Luas Tracks - Be Careful out there

brocbrocach

average_runner wrote: »

I think you will find the engineers met all safety requirements when doing this project.

I'm sure they did. But it doesn't feel safe to me the few times I've had dealings with it. Time will tell I suppose.

listermint

tomasrojo wrote: »

I've been cycling decades too. I've fallen a handful of times -- it's mercifully very rare -- but I've never experienced anything like the bike just being whipped out from under me. It's completely outside the usual frame of reference. It's not like sliding on gravel on ice or going into a skid. And I should say that I'm very well aware of the importance of a right-angled approach, and I got as close as I could to one, and the bike still just disappeared from under me.

A lot of these tracks, including the track outside St. James', make it pretty hard to get a right-angled approach to the track. A combination of road geometry and the impatience of following traffic can make it hard work. Edinburgh also designed streets that brought cyclists across tram tracks at severely suboptimal angles (about fifteen degrees). They're being sued a lot, and are now looking into fixes.

Sorry, did the track just randomly appear out of nowhere or was it there ahead of you in sight?

Jesus wept, between this and your one up the mountains walking people are looking for excuses to be molly coddled.


Use your Eyes and your common sense....

listermint

Mercian Pro wrote: »

If you have been cycling decades at rush hours in areas of the city where there are tram tracks, you should well know that the main danger occurs when you are forced into the tracks at a shallow angle by traffic or pedestrians. There are many situations where the glib advice of crossing the tracks at right angles is utterly impractical and would almost certainly result in a collision.

A case in point: a few years ago, having crossed Butt Bridge and heading for Gardiner Street, I was forced into the gap between the two lanes of traffic by a bus pulling out from a stop. As the bus, myself and a van outside me swung right at the end of Abbey Street, I managed to bunny jump the front wheel over the Luas track but the rear wheel dropped into the gap. Somehow I managed to stay upright (at the expense of a new wheel) but I could easily have fallen under the bus or van. From what I have seen of the new Luas line, there are quite a few corners where something similar could easily happen.

A few years ago a bus pulled out in front of me, I decided to press on rather than slowing down or coming to a stop.

One thing they teach in in motorcycle training is that you can be 'in the right' in the grave or alive at home.

Being right (having right of way etc) doesnt matter a jot if you can be squashed in an instance on a bike or in the case of a motorcycle flung spinning into the air.

Be aware and be safe, its all about bloody anticipation there are many people seemingly in here who dont know the meaning of the word.

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

when I was in france for the euros, I noticed this in bordeaux, a lot of people just coming off their bikes due to lack of vigilance, you are crossing a bloody tram track. are they stupid or something?

Tourists probably. When I was in Nice all the locals use the tramways to cycle in but are sure to cross the tracks at 45 degree angles.

average_runner

brocbrocach wrote: »

I'm sure they did. But it doesn't feel safe to me the few times I've had dealings with it. Time will tell I suppose.

Maybe its your approach to them that's not safe. ?

OleRodrigo

If you come across an obstacle that's difficult to negotiate - pothole, lump of tarmac, tram track - it shouldn't just appear out of thin air. You will see it coming if you're paying enough attention.

You should be travelling at a speed that allows you to react safely to the obstacle with regard to your ability to handle the bike (which you should have an innate sense of ).If something is difficult to navigate past, brake and pull in. Or just brake and stop.

Keeping your eyes peeled and handling the bike properly will see you OK in the majority of instances. Planners and Engineers will assume you will be doing this anyway, if you have any sense of self preservation.

Leroy42 wrote: »

This tracks at O'Connell bridge do create a particular problem. They run up the inside of the leftmost right turning lane, basically right where a bicycle should be positioning itself.

Its all well and good saying cut across them at right angles, but that particular stretch, with all the traffic etc seems overly difficult.

in saying that, I go that route every day and never had a real issue apart from being extra careful

I disagree. Once you see this track you can cut across at an angle and keep a wide position on the right turning lane. There's no problem taking a wider position here because traffic will be moving slowly to the lights on the North Quays, and wont be putting you under pressure to move through quickly. You shouldnt position yourself to the left of this lane because there is a risk a car will force its way through to make the right turn, pushing you out to the tracks and close to traffic going straight ahead, which usually has a green when the right turn is red.

Mercian Pro

listermint wrote: »

A few years ago a bus pulled out in front of me, I decided to press on rather than slowing down or coming to a stop.

One thing they teach in in motorcycle training is that you can be 'in the right' in the grave or alive at home.

Being right (having right of way etc) doesnt matter a jot if you can be squashed in an instance on a bike or in the case of a motorcycle flung spinning into the air.

Be aware and be safe, its all about bloody anticipation there are many people seemingly in here who dont know the meaning of the word.

Listermint, I marvel at your superior wisdom.

However, if I were to anticipate every stopped bus pulling out without signalling as I pass, I would either: a) dismount and walk on the footpath or b) avoid routes with bus stops.

