Low Breastfeeding rates linked to Catholic Guilt

meeeeh

Pherekydes wrote: »

Breastfeeding is not very convenient for some. You can't have a great time on your weekend away if you're breastfeeding. It's much easier to dump the kid off at your mother's and then you're free for the whole night or weekend.

Trust me you can.

HS3

FortySeven wrote: »

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How about the women that did, what was their motivation.

They gave a ****.

So did the mothers who formula fed. I tried breastfeeding it didn't work. Was post emergency c section, had pre eclampsia before and after the birth. I tried to breastfeed but my son wasn't latching on properly. When I thought he was and was under the illusion he was happily feeding away, the nurse came in and said he was getting nowt. It, being my first, I was worried about whether that would happen at home too and he'd end up starving! I rented a pump instead and for the first two weeks pumped and he got that on top of his formula. Not an ounce of not giving a ****, it just didn't work.

On the second guy, that was an emergency c section too. Much more serious than the first. And I puked for hours afterwards on the morphine. Was in no condition to try breastfeeding. When I finally came round and said it to the nurse, she said 'ah sure he's grand on the formula leave him be'. Needless to say I've kicked myself ever since for not going with my instinct, but I was battered and bruised and in no mood for a fight.

I absolutely give a **** it just didn't work out for me.

Advbrd

HS3 wrote: »

So did the mothers who formula fed. I tried breastfeeding it didn't work. Was post emergency c section, had pre eclampsia before and after the birth. I tried to breastfeed but my son wasn't latching on properly. When I thought he was and was under the illusion he was happily feeding away, the nurse came in and said he was getting nowt. It, being my first, I was worried about whether that would happen at home too and he'd end up starving! I rented a pump instead and for the first two weeks pumped and he got that on top of his formula. Not an ounce of not giving a ****, it just didn't work.

On the second guy, that was an emergency c section too. Much more serious than the first. And I puked for hours afterwards on the morphine. Was in no condition to try breastfeeding. When I finally came round and said it to the nurse, she said 'ah sure he's grand on the formula leave him be'. Needless to say I've kicked myself ever since for not going with my instinct, but I was battered and bruised and in no mood for a fight.

I absolutely give a **** it just didn't work out for me.

Of course you give a sh1t. The vast majority of mothers and fathers do. Linking breast feeding to giving a sh1t is pretty moronic to say the least. My daughter was breast fed my son was not due to complications.

fizzypish

"Why do men have nipples" GTA vice city (I think). Breast feeding seems like a massive pain in the hole. Sure it might be better but your sanity is worth more. I wouldn't do it and if I did, I'd probably be put in jail for being a paedo. Cant have chizzelers sucking on me chesticles!

Penny Tration

FortySeven, I know what your ex has done and your antipathy towards her is warranted.


But based on your repeated posts on numerous threads about women, especially in AH, I really think you'd benefit from talking to a counsellor or your GP. The level of derision and downright nastiness you show women in general is concerning.


I'm sure you're not usually that hateful, and understandably you're upset and hurt over your ex, but you need to do something to get over your hatred of women before you end up a lonely old man.

Please talk to someone.

seamus

rgace wrote: »

I would assume that is the reason in the majority of cases. I could be wrong but mothers probably spend less time in hospital after giving birth nowadays, time which could be used to practice breastfeeding with the help of a midwife if they are struggling

That's if midwives were available.

My wife's experience was that one great midwife did her best to try and help in between rushing around to do everything else.
All of the other midwives were like drill sergeants, constantly threatening to take the baby and give it a bottle if she wasn't able to figure out breastfeeding.

Irish maternity hospitals are run like production lines. There's little consideration given to personal or emotional support, the aim is get the baby out according to the hospital's schedule and then send it home healthy as soon as possible. They don't care about mothers.

HSE guidelines require nurses and midwives to avoid the dreaded f-word at all costs, but as soon as the baby is out, most will steer new mothers towards bottles because it makes the midwives' lives easier.

