Luas Tracks - Be Careful out there

Wishbone Ash

Another cyclist down on O'Connell Bridge (northbound) this afternoon at 2pm. Wheel caught in tram rut. I was just in front of him when I heard the clatter behind me. He was back on his feet in seconds so I hope he's OK. Thankfully the bus travelling behind him managed to stop in time.

OleRodrigo

Granolite wrote: »

REALLY?

AUSTRALIA
http://www.smh.com.au/national/tram-tracks-a-trap-for-cyclists-police-tell-inquest-20091124-jerv.html

ENGLAND
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-37317891

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/228-cyclists-crash-on-sheffield-tram-tracks-in-two-years-1-7871079

Scotland
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/city-centre/edinburgh-cyclists-sue-council-over-tram-track-accidents-1-4170361

So, a handful of cyclists (whose competence cannot be determined) - out of a much larger population of cyclists who don't seem to have any problem - are right, and a body of civil Engineers, along with their supporting organisations and professional accreditation bodies are wrong ?

Tell us more about this terrible conspiracy !

OleRodrigo

Granolite wrote: »

I take your point and I have managed to tease my way over and across the tramlines at O Connell Street bridge as well taking the same route with considerable care but my rational mind would still consider the existing arrangements to pose a significant hazard, especially when encountered in wet conditions and with traffic milling behind you as well as left and right of you, as you attempt to cross them and change from the straight ahead into right hand turn lanes ( all whilst signalling your intent to turn right to following motorist's of course).

You're exaggerating the danger here. Coming from Westmorland street, all you need to do is make sure you're in the correct lane for the right turn onto the North Quay, cross the tracks at a safe angle and take the right turning lane wide enough to prevent any enthusiastic motorist from squeezing past. If you're in the right lane to begin with, there's no need to signal your intent to move across.

Nothing here that you wouldn't do in many other commuting scenarios.

Veloce150

average_runner wrote: »

How are the ones in dublin difficult. The ones you can cycle on are the ones where they are not working on at the moment, so its just like a system in full operation

They're invisible in the dark when it's raining and are positioned at a tricky junction with many issues such as overtaking traffic, drugged up J-walkers, ordinary random pedestrians, aggressive bus drivers and busses illegally parked in the Cycle lane where you enter Eden Quay.

They'll become really dangerous when they remove the filler when the Luas becomes operational.

ford2600

With any road feature which presents a risk, the road engineer has to navigate between his budget and the likely skillset/awareness of the road user.

There is a subset of road users for whom no amount of road narrowing/flashing lights/signs etc etc will matter a sh1te; they will still do stupid sh1te.

There is another subset, professional advanced level drivers, racing cyclists, skilled motorcyclists etc who need very little help from the road engineer to get about their business.

Most people are in the middle.

With various interested parties pleasing everyone isn't easy. New infrastructure takes time for people to get used to and teething problems are to be expected.

Cork City Council has had quite a few claims arising from their new cycle lanes;primarily from pedestrians. Kerbs in the middle of the road where there was never a kerb before.

The city council followed all the available standards/best practice (there are a few horrendous counter flow lanes though) yet people still fell and it has cost them quite a few quid. Not helped by anti cycling members of the judiciary I would think but that's for another day.

Mercian Pro

Having considerable difficulty trying to find drawings showing how cycle lanes and Luas tracks will interact around College Street and Lower Grafton Street. I did find "Luas Alignment Drawings" at https://8fd89272520f28b59d77-37ddf80e322f57113f0a1e52b546aba5.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/1.2-Grafton-St-Eden-Quay.pdf but there is no mention whatsoever of cycling anywhere on these drawings. Main traffic lanes, future Metro and Luas lines, overhead wires and even moving statues (!) are described but nothing for the humble bike. Makes you wonder if there has been any joined up thinking involving the Luas/RPA engineers and the DCC cycling officer.