With over forty years of cross-town commuting experience, I know what anticipation means in practice. I also recognise bad design when I see it. Cutting slots 37mm wide and 47mm deep in the road close to, and parallel to, where people are expected to cycle is bound to lead to accidents. If trenches 300mm wide and 500mm deep were cut in the main traffic lanes, motorists (and motorcyclists) would rightly be up in arms.

Cyclists and tram tracks need to be kept apart either by more intelligent design of the tram routes or the provision of separate cyclepaths. Where the two have to cross, some form of compressible flange filler needs to be fitted to the tracks.

tomasrojo

listermint wrote: »

Sorry, did the track just randomly appear out of nowhere or was it there ahead of you in sight?

Jesus wept, between this and your one up the mountains walking people are looking for excuses to be molly coddled.


Use your Eyes and your common sense....

No, I approached it at as close to a right angle as I could and it was so slippery because of the torrential rain that the bike disappeared from under me despite that. I had been cycling that way for over a year when this happened, so I was well familiar with the tracks. The rain was what made the difference.

brocbrocach

average_runner wrote: »

Maybe its your approach to them that's not safe. ?

Maybe it is. However I'm an experienced and aware cyclist cycling a bike I'm comfortable on. I'd regard myself as better able to deal with such obstacles than the majority of my fellow cyclists. If my approach was poor then I won't be the first or last person to make it.

Moflojo

Here's how the Luas tracks will intersect with cycle lanes when (when) the Liffey Cycleway is completed (the Luas track is the thick orange line). All in all there shouldn't be too much conflict, but perhaps the intersection with the main cycleway could receive some of that 'flange' treatment. I don't have links to the College Green or Parnell Street junctions but from what I remember they're going to be a little hairy for cyclists.

brocbrocach

Moflojo wrote: »

Here's how the Luas tracks will intersect with cycle lanes when (when) the Liffey Cycleway is completed (the Luas track is the thick orange line). All in all there shouldn't be too much conflict, but perhaps the intersection with the main cycleway could receive some of that 'flange' treatment. I don't have links to the College Green or Parnell Street junctions but from what I remember they're going to be a little hairy for cyclists.

Agreed, that looks fine as a longterm set-up when the option to turn right at the bridge is gone. Dodgy in the intervening few years though.

cdaly_

Mousewar wrote: »

Could not they put a bit of grip on the tracks? Like a bit of cross-hatching or something?

Cross hatching will just get hammered flat by the tram wheels.

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've a vague memory of hearing that tram tracks in toronto (a city in canada anyway i think) have rubber flanges on them which are too heavy duty for the weight of a cyclist to push out of the way. must look that one up.

tomasrojo wrote: »

No, I approached it at as close to a right angle as I could and it was so slippery because of the torrential rain that the bike disappeared from under me despite that. I had been cycling that way for over a year when this happened, so I was well familiar with the tracks. The rain was what made the difference.

What tomasrojo said. Rubber flanges will not prevent the wet rail slip being talked about here. They will prevent the wheel falling into the slot for a shallow angle crossing of the track.

Veloce150

listermint wrote: »

Sorry, did the track just randomly appear out of nowhere or was it there ahead of you in sight?....

Try spotting the tracks at night when it's wet and traffic ahead of you is on top of the them. Every week I go through College Green and the road layout is different. So just as soon as I've learned the layout and how to approach the tracks and where to take a good crossing line, they change the lanes.

At a minimum, they need to place markings on the road and illuminate it in such a way as to help cyclists see the tracks in poor lighting and weather conditions.

O'Connell Bridge has always been tricky for cyclists turning right onto Eden Quay, there are many hazards to consider. Running tracks parallel to the lane really adds to the overall risk there.

Dublin city is not the wilderness of Wicklow, road and street design should accomodate the needs of the public and not the convenience of engineers.

Saipanne

Carawaystick wrote: »

Who? the engineers who placed a dangerous obstacle in the way of cyclists?

Yes, they should have realised that cyclists should be the top concern of every city planner.

Veloce150

Saipanne wrote: »

Yes, they should have realised that cyclists should be the top concern of every city planner.

The safety of people should be their top concern.

Cyclists are people.

average_runner

brocbrocach wrote: »

Maybe it is. However I'm an experienced and aware cyclist cycling a bike I'm comfortable on. I'd regard myself as better able to deal with such obstacles than the majority of my fellow cyclists. If my approach was poor then I won't be the first or last person to make it.

Nope, but we can't cater for everyone's mistake.
Otherwise we have barriers all over the roads, stopping cars switching lanes dangerously etc

average_runner

brocbrocach wrote: »

Agreed, that looks fine as a longterm set-up when the option to turn right at the bridge is gone. Dodgy in the intervening few years though.

Also the turn onto D'olier st is gone from Westmoreland St.

The turn that is most dangerous will be from Westmoreland St onto the quays.
Need to change that plan and move the cycle lane out from there so cars and buses can turn there without worrying about cyclists and vice versa

Carawaystick

Saipanne wrote: »

Yes, they should have realised that cyclists should be the top concern of every city planner.