The overall attitude towards breastfeeding is pretty poor in Ireland. I've heard a number of woman make "yuck" faces when it's discussed, and heard others outright say that it's disgusting. Convenience of bottles is a huge factor, but there's a significant cohort of Irish people who are still more conservative about anything to do with nudity than we'd like to believe.

Lucyfur

Low breastfeeding rates in Ireland are due to maternity wards being ridiculously understaffed and women not having help and support on tap for the first few weeks. Cos it is hard and it is painful. There's also no access to lactation consultants on the weekends.

conorhal

pwurple wrote: »

The irish times would say the catholics are responsible for rain on their picnic at this stage.

The position of the catholic church is pro-breastfeeding, in churches, and anywhere else. I was born in a catholic hospital, and was breastfed. Th nuns were almost militantly pro-breastfeeding apparantly. "What do you think they are for".

Personally I'm baffled as to what this 'Catholic guilt' is exactly and why a generation of 20-30 somethings that have never set foot in a church are suffering from it?

I could understand my mothers generation experiencing it, women who were 'churched' after giving birth to expunge the sin of sex, but I'm pretty sure the kids today experience guilt as a failure to instantly reply to a text or associate it with unfrending somebody on facebook.

Talk about lazy, ideologically motivated stupid peice if writing. No wonder the Times is a dying rag.

Day Lewin

What a load of nonsense, my grandmothers were both very Catholic and they enthusiastically nursed their babies.

There was a big shift to "artificial feeding" in the 1920s: it was considered very modern, more "scientific", and of course, provided a sales opportunity for the multi-million dairy industry!

And in Ireland, since formula costs money, the continuance of breastfeeding was (and still is, sometimes) associated with the poorest people and particularly with the Travelling community.

So there was lots of snobbery attached, as well.

But nothing to do with Catholicism! Look at Luke 11:27, 28

@OP - Don't wish your own prejudices onto other issues.

mariaalice

The convenience of the bottle feed is the answer also fashion has something to do with it when my oldest was born 32 years ago I was the only one Breast feeding in the maternity unit, the midwives has a that's interesting we do see the occasional Breast feeding mother by the time my second was born it was becoming more common again.

I gave up and put them both on to bottles after a few weeks simply because it was convenient. Let people do what works for them.

meeeeh

Lucyfur wrote: »

Low breastfeeding rates in Ireland are due to maternity wards being ridiculously understaffed and women not having help and support on tap for the first few weeks. Cos it is hard and it is painful. There's also no access to lactation consultants on the weekends.

There are countries with a lot worse maternity services that have a lot higher breast feeding rates. Everything is blamed on health professionals but it's mosty mother's attitude and attitude of those around her that affect bf rates.

I remember being at antenatal classes and I think I was the only one who didn't raise the hand when asked if we intend to bottle feed. I never paid any attention to baby related stuff but I do remember that when I was growing up everyone seemed to be breastfed so it didn't even occur to me you women without health complications would bottle feed.

Turtyturd

My OH is currently breastfeeding our daughter and we were just talking about attitudes towards it last night. Dunno if it's Catholic guilt but there does seem to be a very dismissive and also shameful attitude towards it amongst older generations. On the other side of the coin having used formula with the first two kids there's a very condescending attitude from midwives and nurses towards those who bottle feed.

I reckon how much hard work it is has a big impact on why people don't do it, or start off intending to do it but switch over to formula. My OH has been at it a week and it's pretty much around the clock and that can be expected for another couple of weeks, aside from being tiring it makes it very difficult to plan or do anything. And all that is without even mentioning attitudes towards breastfeeding in public.

Pickpocket

FortySeven wrote: »

She carried, birthed and fed my kids like a trooper.

She must really miss you.

baldbear

Lucyfur wrote: »

Low breastfeeding rates in Ireland are due to maternity wards being ridiculously understaffed and women not having help and support on tap for the first few weeks. Cos it is hard and it is painful. There's also no access to lactation consultants on the weekends.

That's exactly how we felt. The nurses had very little time to help & support my wife. Once baby was born & healthy they just moved on to the next mother. It's tough for 1st time mums who don't expect that lack of support.

eviltwin

FortySeven wrote: »

They gave a ****.