Granolite

OleRodrigo wrote: »

You're exaggerating the danger here. Coming from Westmorland street, all you need to do is make sure you're in the correct lane for the right turn onto the North Quay, cross the tracks at a safe angle and take the right turning lane wide enough to prevent any enthusiastic motorist from squeezing past. If you're in the right lane to begin with, there's no need to signal your intent to move across.

Nothing here that you wouldn't do in many other commuting scenarios.

To be honest i don't believe I am exaggerating the hazard posed to a considerable number of people cycling who may be less seasoned or confident cyclist's, or simply those who would cycle infrequently through the city centre or be unfamiliar with these sort of intersection's.

You are evidently well endowed in road craft to outmaneuver the danger posed so fair play to you. I don't however apply the same level of trust to all motorist's outlined in the above hypothetical scenario to make an assumption that I or anyone else for that matter could approach the junction layout and tram/road lane crossing in the recommended manner 100% of the time without being squeezed or corralled into taking the wrong line over the tramlines.

In relation to previous insinuation of a conspiracy in the links I posted yesterday all cases were documented and the Adelaide Police themselves reported the 6 serious injuries in a 9 month period associated with cyclist and tram line interaction's in that city. Again, were this frequency of serious injury happening to pedestrian's (who arguably make up a larger cohort who travel through a typical city environment daily than cyclist's) where hazardous intersection's are identified it should be highlighted and action to implement hazard/danger mitigation recommended/applied.

Chuchote

The sensible thing would be for tram tracks to have self-cleaning reflective strips running parallel, if that's possible. As well as running any bike lanes across at a sufficient angle for safety, of course - preferably a right-angle.

average_runner

Veloce150 wrote: »

They're invisible in the dark when it's raining and are positioned at a tricky junction with many issues such as overtaking traffic, drugged up J-walkers, ordinary random pedestrians, aggressive bus drivers and busses illegally parked in the Cycle lane where you enter Eden Quay.

They'll become really dangerous when they remove the filler when the Luas becomes operational.

What's bus on parked illegally on eden quay got to do with the tram lines?

Was on the bike at Westmoreland st this morning, cyclist came behind me and went straight thru red light, garda was just waiting for him. Take it he gave him a fine

Moflojo

average_runner wrote: »

Was on the bike at Westmoreland st this morning, cyclist came behind me and went straight thru red light, garda was just waiting for him. Take it he gave him a fine

OleRodrigo

Granolite wrote: »

.

In relation to previous insinuation of a conspiracy in the links I posted yesterday all cases were documented and the Adelaide Police themselves reported the 6 serious injuries in a 9 month period associated with cyclist and tram line interaction's in that city. Again, were this frequency of serious injury happening to pedestrian's (who arguably make up a larger cohort who travel through a typical city environment daily than cyclist's) where hazardous intersection's are identified it should be highlighted and action to implement hazard/danger mitigation recommended/applied.

We don't know anything about those injuries, what happened or who was at fault. For all we know there could have been 6 incidents in 9 months out of thousands of bike journeys, something that would change the framing of that news report. So until the facts are established your links don't amount to much except as tabloid click bait. Just to illustrate this point:

Melbourne City Council's principal traffic engineer is giving evidence this afternoon about why the council each day allowed an average 5000 cyclists, 1700 trams, thousands of taxis and hundreds of delivery vehicles to all cycling compete for space on one of the city's main north-south thoroughfares.

5000 cyclists X 20 ( working days ) x 9 months is 900000 cycling journeys with one fatal accident that may or may not have been caused by a tram track, and 5 that we don't know the facts on. Nonetheless, 6 incidents out of 900000 doesn't suggest a design problem.

Also, you cant compare cycling to walking. There is much more required of a cyclist to engage with road infrastructure and moving traffic - there is a certain competence assumed (quite fairly), so you cant compare the two.

What you also seem to miss is that the Luas extension works and other planned changes in the city center will reduce the amount of motor traffic. So its disingenuous to make a point about future conditions based on any current traffic situation.

magicbastarder

OT, but 1,700 trams a day is a hell of a lot of trams. that's nearly one a minute, assuming consistent 24 hour operation. so more frequent than that assuming reduced service at night.