I said engineers, not planners. Yes, cyclists should be the top concern, as they are the most vulnerable class of people to the danger of placing rails on a road people travel along and across.

There's no point stating when construction is finished there's be little danger if during a several year long construction period, there is increased, and avoidable risk of injury.

average_runner

Carawaystick wrote: »

I said engineers, not planners. Yes, cyclists should be the top concern, as they are the most vulnerable class of people to the danger of placing rails on a road people travel along and across.

There's no point stating when construction is finished there's be little danger if during a several year long construction period, there is increased, and avoidable risk of injury.

Other countries have them and cyclists are grand

Granolite

average_runner wrote: »

Other countries have them and cyclists are grand

REALLY?

AUSTRALIA
http://www.smh.com.au/national/tram-tracks-a-trap-for-cyclists-police-tell-inquest-20091124-jerv.html

ENGLAND
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-37317891

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/228-cyclists-crash-on-sheffield-tram-tracks-in-two-years-1-7871079

Scotland
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/city-centre/edinburgh-cyclists-sue-council-over-tram-track-accidents-1-4170361

brocbrocach

average_runner wrote: »

Nope, but we can't cater for everyone's mistake.
Otherwise we have barriers all over the roads, stopping cars switching lanes dangerously etc

When does something stop being the fault of the road user and become the fault of the road planner? Thus accident black spots are often redesigned to take the sting out of a dangerous layout.
I think you don't believe that these highlighted sections are the equivalent of accident black spots. Have you cycled them yourself?

Carawaystick

average_runner wrote: »

Other countries have them and cyclists are grand

Please outline where in other countries, tram lines are under construction and are as difficult or more difficult to navigate on a bike as in Dublin at present?

average_runner

Granolite wrote: »

REALLY?

AUSTRALIA
http://www.smh.com.au/national/tram-tracks-a-trap-for-cyclists-police-tell-inquest-20091124-jerv.html

ENGLAND
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-37317891

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/228-cyclists-crash-on-sheffield-tram-tracks-in-two-years-1-7871079

Scotland
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/city-centre/edinburgh-cyclists-sue-council-over-tram-track-accidents-1-4170361

And how many manage not to fall on those tracks, if you show me more falling than staying up, then we have an issue

average_runner

Carawaystick wrote: »

Please outline where in other countries, tram lines are under construction and are as difficult or more difficult to navigate on a bike as in Dublin at present?

How are the ones in dublin difficult. The ones you can cycle on are the ones where they are not working on at the moment, so its just like a system in full operation

Moflojo

average_runner wrote: »

And how many manage not to fall on those tracks, if you show me more falling than staying up, then we have an issue

More of them were falling than staying up. 55% were falling. 40% were staying up. 5% had no preference.

Moflojo

average_runner wrote: »

And how many manage not to fall on those tracks, if you show me more falling than staying up, then we have an issue

average_runner

brocbrocach wrote: »

When does something stop being the fault of the road user and become the fault of the road planner? Thus accident black spots are often redesigned to take the sting out of a dangerous layout.
I think you don't believe that these highlighted sections are the equivalent of accident black spots. Have you cycled them yourself?

I cycle down Westmoreland st every day so I cross the line to turn right, no issues at all.
Also cross them outside the westlin hotel coming on to westmoreland st in evening time

Moflojo

average_runner wrote: »

I cycle down Westmoreland st every day so I cross the line to turn right, no issues at all.
Also cross them outside the westlin hotel coming on to westmoreland st in evening time

Granolite

average_runner wrote: »

I cycle down Westmoreland st every day so I cross the line to turn right, no issues at all.
Also cross them outside the westlin hotel coming on to westmoreland st in evening time

I take your point and I have managed to tease my way over and across the tramlines at O Connell Street bridge as well taking the same route with considerable care but my rational mind would still consider the existing arrangements to pose a significant hazard, especially when encountered in wet conditions and with traffic milling behind you as well as left and right of you, as you attempt to cross them and change from the straight ahead into right hand turn lanes ( all whilst signalling your intent to turn right to following motorist's of course).

You have demonstrated a grossly assumptive point of view in blindly stating that people in them `other countries' out yonder have them and`are grand' when it comes to navigating tram lines by bike and when referred to documented real world examples of issues in other countries asserted that its all down to number's. In that case (taking the Adelaide example I linked to in my last post) if 6 pedestrians were seriously injured in a 9 month period navigating around some other piece of public transport infrastructure in Dublin city would you still argue against some level of design mitigation to be employed at key clash points / intersection's?

Lumen

I like a bit of risk in my life. Tram tracks are the right kind of hard for me - they require a bit of concentration, there's anecdotes of other people smashing themselves to pieces, but I'm OK. That makes me feel like a bit of a hero, even though I'm mostly a talentless dork.

That attitude is fine for some randomer on the internet, but it's the job of infrastructure engineers to reasonably minimise risk for the users of that infrastructure, regardless of how skilled they are. If that wasn't their job they'd be professional sociopaths. Sure, why not just stick big spikes and oils slicks all over the place to make things more fun?