Should Ireland have conscription?

Widdershins

Del2005 wrote: »

The answer to every problem is that it's someone else's responsibility.
It's not the Armies, or any other organisations, job to teach discipline and endurance. It's the responsibility of the parent(s) or guardian(s) to teach these things to children.

Unfortunately some of them don't do that.

Widdershins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Subletting parenting to the government sounds great. What could go wrong?

In other news, I hate the Nanny State.

These would be eighteen year olds and upwards..

steddyeddy

Yea it's not raising your kids. It's providing life long skills to eighteen year old teenagers.

Del2005

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah jaysus. Why do people always roll out these two. Not every eejit needs to "code". Sorry nerds, but other than wanting to be a professional programmer there is no *need* for the average person to know how to "code". If you want to learn it yourself, by all means go ahead. Plenty of free resources online. Same for Mandarin. Learn it youself if it's that useful and come back to let us know how you got on. The only Chinese you'll ever need to know is how to say "#2 spicy chickenballs with rice". That is assuming the Red invasion doesn't happen!

So learning to strip an assault rifle is a useful skill in a country where it's impossible to get a licence for a shotgun that can take 5 cartridges.

At least teaching coding, or even basic maths, or Mandarin might be useful for someone later in life, I don't see much use for being trained to kill others in later life.

wakka12

Maybe some kind of military service yes. But i think it goes without saying that nobody should ever be forced to have to go to war and put their own life in danger or harm another person

Wanderer78

wakka12 wrote: »

Maybe some kind of military service yes. But i think it goes without saying that nobody should ever be forced to have to go to war and put their own life in danger or harm another person

wars should just be prevented in the first place, no human should experience them

El_Duderino 09

Widdershins wrote:

These would be eighteen year olds and upwards..

Oh yes. No need to parent children. Warehouse them until they finish school and retrospectively sublet parenting to the government. Then blame the government of anything goes wrong.

Conscription is ridiculous. It's parents job to teach discipline etc.

TheDoc

The One Doctor wrote: »

If the government forced me to become a fighter pilot, I'd reluctantly accept.

Otherwise fuck that. No sane person should want to learn to kill people as a trade.

And yes, I'm aware of the hypocrisy.

Be some eye opener if it transpired you were brilliant at it!

kunst nugget

I wouldn't ask the generation below me to do something I never would have ever wanted to do in a million years myself. The only way I'd ever agree to conscription is that everyone in the country under the age of 60 would have to do at least one year's service. Might soften the cough of some of the people I see calling for people younger than themselves to be forced into military service.

Nothing worse than someone in their thirties or forties giving out about the youth of today and demanding conscription. We had it handy as fook as teenagers…

Dick phelan

No i don't agree with forcing adults to give up a year of their lives doing something they hate.

wakka12

Wanderer78 wrote: »

wars should just be prevented in the first place, no human should experience them

True but there are plenty of people willing to go to war , for whatever reason ,so forcing those who don't want to isn't really necessary or ethical

Widdershins

kunst nugget wrote: »

I wouldn't ask the generation below me to do something I never would have ever wanted to do in a million years myself. The only way I'd ever agree to conscription is that everyone in the country under the age of 60 would have to do at least one year's service. Might soften the cough of some of the people I see calling for people younger than themselves to be forced into military service.

Nothing worse than someone in their thirties or forties giving out about the youth of today and demanding conscription. We had it handy as fook as teenagers…

I'm sure anyone whose family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it. At 18 you're not likely to have as many obstacles to national service. I think it would do a lot of older people a lot of good, too. I'd have said the same when I was 18.

osarusan

The ones it would be aimed at - the ones who supposedly need toughening up, or straightening out - are the ones who'd get out of it with a sob story and a dodgy doctor's cert.

wakka12

Del2005 wrote: »

So learning to strip an assault rifle is a useful skill in a country where it's impossible to get a licence for a shotgun that can take 5 cartridges.