Weepsie

What you also seem to miss is that the Luas extension works and other planned changes in the city center will reduce the amount of motor traffic. So its disingenuous to make a point about future conditions based on any current traffic situation.

I've no doubt that some plans will eventually reduce motorised traffic, but I'm not hopeful that the Luas extension works is one of them. The stations are not to the benefit of a huge amount of the commuters coming from Cabra apparently as they're a bit out of the way compared to others modes available. It basically doesn't serve phibsborough at all. It may stop it getting any worse, particularly as Grangegorman grows, but it might not do a lot to reduce existing flow on its own.

magicbastarder

there was a lot of debate on the commuting forum too about how beneficial luas BXD will be, in that its benefit will be outweighed by the disruption to buses, which carry a hell of a lot more passengers through the city centre than the luas ever will.

average_runner

Moflojo wrote: »

And why didn't you post that for the ones about buses on eden quay????

Moflojo

average_runner wrote: »

And why didn't you post that for the ones about buses on eden quay????

The original point Veloce150 was making was about the various elements which combine to make the junction tricky, including how one's passage through the junction can be affected by buses parked illegally in the bike lane on Eden Quay, which is beside the junction. It's a fair point with a logical connection:

Veloce150 wrote: »

They're invisible in the dark when it's raining and are positioned at a tricky junction with many issues such as overtaking traffic, drugged up J-walkers, ordinary random pedestrians, aggressive bus drivers and busses illegally parked in the Cycle lane where you enter Eden Quay.

When you chose to target the Eden Quay element of the point, what you were actually committing was an...

OleRodrigo

Moflojo

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Easy now.

average_runner

Just incase you don't know.


This is not the American football forum, so keep the american football stuff out of it.

Come on mods

Alek

This is not the American football forum, so keep the american football stuff out of it.

I'd start with keeping logical fallacies out.

Granolite

OleRodrigo wrote: »

We don't know anything about those injuries, what happened or who was at fault. For all we know there could have been 6 incidents in 9 months out of thousands of bike journeys, something that would change the framing of that news report. So until the facts are established your links don't amount to much except as tabloid click bait. Just to illustrate this point:



5000 cyclists X 20 ( working days ) x 9 months is 900000 cycling journeys with one fatal accident that may or may not have been caused by a tram track, and 5 that we don't know the facts on. Nonetheless, 6 incidents out of 900000 doesn't suggest a design problem.

Also, you cant compare cycling to walking. There is much more required of a cyclist to engage with road infrastructure and moving traffic - there is a certain competence assumed (quite fairly), so you cant compare the two.

What you also seem to miss is that the Luas extension works and other planned changes in the city center will reduce the amount of motor traffic. So its disingenuous to make a point about future conditions based on any current traffic situation.

I posted the links you pour cold water over to draw attention to another poster that all was not cuddly and nice with people's experiences cycling over tramlines in other countries. I think the news report's and the sources they draw from are reliable and real incident's and demonstrate that there are a significant number or frequency of incident's involving cyclists being hurt navigating tramlines in other city environment's.

In relation to your suggestion that risks will reduce as motor transport use in the city tails off I wouldn't share your optimism and would prefer to deal in the here and now and as well as that view cyclist and pedestrians as worthy of equal representation in terms of what our public transport infrastructural design facilitators should consider and mitigate for. that should be an engineering design 101 in this day and age.

A fact that you seem to miss is that people are and may be increasingly discouraged from cycling in the city centre if we allow a city centre environment be created where critical junctions and traffic corridors pose increased requirements for aligned manual dexterity and spatial awareness skills to navigate safely. Borrowing your own crystal ball there is a cohort of people - not served by the Luas as Weepsie points out - who would rather drive into the city than cycle as a result of negative experiences cycling previously.