There's many reasons women don't breastfeed. I'd hazard a guess a tiny minority don't give a whatever about the child. Breastfeeding or not does not indicate your quality as a parent. You can feed your child formula and still be a wonderful parent. It's just one tiny part of the parenting journey.

RobertKK

In the past a lot of women stayed at home to rear the children and cook and clean.
Times have changed.

I was reared on formula and cows milk, I think the best is breastfeeding, but it is not suitable for a lot of women and they should not be made feel they are doing something wrong.
Working and keeping a roof over the head of their child or children is more important and keeping the food on the table so in the grand scheme of things while breastfeeding is the optimum option, it is an option and the first few feeds of breast milk/colostrum are the most important but after that the options are there.

eviltwin

baldbear wrote: »

That's exactly how we felt. The nurses had very little time to help & support my wife. Once baby was born & healthy they just moved on to the next mother. It's tough for 1st time mums who don't expect that lack of support.

Not just first time mums. I was home ten hours after the birth of my second. I hadn't breastfed my first so needed guidance but didn't get it because the other two women in the room had sections and were in a much worse state than me. Add to that my son was born in the early hours of Saturday morning and so I had to wait until the Tuesday for my first visit by a nurse and I was fighting a loosing battle.

Breastfeeding is the most natural thing in the world but it's still a skill that needs to be taught and if you have no one around you to guide you its a massive setback.

Turtyturd

eviltwin wrote: »

Breastfeeding is the most natural thing in the world but it's still a skill that needs to be taught and if you have no one around you to guide you its a massive setback.

I think if they want to promote it they need to drop the 'most natural thing in the world' tag line. It creates the idea that it should happen automatically and makes women feel like they are failing at it if it doesn't happen instantly.

Lucyfur

baldbear wrote: »

That's exactly how we felt. The nurses had very little time to help & support my wife. Once baby was born & healthy they just moved on to the next mother. It's tough for 1st time mums who don't expect that lack of support.

Aye, I have to say I received amazing support but that was because my baby was in NICU and one of the neo nurses sat with me and taught me how to express. But only for a very passionate public health nurse and the local Le Leche League I'd have rage quit at home. I'm not a 1st time mum either!

GreenFolder2

conorhal wrote: »

Personally I'm baffled as to what this 'Catholic guilt' is exactly and why a generation of 20-30 somethings that have never set foot in a church are suffering from it?

I could understand my mothers generation experiencing it, women who were 'churched' after giving birth to expunge the sin of sex, but I'm pretty sure the kids today experience guilt as a failure to instantly reply to a text or associate it with unfrending somebody on facebook.

Talk about lazy, ideologically motivated stupid peice if writing. No wonder the Times is a dying rag.

This article comes from a piece of British research and I have found over the years they are a little fixated on associating catholic vs protestant religious denominations with particular outcomes.

E.g. there were articles about how "catholic" countries were more likely to go into economic crisis, which blissfully ignored the fact that Austria's majority catholic, yet one of the most fiscally conservative places in the EU, same with some of the most economically strong parts of Germany, it's the largest religious grouping in Switzerland and so on.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18789154

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/oct/31/economics-religion-research

It's a regular theme in British writing ..

What's even more ironic, is the Church of England is probably the least theocratically 'protestant' of the protestant churches and certainly never really adopted many of the dramatically different ideologies of some of the other branches like Lutheranism, Calvinism and so on. It even defines itself as 'a catholic' church. Just not the Roman Catholic one.

I would find it hard enough to analyse any country in the EU through the lens of religion these days, especially in western Europe. Yeah, there are a few legacy issues, Ireland being one of the more extreme examples, but for the most part they're secular, post-religious societies that just have a religion more in the background than as something that's driving government policy.