At least teaching coding, or even basic maths, or Mandarin might be useful for someone later in life, I don't see much use for being trained to kill others in later life.

You learn more than that in the army, team work, orienteering, hand to hand defense, discipline , physical fitness benefits

steddyeddy

osarusan wrote: »

The ones it would be aimed at - the ones who need toughening up, or straightening out - are the ones who'd get out of it with a sob story and a dodgy doctor's cert.

Indeed. Trump would be a good example of that. Some people would be far to sensitive for the army.

kunst nugget

Widdershins wrote: »

I'm sure anyone whose family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it. At 18 you're not likely to have as many obstacles to national service. I think it would do a lot of older people a lot of good, too. I'd have said the same when I was 18.

I wouldn't have wanted to do it then and wouldn't want to do it now. If people are so concerned about life skills being taught, make DIY compulsory in school, don't stick kids in the military! It's bloody ridiculous… The kids today are arseholes? I was an arsehole when I was that age too. I didn't need to be put in the fooking army to grow up - life helped me along with that all by itself. Bollocks to conscription is what I say!

Widdershins

kunst nugget wrote: »

I wouldn't have wanted to do it then and wouldn't want to do it now. If people are so concerned about life skills being taught, make DIY compulsory in school, don't stick kids in the military! It's bloody ridiculous… The kids today are arseholes? I was an arsehole when I was that age too. I didn't need to be put in the fooking army to grow up - life helped me along with that all by itself. Bollocks to conscription is what I say!

Well there were other suggestions apart from military service. DIY is a good idea. Although most schools have some kind of home economics and a lot of people still don't have a clue how to cook when they leave school.

CrabRevolution

If, as people are claiming, being in the army is such a universal, silver bullet solution to discipline, self worth, leadership, confidence, mental well being etc. why do you hear so much about veteran mental health issues, homelessness, suicide, unemployment?

Why do so many ex servicemen need charities and support services?

If the benefits of conscription are so obvious and simple, why is it increasingly being abolished in many countries? Wouldn't there be a hugely visible difference between countries with and without it?

Take Latvia and Estonia for example. One has conscription, the other doesn't. Is there any notion out there that Estonians are much more disciplined, better at team work, confident etc?

Wanderer78

wakka12 wrote: »

True but there are plenty of people willing to go to war , for whatever reason ,so forcing those who don't want to isn't really necessary or ethical

we need to look at why wars occur, imperial nations such as america are major culprits in this, and its up to all of us to pull them up on this. i dont believe in conscription either, i do truly believe it dehumanizes people.

Widdershins

CrabRevolution wrote: »

If, as people are claiming, being in the army is such a universal, silver bullet solution to discipline, self worth, leadership, confidence, mental well being etc. why do you hear so much about veteran mental health issues, homelessness, suicide, unemployment?

Why do so many ex servicemen need charities and support services?

It's almost inevitable where someone has been through very serious fighting. And the supports aren't always there for them once they finish their army careers. A big factor would be mental health. Psychological health and suitability weren't even properly taken into account when training conscripts or sending any soldiers into combat until quite recently but now it is.

Wanderer78

Widdershins wrote: »

It's almost inevitable where someone has been through very serious fighting. And the supports aren't always there for them once they finish their army careers. A big factor would be mental health. Psychological health and suitability weren't even properly taken into account when training conscripts or sending any soldiers into combat until quite recently but now it is.

armys still dont give a ****e about soldiers, never have, never will. plenty of 'suitable' people being sent to war and coming home with ptsd etc.

Widdershins

Wanderer78 wrote: »

armys still dont give a ****e about soldiers, never have, never will. plenty of 'suitable' people being sent to war and coming home with ptsd etc.

Speaking from experience?

