP

Dirty Dingus McGee

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The world is changing. Globalization has failed. Ordinary people despise legacy politicians and mass media.

It's wonderful to observe the screams of death by the Left and Right. Good riddance.

Globalisation hasn't failed and it will never fail because people like have goods and services available to them at an affordable price and this really isn't possible without globalisation.