You could talk about Ireland's Catholic background, but what I would say is more of a factor is the puritanical notions about nudity, bodies, sexuality and so on that existed in *all* English speaking countries that came out of the anglosphere origin. Every single one of them has massive hang ups about boobs, to the extent that Victorian women used to go swimming in a shed on wheels to protect their modesty ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathing_machine

I'm not writing this to defend the Roman Catholic Church and its many, many odd issues. I'm not even Catholic myself (devout atheist) but, I think it does get rather over-criticised in aspects of the British media and academia. You have to see Ireland's history as more of a weird combination of extreme Victorian / Edwardian Puritanism and obsessions with respectability combined with catholicism. If anything, it's an extremely British form of Catholicism which got somehow wrapped in a republican flag.

We're really only figuring out what being an Irish Republic is in recent years.

Geuze

As a parent, I can tell you that low breastfeeding rates have nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

Laziness / difficult / bottle is convenient - these are the reasons.

It can be difficult to get the baby to latch on.

Geuze

seamus wrote: »

The overall attitude towards breastfeeding is pretty poor in Ireland. I've heard a number of woman make "yuck" faces when it's discussed, and heard others outright say that it's disgusting. Convenience of bottles is a huge factor, but there's a significant cohort of Irish people who are still more conservative about anything to do with nudity than we'd like to believe.

I believe you, but at the same time I find it hard to accept there are so many stupid people around.

What do they think breasts are for?

It's totally normal and natural.

Why would a mother think like that?

Geuze

pwurple wrote: »

The irish times would say the catholics are responsible for rain on their picnic at this stage.

The position of the catholic church is pro-breastfeeding, in churches, and anywhere else. I was born in a catholic hospital, and was breastfed. Th nuns were almost militantly pro-breastfeeding apparantly. "What do you think they are for".

Very good post.

suicide_circus

Mass extinction of the dinosaurs?

Destruction of Pompeii?

Chernobel?

The Challenger disaster?

You guessed it....the Catholic Church.

meeeeh

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

This article comes from a piece of British research and I have found over the years they are a little fixated on associating catholic vs protestant ...

I managed to find the article (the link didn't work for me) but it concentrtes on countries with worst bf rates in international comparisons (oecd).Basically there are way more 'chatolic' countries than UK with a lot higher bf rates. Personally I wonder what results would we get with comparison of maternity leave or price and availability of formula etc. It would be interesting to see what other factors were taken into account.

GreenFolder2

I'd say lack of maternity leave and inadequate close-to-work childcare are a huge factor.

I don't honestly think you'll get much of an issue with people taking offence to someone breastfeeding either. You see it all the time, certainly in Cork anyway.

I also saw a woman in a coffee shop complain that another woman was breastfeeding, so they gave the complainer a seat outside where she could be 'more comfortable'. She just left.

So, I really don't think there's likely to be much of an issue with anyone breastfeeding in public here. If anything you'll be stood up for by most businesses / members of the public.

I mean, what business wants to be tarnished with the reputation of being anti-breastfeeding?!

mariaalice

It seems to be that in poorer societies and some cultures there is status attached to feeding your child with baby formula, the ad's for follow on milk reflect this even in a wealthy society like we have.

There are other issues as well for example in Spain and Portugal breast feeding is seen as the norm and formula feeding is associated with the mother or baby being sick or unwell and the buying of formula is associated with pharmacy's. That does not mean that they don't use formula but the cultural attitude to it is different.

TheDoc

Erm I'd imagine it's less so Catholic guilt and maybe mothers just making their own decisions?

My partner has formula fed our two children, and considering their development, happy it was the right choice for us.

Have to say on our second child, now two months old, I didn't appreciate the forcefulness of signage and staff pushing breastfeeding. No one in the hospital was able to provide any scientific evidence, all the sentences and "benefits" used were about bonding and basically things that are not quantifiable. The only thing that appeared to be concrete from the information we asked for was "it helps the mother lose babyweight quicker" : /

Kinda feel like it's a bit of a "fad" with the whole breastfeeding in public, and there was a noticeable difference on our second child with the pushing of breastfeeding. And to be honest didn't appreciate the expressions and responses some staff were giving when my partner stood fast in her decision.

seamus

Geuze wrote: »

I believe you, but at the same time I find it hard to accept there are so many stupid people around.

What do they think breasts are for?

It's totally normal and natural.

Why would a mother think like that?