Wanderer78

Widdershins wrote: »

Speaking from experience?

speaking from watching a few documentaries, i do know some ex army folks though, some really are very badly damaged from their experiences. many struggling with mental health and addiction issues. bullying would be commonplace in the armed forces. im trying to find a documentary that was aired on bbc a couple of years ago about ptsd. very disturbing to see some of the young lads coming home from afghanistan. unfortunately one of the participants of the documentary committed suicide. was deeply tormented from his experiences. ministry of defence didnt give a **** about him when he arrived home. family were at their wits end trying to help him, but unfortunately all their efforts failed. very disturbing documentary. im sure procedures have vastly improved to try prevent these issues and to help those that do become affected, but as i said, no human should experience war.

steddyeddy

I think Ireland's middle class would struggle to cope with discipline and regiment.

El_Duderino 09

Widdershins wrote:

I'm sure anyone whose family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it.

You mean anyone without a family or a job?

Widdershins wrote:

At 18 you're not likely to have as many obstacles to national service. I think it would do a lot of older people a lot of good, too. I'd have said the same when I was 18.

How was your tour in the military? You must have at least joined one of the international versions of the Peace Corps, right? Or is it something that would benefit others in lots of ways, but you don't need to brush up on any of those things?

GreenFolder2

No. What would the point be?!

El_Duderino 09

CrabRevolution wrote:

If, as people are claiming, being in the army is such a universal, silver bullet solution to discipline, self worth, leadership, confidence, mental well being etc. why do you hear so much about veteran mental health issues, homelessness, suicide, unemployment?

Well to be fair that's usually after serving in a war coupled with becoming institutionalised and removed from civilian life. That's not what anyone here us proposing so I wouldn't worry about those particular problems.

Widdershins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You mean anyone without a family or a job?


How was your tour in the military? You must have at least joined one of the international versions of the Peace Corps, right? Or is it something that would benefit others in lots of ways, but you don't need to brush up on any of those things?

Anyone with a family and a job would presumably be excluded, amongst other people deemed unsuitable for various reason.

I'm unclear on what you're asking. Sarcasm doesn't translate well in text, I find. I've no intention of sharing my life story with a complete stranger on a site full of strangers.
There's always room for improvement but as I previously said I'd have been happy to be conscripted for a year's service when I was eighteen. If I was conscripted now, it would turn my life upside down.

El_Duderino 09

Widdershins wrote:

I'm unclear on what you're asking. Sarcasm doesn't translate well in text, I find. I've no intention of sharing my life story with a complete stranger on a site full of strangers. There's always room for improvement but as I previously said I'd have been happy to be conscripted for a year's service when I was eighteen. If I was conscripted now, it would turn my life upside down.

It was sarcasm but I don't want your life story. It's clear from what you said that you haven't served even though you reckon you and most other people would gladly serve. You created a context for conscripts which automatically excluded yourself (family or job).

If you really wanted to serve, you would have. Plenty of people with a family who actually want to serve, do so.

Widdershins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It was sarcasm but I don't want your life story. It's clear from what you said that you haven't served even though you reckon you and most other people would gladly serve. You created a context for conscripts which automatically excluded yourself (family or job).

If you really wanted to serve, you would have. Plenty of people with a family who actually want to serve, do so.

No..I don't think most others would gladly serve..I have no idea what most people would do. Maybe you're mixing it up with my comment that I think it would be beneficial for lots of people. It's not only military service being mooted, it's about other forms of service, too.

Nor did I mention a family or job. I wouldn't be suitable for me, or I wouldn't be suitable for it, now.

Anyone with family who decides to serve has assessed the viability of that career choice and decided it's possible. We can't assume it's possible for everyone so there would have to be exemptions like that.

Your psychic powers are a bit out of tune, I'm afraid..

Manic Moran

Frosty McGiggleshaft wrote: »

Military service, no.

Civil, emergency and community service, yes.

This.

As a member of a volunteer military, I very much would like to know that the person whose life I'm depending on actually volunteered for the position.
That said, the US's position of 'learn a trade' is actually not a bad thing. Not everyone only learns to kill in the Army. We do everything, from repairing vehicles and airplanes through cooking to construction and demolition. These are useful skills in the civilian world.

