Dublin congestion charge - would it help? [see post #7]

magicbastarder

Last Stop wrote: »

Navan rail line
Lucan Luas
Finglas Luas
Metrolink
Dart Expansion
Buying additional rail fleet

However, there are even quicker projects such as building new stations like Pelletstown or simply opening the already built Kissoge station.

i was more getting at the meaning of 'reducing cars without removing cars'. it was not clear what you meant.

cgcsb

Congestion charging is long term ineffective. The cost gets absorbed and it becomes a class barrier. The Oslo approach has proven a better approach I.e. remove all but a handful of parking spaces.

If it were me I'd ban cars from the area between capel/George's street and Gardener st/Westland row and between Stephen's green and Parnell square. Remove the get rid of the multi storeys within that area and replace with housing. Then between this area and the NCR and Grand canal, take out parking spaces and replace with bigger footpaths cycle lanes and planting. Get rid of street clutter, poles and signage etc.

I would say after bus connects and metrolink a big urban realm scheme is needed

ncounties

cgcsb wrote: »

Congestion charging is long term ineffective. The cost gets absorbed and it becomes a class barrier. The Oslo approach has proven a better approach I.e. remove all but a handful of parking spaces.

If it were me I'd ban cars from the area between capel/George's street and Gardener st/Westland row and between Stephen's green and Parnell square. Remove the get rid of the multi storeys within that area and replace with housing. Then between this area and the NCR and Grand canal, take out parking spaces and replace with bigger footpaths cycle lanes and planting. Get rid of street clutter, poles and signage etc.

I would say after bus connects and metrolink a big urban realm scheme is needed

On this approach, you could make all minor roads (except for cycle lanes) cobbled, so it's physically uncomfortable to drive around the city centre.

AlmightyCushion

ncounties wrote: »

On this approach, you could make all minor roads (except for cycle lanes) cobbled, so it's physically uncomfortable to drive around the city centre.

Cobbles are a disaster. They're a pain in the arse to cycle on or use a wheelchair on. Even walking on them for some people is difficult. I injured my foot and walking on flat surfaces was a little sore, however walking on things like cobbles was so much worse.

Last Stop

Last Stop wrote: »

There are loads of examples that would significantly reduce the number of cars on the roads around Dublin without necessarily removing cars.

You can significantly reduce the number of cars without removing cars?
What are you smoking? Unless you're being pedantic about the difference between "remove and reduce", in which case........cop yourself on. He's obvioulsy nottalking about removing ALL cars.

Idbatterim

I think there should be a one euro roll to cross the canals and tax the benefit of free workplace parking in city centre. Ringfence the money for Dublin infrastructure...

Midlife crisis man

Dublin should have a congestion charge and also massive fines for a) single occupancy vehicles and b) vehicles using the bus lanes.

Del2005

MJohnston wrote: »

I posted similar before in a ****ehouse of a thread called "M50 Congestion" but perhaps it is more appropriate here.

The simplest way to state the cycle of car abuse we're trapped in is:

1. Before you remove cars, car drivers need better transport options.
2. Before you can add better transport options, you need to remove cars from the roads.

Now, some will say that Metro or Luas are the solutions, but any beyond those already proposed are 10-plus-years solutions, at the very best. We need solutions that will start working within months, not decades. What we do have coming sooner is BusConnects, which is something that absolutely needs car reduction methods attached to be a success. There are also DART upgrades, but they're basically all capacity changes, rather than drastically expanding the reach of public transport.

Dublin is also heavily reliant upon on-road public transport, there is no escaping this anytime before those (still cancellable) Metro trains start accepting passengers.

So, if you come back to those 2 steps above, it's pretty clear that it's physically impossible to make Dublin public transport better without removing cars. But it's completely possible to remove cars before transport is better, in order to make it better.

That's the only pragmatic short-to-medium term way out of that destructive cycle.

What I think needs to happen, and could happen with a strong will, within the next year or two:
1. Phased removal of non-residential permit-based street parking within Dublin City centre.
2. Actually go ahead with the introduction of levies on private office car parks, and increase levies on MSCPs.
3. Legalisation of e-scooters, with an invitation to tender for rental firms like Lime/Bird/etc.
4. Upgrades to Dublin Bikes and Bleeperbikes to see the introduction of e-Bike fleets alongside the manual pedal cycles.
5. Expansion of the Dublin Bikes station network.
6. Rapid and increased spending on segregated cycling/scooter infrastructure throughout the city.
7. Acceleration of the BusConnects schedule where possible.
8. Immediate, accelerated funding of Metrolink.
9. Massively increased pedestrianisation throughout Dublin city centre.
10. Automated, widespread enforcement of bus lanes and gates throughout the city (and country).