Many people in Ireland have been raised to think that boobs, bums and genitals are dirty and should be covered up. Women in particular are often raised to think that sex is something which should be reluctantly endured and soon forgotten.

It's not hard to see why they would also consider breastfeeding, or indeed any normal bodily function to be disgusting.

It may not be direct catholic guilt, but it can be by proxy. Parental influence on children is huge and the majority of new mothers today have parents who were raised under the jackboot of Catholic authoritarianism, and encouraged to be ashamed of themselves.

Day Lewin

seamus wrote: »

Many people in Ireland have been raised to think that boobs, bums and genitals are dirty and should be covered up. Women in particular are often raised to think that sex is something which should be reluctantly endured and soon forgotten.

It's not hard to see why they would also consider breastfeeding, or indeed any normal bodily function to be disgusting.

It may not be direct catholic guilt, but it can be by proxy. Parental influence on children is huge and the majority of new mothers today have parents who were raised under the jackboot of Catholic authoritarianism, and encouraged to be ashamed of themselves.

I'd love to meet some of those people: they must be hidden away somewhere. Certainly not in "After Hours" or anywhere else on boards...or in my family..or my husband's family..or the choir I sing in ( a church choir!) or the social club I attend...

Honestly, isn't this partly mythology? This is the 21st century. And we can think for ourselves. As could my parents, in their day, AND grandparents - all Catholic but somehow not brainless. And all very keen on breastfeeding.

Except for one thing...bottoms really ARE dirty, if they aren't washed after doing a poo...just saying!

meeeeh

TheDoc wrote: »

Erm I'd imagine it's less so Catholic guilt and maybe mothers just making their own decisions?

My partner has formula fed our two children, and considering their development, happy it was the right choice for us.

Have to say on our second child, now two months old, I didn't appreciate the forcefulness of signage and staff pushing breastfeeding. No one in the hospital was able to provide any scientific evidence, all the sentences and "benefits" used were about bonding and basically things that are not quantifiable. The only thing that appeared to be concrete from the information we asked for was "it helps the mother lose babyweight quicker" : /

Kinda feel like it's a bit of a "fad" with the whole breastfeeding in public, and there was a noticeable difference on our second child with the pushing of breastfeeding. And to be honest didn't appreciate the expressions and responses some staff were giving when my partner stood fast in her decision.

Breastfeeding in public is not a fad. It's a normal way of life. There is overwhelming evidence that breastfeeding is better for kids not to mention the fact that most people don't even follow manufacturer's instructions for making up formula.

You might not like the attitude you got there is no point to dismiss plenty of scientific evidence just because you didn't want to do something.

seamus

Day Lewin wrote: »

I'd love to meet some of those people: they must be hidden away somewhere. Certainly not in "After Hours" or anywhere else on boards...or in my family..or my husband's family..or the choir I sing in ( a church choir!) or the social club I attend...

Just because you don't know them, doesn't mean they don't exist. I don't know anyone who thinks Sinn Fein should be in government or that vaccines cause autism, but I know these people exist.

What you find is the people around you tend to be really like you. In terms of the people I know, actual revulsion about breastfeeding is confined to one or two people, but overall prudishness about it is surprisingly common.

ectoraige

The biggest issue is that many Irish people don't have much exposure to breastfeeding. A study in the past suggested that most women have decided by the age of 16 whether they would breastfeed or not, indicating that public health promotions would be more successful if they were aimed at secondary schools rather than prenatal clinics.

Women are more likely to breastfeed when their mothers, aunts, or sisters have breastfed. More crucially, they are more likely to continue breastfeeding for longer when they have seen their peers breastfeed successfully.

The default position for Irish women seems to be one of doubting whether they'd even be able to breastfeed. Yes, it's difficult at the start, and can be very painful, but when you don't have the in-built confidence and knowledge that would you are trying can succeed, it is no wonder so many who try stop early on. There has always been a certain number of women who failed to breastfeed, but by-and-large, thanks to good peer support, women throughout the ages have not had a problem. There is nothing different about Irish breasts that makes breastfeeding hard, it's the mental attitudes and beliefs are held in Ireland.

dub_skav

meeeeh wrote: »

Breastfeeding in public is not a fad. It's a normal way of life. There is overwhelming evidence that breastfeeding is better for kids not to mention the fact that most people don't even follow manufacturer's instructions for making up formula.