A number of European countries require "something." Military is an option, but a number of non-military options are also available. As another alternative, Greece has (or at least, had, when I was younger) a 'scale' of options. You could do a short amount of time on a ship at sea (about 18 months), two years in the Army, six years in the police force, or whatever. My uncle took his 2 years in the Air Force. He learned to maintain helicopters, and ended up in civilian employment in charge of aircraft procurement for Olympic Airways. I don't think he was the worse off for his time in uniform.

Wanderer78

Manic Moran wrote: »

This.

As a member of a volunteer military, I very much would like to know that the person whose life I'm depending on actually volunteered for the position.
That said, the US's position of 'learn a trade' is actually not a bad thing. Not everyone only learns to kill in the Army. We do everything, from repairing vehicles and airplanes through cooking to construction and demolition. These are useful skills in the civilian world.

A number of European countries require "something." Military is an option, but a number of non-military options are also available. As another alternative, Greece has (or at least, had, when I was younger) a 'scale' of options. You could do a short amount of time on a ship at sea (about 18 months), two years in the Army, six years in the police force, or whatever. My uncle took his 2 years in the Air Force. He learned to maintain helicopters, and ended up in civilian employment in charge of aircraft procurement for Olympic Airways. I don't think he was the worse off for his time in uniform.

or maybe we can stop making military death machines, and start making machinery and equipment that positively helps the human race. maybe these civilians can help make and maintain this equipment.

Dr Jakub

Wanderer78 wrote: »

or maybe we can stop making military death machines, and start making machinery and equipment that positively helps the human race. maybe these civilians can help make and maintain this equipment.

And when the other tribe invades you? What then?

Widdershins

Dr Jakub wrote: »

And when the other tribe invades you? What then?

Yep. The idea depends on everyone else wanting the same thing,peace, demilitarisation and global friendship, which of course they don't.

Imagine being reliant on all of the ''but I don't wanna!'' people then..

Wanderer78

Dr Jakub wrote: »

And when the other tribe invades you? What then?

if we created economic and financial systems that actually benefitted the majority and werent like what we have now, i.e. parasitic, predatory and destructive of our political, economical, social and environmental systems, we mightnt have to worry too much about invasions!

Wanderer78

Widdershins wrote: »

Yep. The idea depends on everyone else wanting the same thing,peace, demilitarisation and global friendship, which of course they don't.

Imagine being reliant on all of the ''but I don't wanna!'' people then..

believe it or not, the majority on this planet actually want peace, unfortunately some minor groups, some who have sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies have chosen otherwise which has a major negative effects on us all

Dr Jakub

Wanderer78 wrote: »

if we created economic and financial systems that actually benefitted the majority and werent like what we have now, i.e. parasitic, predatory and destructive of our political, economical, social and environmental systems, we mightnt have to worry too much about invasions!

Maybe one day we'll live in a utopia, or maybe Christ will return and peace will reign but until then we'll need a military.

Wanderer78

Dr Jakub wrote: »

Maybe one day we'll live in a utopia, or maybe Christ will return and peace will reign but until then we'll need a military.

hmmm lets think about this for a second, country 'a' develops nuclear weapons, country 'b' decides, theyre doing it, so we re doing it. how exactly does this benefit mankind as a whole? dont forget, a person like mr trump believes, 'whats the point in having nuclear weapons unless you can use them'!!!! :rolleyes:

4ensic15

Digital Solitude wrote: »

I personally would deem it a silly idea, out current armed force is less than 10,000 strong and is doing pretty fine, up on 70,000 people sit the leaving every year, IMO

This is why this proposal is silly. Putting every leaving cert student through six months basic training would mean an intake into the military of 30,000 every 6 months. there is not enough accommodation, training grounds and instruction rooms for them. A recruit platoon of 35 has a lieutenant, a sergeant and some corporals. Add to that the other personnel such as cooks, medical, drivers and armourers needed to keep training going. Consider the clerical effort in contacting all proposed conscripts, hearing excuses appeal, dealing with deserters and conscientious objectors.