OleRodrigo

Granolite wrote: »

A fact that you seem to miss is that people are and may be increasingly discouraged from cycling in the city centre if we allow a city centre environment be created where critical junctions and traffic corridors pose increased requirements for aligned manual dexterity and spatial awareness skills to navigate safely. Borrowing your own crystal ball there is a cohort of people - not served by the Luas as Weepsie points out - who would rather drive into the city than cycle as a result of negative experiences cycling previously.

People will continue to be discouraged from cycling when there is no dedicated cycling Infrastructure for them, and when there are too many motor vehicles sharing the same space. For older people and parents with young kinds, this is understandable.

A massive Infrastructure project for separated cycleways, just like what the Netherlands built in the 70s, is unlikely so the best we can hope for is a hybrid strategy of sporadic pieces of cycling Infrastructure, increased public transport options and disincentives for private car use between the canals.

The long term aim is increased pedestrianization of the city center ( College Green, Parnell Square, reduced flow on O'Connell Street, to begin with ) so there is every reason to be optimistic because Dublin can never be a city for high volumes of motor traffic, quite the opposite.

In the meantime, while these plans are being executed, crossing a track at an angle and being careful of wet metal surfaces, is not a big ask.

My own view is that people are too fond of whinging over nothing, and don't realize how good we have it, or how much ability they have to solve their own problems, so that's where I'm coming from on this matter. I've been living and cycling in the inner city center for over 15 years. The standard of cycling and driving here is terrible.

MB Lacey

Having had a nasty crash on wet luas tracks (from rain) along James' St, I admit I now have a fear of wet luas tracks.
I avoid James' St now in the rain, but I'd often take the right turn onto the quays from Westmoreland/ O'Connell bridge where the new Luas tracks are, and I'm nervous.

When I had my luas track crash I was cycling over the tracks at an angle but still the wheels came from under me, it was awful.
My knees still have nerve damage months later.
I've been cycling for decades but obviously I'm a crap cyclist in comparison to some Legends of cycling posting here.
However I don't mind being in the gang of cyclists who skid on wet metal and cannot anticipate every possible situation likely to affect their balance :rolleyes:

OleRodrigo

^ Those photos have nothing to do with anything, MB Lacey.

Moflojo

OleRodrigo wrote: »

^ Those photos have nothing to do with anything, MB Lacey.

That Garmin accident was caused by a wet metal manhole cover. The riders were travelling in a straight line. If a pro cycling team can be undone by a piece of wet metal then what chance have us mere mortals?

MB Lacey

OleRodrigo wrote: »

^ Those photos have nothing to do with anything, MB Lacey.

Yes they do.
Cyclists skid on wet metal irrelevant of their level of proficiency.

Dan Martin out of Giro D'italia after slipping on wet metal manhole cover in Belfast

magicbastarder

sure even the luas has sand dispensers built in to prevent the wheels slipping on the tracks.

OleRodrigo

MB Lacey wrote: »

Yes they do.
Cyclists skid on wet metal irrelevant of their level of proficiency.

Dan Martin out of Giro D'italia after slipping on wet metal manhole cover in Belfast

Did he blame anyone else but himself ? Probably not.

Did he have a word with his mechanic for fitting the wrong tyres for the weather conditions he found himself training in? We don't know.

Is crossing a wet 50 cm diameter man hole cover different than a tram track ? Definitely. You avoid making contact with the former whilst crossing the latter at a good clip and angle. (And make sure you don't have gatorskins )

Are any of the above approaches unique to pro cyclists ? You would hope not.

Weepsie

magicbastarder wrote: »

sure even the luas has sand dispensers built in to prevent the wheels slipping on the tracks.

Just looked that up. Apparently most locomotives have a sandbox to disperse sand into track and wheels to improve traction. Interesting

MB Lacey

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Is crossing a wet 50 cm diameter man hole cover different than a tram track ? Definitely. You avoid making contact with the former whilst crossing the latter at a good clip and angle. .

MB Lacey wrote: »

When I had my luas track crash I was cycling over the tracks at an angle but still the wheels came from under me

Despite crossing the luas tracks at an angle my wheels still slid on the wet metal tracks.