You might not like the attitude you got there is no point to dismiss plenty of scientific evidence just because you didn't want to do something.

Well TheDoc has said that nobody could provide them with this information. Can you help him out?

LirW

I don't give a flying f if a woman is breastfeeding or not. Plenty of women have short maternity leaves and in all honesty, even though theoretically you would be entitled to breastfeed, the reality is just that it is extremely inconvenient. It's amazing that there is a substitute for women not being able to breastfeed for whatever reason.
As a woman you can't win anyway. You are doing it wrong in people's eyes anyway. Wards are understaffed, not every midwife is possible to give you the care and time you'd really need to have a good start off breastfeeding.

I breastfed my firstborn and I intend to do so again with my new arrival for the main reason: I find it very convenient and it's cheap. All in all once it worked out I had good night sleep, it just worked so well and personally I'm too lazy to carry bottles and water and all of that stuff around. But it's just not for everyone and I don't think it's right to blame women who aren't breastfeeding.

Let's blame the church for it, that's fine, it is just more fun :pac:

Jayop

meeeeh wrote: »

Breastfeeding in public is not a fad. It's a normal way of life. There is overwhelming evidence that breastfeeding is better for kids not to mention the fact that most people don't even follow manufacturer's instructions for making up formula.

You might not like the attitude you got there is no point to dismiss plenty of scientific evidence just because you didn't want to do something.

He didn't dismiss it because he wasn't given it. Personally if a mother wants to breast feed then she should do so and be given all the support needed and the right to do it when and where the child needs it. However if she should choose to bottle feed for whatever reason she shouldn't be made to feel guilty for that design.

The guilt tripping that I see happens more by health professionals than the church.

Maximus Alexander

Men telling women how to be mothers. Boards just keeps on giving.

Outlaw Pete

meeeeh wrote: »

Breastfeeding in public is not a fad.

In fairness I think he means the breastfeeding in public for attention stuff, rather than just women merely breastfeeding in public. There unquestionably has been women who have gone out purposefully to get a reaction so they can then go to the media. Same with a lot of the late stage breastfeeding stuff that has been in the news, such as the woman that appeared on the front cover of Time magazine breastfeeding her almost four year old.

I'm all for women breastfeeding in public, it's their business and if you have a problem with it, then that's your problem. Seems odd to me that someone could be drinking a milk shake (milk from another species' tit) and look across and see a member of their own species drinking milk from their mother and be disgusted by it. Such people should be asked to leave restaurants if they complain I feel.

But lets not pretend that some women out there aren't using breastfeeding to get attention and that it has become somewhat of a fad to do so, as it undoubtedly has.

http://people.com/human-interest/breastfeeding-mom-challenges-critics-icy-stare-by-staring-right-back/

meeeeh

dub_skav wrote: »

Well TheDoc has said that nobody could provide them with this information. Can you help him out?

There is this magic thing called Google.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/jan/28/breastfeeding-could-prevent-800000-child-deaths-lancet-says

Lia_lia

I don't know would I call it Catholic guilt but many Irish people are prudes. Also just not used to breastfeeding I guess. I used to be a waitress and many of my co-workers wouldn't even go up to take orders from a table where a woman was breastfeeding because it was "weird" and "awkward".

My Mother breastfed my brother and myself until we were toddlers and said it was extremely easy and she doesn't understand how people find it difficult. She obviously just had a good experience with it and had no issues. Also it was 27 years ago so she probably has forgotten if it was in any way difficult! This was also in the UK so there was probably more support. All my cousins were breastfed at some stage. I didn't even know formula existed until I was almost a teenager.