You can't do this without first providing a viable alternative to the car. Why don't we have park and ride at junctions on the motorways coming into our cities? Because if you implement your solutions without providing a viable option to park your car then people commuting long distances will just get onto the existing public transport at the terminus or early stops and the public transport will be full so that regular passengers won't be able to get on. Look at the Luas when it expended and the problems with people trying to get on after the first few stops, people dropped their cars for the Luas yet regular users suffered.

E scooters are being restricted in most cities and we already have a safer option, the humble bicycle, which is perfectly suited for most of our cities.

Last Stop

spacetweek wrote: »

On their own, they wouldn’t reduce car traffic, and certainly not in the centre.
If you built all those but without car restrictions, there’s be a huge increase in rail use but the same amount of car traffic. We want less traffic overall.

Pelletstown wont make a difference to anywhere other than Ashtown area and only if Maynooth is electrified. Nobody at all lives near Kishogue.

Can’t say I agree with your logic.
While I appreciate the theory that you need to encourage people out of their cars, car restrictions isn’t the only option.
Providing viable alternatives which are quicker than using the car is one such alternative.
Park and ride is extremely successful even without placing restrictions on cars closer to the city.

I fail to follow how if there is a huge increase in rail use there would be the same amount of car traffic. Yes a large portion would be switching from buses or other PT but quite a few would switch from cars meaning less cars on the roads. While Dublin continues to grow, if the above projects were built, the supply would surpass the increase in demand meaning that the modal shift would result in less cars on the road.

The suggestion that building a station only serves that area ignores the fact that you reduce the need for people in that area to use their cars. This means less cars on the road. If this was repeated in each area car usage would drop significantly. As I have said this is a very quick and easy to implement solution.

Last Stop

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Navan rail line - at least 5 years away
Lucan Luas - at least 10 years away
Finglas Luas - at least 10 years away
Metrolink - at least 8 years away
Dart Expansion - at least 5 years away
Buying additional rail fleet - at least 2 years away

Did I say these were quick or short term measures? I think you’ll find I said that they are long term solutions.

Last Stop

Deleted User wrote: »

You can significantly reduce the number of cars without removing cars?
What are you smoking? Unless you're being pedantic about the difference between "remove and reduce", in which case........cop yourself on. He's obvioulsy nottalking about removing ALL cars.

My understanding (and based on what I’ve read from the posters previous posts) of the term remove was a proposal to ban them. Hence I said you can reduce the number of cars without banning them.

Carawaystick

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

These are all great ideas but lol at the above. Never going to happen, Ireland hates cyclists and eScooters seem to be loathed just as much. All it would take is someone to call Joe Duffy complaining about them and they'd be banned immediately, if that hasn't happened already. Someone got 5 penalty points and a €300 fine for being on an eScooter a few days ago. Points on his driving licence!
.

Driving without insurance is 5 points. I pay insurance on my car parked at home when I cycle to work. I pay extra cos I have to cover uninsured people, so I'v very little sympathy for yer man convicted of driving uninsured on his electric motor scooter.

markpb

Carawaystick wrote: »

Driving without insurance is 5 points. I pay insurance on my car parked at home when I cycle to work. I pay extra cos I have to cover uninsured people, so I'v very little sympathy for yer man convicted of driving uninsured on his electric motor scooter.

You hold that opinion despite the fact that a) it’s not possible to insure them, b) the risk of them causing an accident or injury requiring insurance is tiny?

Thelonious Monk

markpb wrote: »

You hold that opinion despite the fact that a) it’s not possible to insure them, b) the risk of them causing an accident or injury requiring insurance is tiny?

This is why they will never be accepted in Dublin, too many clowns giving out on Joe Duffy etc.

abcabc123123

cgcsb wrote: »

If it were me I'd ban cars from the area between capel/George's street and Gardener st/Westland row and between Stephen's green and Parnell square. Remove the get rid of the multi storeys within that area and replace with housing.

Agree with this.

For the area inside the canal/North Circular that isn't included in the above - I'd divide it into several zones and make it impossible for cars to drive directly between zones. Force them to exit the zones using the North Circular or canal roads, travel using them, and then re-enter the relevant zone. That'd reduce traffic in the city core significantly.