The core army would need to be expanded to triple its current size simply to handle the work created by having such a training load. Several thousand civil servants would also be needed plus additional gardaí.

It is unworkable and impractical, will never happen and is a waste of time to discuss.

El_Duderino 09

Widdershins wrote:

No..I don't think most others would gladly serve..I have no idea what most people would do. Maybe you're mixing it up with my comment that I think it would be beneficial for lots of people.

You said you were sure anyone who didn't have the conditions you have (job/family) would gladly serve...

Widdershins wrote:

I'm sure anyone whose family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it.

Widdershins wrote:

Nor did I mention a family or job. I wouldn't be suitable for me, or I wouldn't be suitable for it, now.

In relation to jobs and families you said this...

Widdershins wrote:

I'm sure anyone whose family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it.

Maybe I'm missing something. Looks to me like you think anyone who's family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it...

super_furry

I'd go to jail before I'd join the army. I have no intention of ever killing anyone and don't want to be trained to do so.

Widdershins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You said you were sure anyone who didn't have the conditions you have (job/family) would gladly serve...



In relation to jobs and families you said this...


Maybe I'm missing something. Looks to me like you think anyone who's family and work commitments allowed would be happy to do it...

Yes. Not MY circumstances. You mentioned family and jobs in connection to me. (''You created a context for conscripts which automatically excluded yourself (family or job).''

And, in thinking most people who have the time and no such commitments, would be happy to do it, I was being overly optimistic. From subsequent comments I realised even people with nothing at all to do probably wouldn't want to take part in any obligatory community service. I'm not sure why that matters any more than someone saying nobody at all would go for it.

super_furry

Community service is not the same as military service and you can't even remotely compare the two.

JupiterKid

No, but some sort of civil defence and basic first aid training for people might be a good idea.

Wanderer78

JupiterKid wrote: »

No, but some sort of civil defence and basic first aid training for people might be a good idea.

should be thought in our schools

El_Duderino 09

Widdershins wrote:

And, in thinking most people who have the time and no such commitments, would be happy to do it, I was being overly optimistic. From subsequent comments I realised even people with nothing at all to do probably wouldn't want to take part in any obligatory community service. I'm not sure why that matters any more than someone saying nobody at all would go for it.

Fair play for thinking about it. I imagine a lot of people are much happier to sign others up once they know they're precluded for service themselves. I think if you ask people if service age you'd get a much lower number than people above service age, for example.

That's why I think compulsory military service is a bit like Brexit. As demographics the older people voted to leave while the younger people voted to remain (particularly the ones who will have to live their entire adult life with the consequences of the referendum)

'I'll sign, you soldier' is an easier decision to make than having to do both yourself.

road_high

Yes definitely. It might install a greater sense of public duty and personal responsibility amongst the Irish populace. There's a huge lack of respect for all authority and rules in this country, a period of military or civic service might knock that into a few of us.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

road_high wrote: »

Yes definitely. It might install a greater sense of public duty and personal responsibility amongst the Irish populace. There's a huge lack of respect for all authority and rules in this country, a period of military or civic service might knock that into a few of us.

... or it might do the exact opposite.

You can't force free individuals to feel something like that - they either feel it of their own volition or they don't - and you can't force people to respect something.

Wanderer78

road_high wrote: »

Yes definitely. It might install a greater sense of public duty and personal responsibility amongst the Irish populace. There's a huge lack of respect for all authority and rules in this country, a period of military or civic service might knock that into a few of us.

its extremely important to question authority always, as what they do and say isnt always in the interest of all!

road_high

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its extremely important to question authority always, as what they do and say isnt always in the interest of all!

In some instances it is, but certainly not routinely always. Anything else is akin to rent a mob style justice ala the free water brigade. Respecting authority and believing in ridiculous leftie conspiracies are two very different things.