A friend of mine is breastfeeding and says she got no support at all from the hospital and she can see why so few Irish women breastfeed. She was given formula for her baby in the hospital and had to pay for a few visits from a lactation consultant for support. Also, she got (and still gets!) plenty of comments from people saying "would you not just give her a bottle" etc..

meeeeh

Jayop wrote: »

He didn't dismiss it because he wasn't given it. Personally if a mother wants to breast feed then she should do so and be given all the support needed and the right to do it when and where the child needs it. However if she should choose to bottle feed for whatever reason she shouldn't be made to feel guilty for that design.

The guilt tripping that I see happens more by health professionals than the church.

Either they were not attending antenatal classes and hospital appointments because they bombard you with literature on breastfeeding so much I actually think it's counter productive. The information is also easy to find from reliable sources such as WHO. Wilful ignorance can't be an excuse.

Frankly I don't give a damn what people do, I breastfed as long as it was convenient and not a day loger. But this whinging that people are forced or guilt tripped into something is nonsense. Health professionals should advise you about best options and what you do with that info is up to you.

rainbow kirby

I'm in the UK and breastfeeding an 8 month old. We had a nightmarish start - he was slow to latch, kept falling asleep on the boob and ended up back in hospital with jaundice, low blood sugar and a 12% weight loss at 3 days old, had to top up with formula and then expressed milk in the hospital. We did get some support on the postnatal ward, but got a lot more when we were re-admitted and on the children's ward. It was still hard after that, turned out that he had a tongue tie that was only diagnosed at 20 weeks and he'd outgrown his issues with it by the time he had his tongue tie clinic appointment at 24 weeks. Now it's very easy, boob at night to knock him out almost instantly feels like a superpower at times, but getting started and getting things established was hard work.

I actually think lack of support is a huge problem - "ah shur give a bottle" is NOT acceptable advice to a mother who wants to breastfeed, and the low levels of staffing on maternity wards and low levels of breastfeeding knowledge among midwives and nurses is a problem too. Lactation consultants need to be available 24/7 on the wards and for early home visits - "it's the weekend, no service" can sabotage someone's early feeding. They should be free or very heavily subsidised too - the cost should never be a barrier because the cost to the health service of another artificially fed baby is greater than the cost of early breastfeeding support.

Dolbert

In hospitals in Ireland, there is pressure from the get-go to "top-up" with formula. My son was born with a low birth weight and low blood sugars and I was strongly advised that he needed formula immediately. I could have refused, but when a doctor is telling you that your baby is in danger, it doesn't seem like the end of the world to agree to a bit of formula. I still had him on the breast practically 24/7, and even then my milk took 5 days to come in.

Hospitals and public health nurses are obsessed with the baby's weight. It's normal for newborns to lose a certain amount of weight in the days after birth, and alarm bells are rung if they've dropped below a certain threshold. What they don't take into account is that IV fluids during labour can artificially inflate the baby's birth weight, that breastmilk usually takes 3 days or so to come in or that breastfed babies generally don't gain weight as quickly as formula-fed.

In hospital, the feeding advice can change depending on which midwife is on duty. Some will tell you to persevere, that all baby needs is colostrum and to keep going. Others will be adamant that your baby is "starving" and needs a top-up. Of course this interrupts the baby's suckling reflex, which means the milk supply is never being stimulated properly. All of this before you even leave the hospital.

From speaking to friends who didn't breastfeed, their perception of it is that it's the harder option. That it's an ordeal that women "put themselves through" unnecessarily, and that you'd want to be stopping that carry on by 6 months (it's weird after that apparently :rolleyes:) I had an awful time at the start and a terrible supply despite my best efforts, but having the option to stop all crying/fussing/screaming blue murder with boob is a gift from the gods.

I don't buy the idea that it's down to religious guilt. Many European Catholic countries have excellent breastfeeding rates. What we do have in common with the Brits is prudishness. I personally found feeding in public a huge mental hurdle, or even feeding in a room with other people at first. Luckily nobody ever said anything negative to me (for them).

ceadaoin.

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

I'd say lack of maternity leave and inadequate close-to-work childcare are a huge factor.

I don't honestly think you'll get much of an issue with people taking offence to someone breastfeeding either. You see it all the time, certainly in Cork anyway.

I also saw a woman in a coffee shop complain that another woman was breastfeeding, so they gave the complainer a seat outside where she could be 'more comfortable'. She just left.

So, I really don't think there's likely to be much of an issue with anyone breastfeeding in public here. If anything you'll be stood up for by most businesses / members of the public.

I mean, what business wants to be tarnished with the reputation of being anti-breastfeeding?!

Search this forum for the term 'breastfeeding'. You'll find that prudishness and disgust towards public breastfeeding is fairly common

meeeeh

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Search this forum for the term 'breastfeeding'. You'll find that prudishness and disgust towards public breastfeeding is fairly common

In fairness you wouldn't want to judge attitudes by replys in AH.

I think most often is the mental block in our own heads. Plus it's awkward at the beginning just to latch baby on without making complete meal out of it andtrying it in public doesn't make it any easier. I never had any negative reaction from anyone. My partner's family needed to get used to it but I was never made to feel uncomfortable.

Jayop

Also anyone who thinks bottle feeding on formula is the 'easy' option clearly hasn't done it then. You have to make bottles up every time you need them, the days of making a full day's bottles in advance are gone.

Is it too much to expect that people on an Irish website could have the independence of mind to not regurgitate all these British Protestant stereotypes of Catholics and their supposed guilt and other supposed backward characteristics?

The way they carry on this traditional demonisation of the "otherness" of Catholics, and Irish Catholics in particular, you'd swear their own society was not poisoned with puritan and Victorian - a byword for repression - values. For instance, it's only since 1974 that the ban in England on playing soccer matches on a Sunday was lifted; and only in 2015 that the most "Protestant" part of the UK ended their ban on playing soccer on a Sunday. Bizarre. And don't even start about the ban on Catholics becoming their head of state. Yet still idiots accept their deeply rooted stereotyping of Irish Catholics as backward without questioning similar things in British society.

This whole "Catholic guilt" thing was never in the Catholic culture I was brought up in. It's a decidedly WASP invention imposed upon us.


Cultural Cringe

conorhal

ectoraige wrote: »

The biggest issue is that many Irish people don't have much exposure to breastfeeding. A study in the past suggested that most women have decided by the age of 16 whether they would breastfeed or not, indicating that public health promotions would be more successful if they were aimed at secondary schools rather than prenatal clinics.

Women are more likely to breastfeed when their mothers, aunts, or sisters have breastfed. More crucially, they are more likely to continue breastfeeding for longer when they have seen their peers breastfeed successfully.

The default position for Irish women seems to be one of doubting whether they'd even be able to breastfeed. Yes, it's difficult at the start, and can be very painful, but when you don't have the in-built confidence and knowledge that would you are trying can succeed, it is no wonder so many who try stop early on. There has always been a certain number of women who failed to breastfeed, but by-and-large, thanks to good peer support, women throughout the ages have not had a problem. There is nothing different about Irish breasts that makes breastfeeding hard, it's the mental attitudes and beliefs are held in Ireland.

It's about the cultural norms in a society.
Women today are far more likely to be working mothers, so breast feeding is simply out.
Combine that with the fact that they are having fewer kids and leaving it till later to have them, this often means they have no contact with breasfeeding women in their family or peer groups growing up so it's seem as something scary and unknown becaue they just have no one with experience to call on for advice.

GreenFolder2

meeeeh wrote: »

In fairness you wouldn't want to judge attitudes by replys in AH.

I think most often is the mental block in our own heads. Plus it's awkward at the beginning just to latch baby on without making complete meal out of it andtrying it in public doesn't make it any easier. I never had any negative reaction from anyone. My partner's family needed to get used to it but I was never made to feel uncomfortable.

The one time I did see a negative reaction the "reactor" was the person who felt the scorn of glaring eyes, snide comments and people tutting, not the woman who was breast feeding.

Autonomous Cowherd

There was a time when there was some sort of ''guilt'' abroad in the land, be it Catholic or not. On her visit to me after I gave birth to my first-born my mother declined to enter my house and chose to stand outside in the rain as I was breast-feeding inside ''like an animal'' on the couch. What did I do in the face of this bizarre reaction? I put up my feet and me and the baba took our good time about it.