Luas Tracks - Be Careful out there

magicbastarder

i would use the luas often at the central park luas stop, which is built on a very slight slope. i've seen the sand being dispensed by the uphill tram on occasion when pulling out of the station.

OleRodrigo

MB Lacey wrote: »

Despite crossing the luas tracks at an angle my wheels still slid on the wet metal tracks.

I've been crossing luas tracks since they were laid down and never once had a problem.

With wet tracks, make sure the angle is tighter and that you go over them faster. Or bunny hop if conditions allow. A loose angle on the front wheel may end up looser by the time the rear wheel makes contact.

Failing that, stop, get off and wheel across, if you haven't built up enough momentum to cross safely.

Moflojo

OleRodrigo wrote: »

I've been crossing luas tracks since they were laid down and never once had a problem.

With wet tracks, make sure the angle is tighter and that you go over them faster. Or bunny hop if conditions allow. A loose angle on the front wheel may end up looser by the time the rear wheel makes contact.

Failing that, stop, get off and wheel across, if you haven't built up enough momentum to cross safely.

I'm looking forward to the RSA's new bunny-hop training programme!

"Be safe. Be seen. And hop like hell."

Granolite

OleRodrigo wrote: »

People will continue to be discouraged from cycling when there is no dedicated cycling Infrastructure for them, and when there are too many motor vehicles sharing the same space. For older people and parents with young kinds, this is understandable.

A massive Infrastructure project for separated cycleways, just like what the Netherlands built in the 70s, is unlikely so the best we can hope for is a hybrid strategy of sporadic pieces of cycling Infrastructure, increased public transport options and disincentives for private car use between the canals.

The long term aim is increased pedestrianization of the city center ( College Green, Parnell Square, reduced flow on O'Connell Street, to begin with ) so there is every reason to be optimistic because Dublin can never be a city for high volumes of motor traffic, quite the opposite.

In the meantime, while these plans are being executed, crossing a track at an angle and being careful of wet metal surfaces, is not a big ask.

My own view is that people are too fond of whinging over nothing, and don't realize how good we have it, or how much ability they have to solve their own problems, so that's where I'm coming from on this matter. I've been living and cycling in the inner city center for over 15 years. The standard of cycling and driving here is terrible.

Generally I can agree with your overall sentiments to a large degree. I do believe we can cater for and apply better standards if we are cogniscant of these conflicts from the start. I sincerely hope I am wrong but recent conversations with people I know who commute by bike through the city would worry me (i.e anecdotal stories of falls and injuries sustained) and hence why I have concerns about the eventual impact once the implementation / roll out of the Luas cross city commences. The Luas cross city line crosses a wider swathe of roads/streets that cater for other traffic than the two existing Luas lines to date. In so doing whether it be cutting through road at oblique or sharper angles the average cyclist is being exposed to a greater number of potential `slip' zones, and arguably making cycling in the city a less relaxing and enjoyable endeavor. Should that be or should that not be the case for the average commuting cyclist? Maybe we ask too much and had it too good for too long?

Certainly compromises must be accepted where environmental, planning, economic and design/engineering constraints converge. I do think the situation presenting itself at a small number of Luas corridor ,traffic/bike lane interaction points could have been better considered with cyclist (people) safety in mind and I hope my concerns and scenario's/incident's presented by others above can still be mitigated for with adaptative design in month's and year's to come, whatever form that may take.

Alek

...and try to keep your front wheel straight. Even small adjustment for balance may end in slipping if you go slow - you don't need to be leaning into a turn. While going fast bike has more momentum and balance.

(Bunny hopping in the wet in presence of metal elements can be disastrous if your name doesn't start with "Danny" and ends with "MacAskill" :P )

Wishbone Ash

magicbastarder wrote: »

sure even the luas has sand dispensers built in to prevent the wheels slipping on the tracks.

...but the average bike doesn't run on metal wheels so it's not really relevant.

Veloce150

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Failing that, stop, get off and wheel across, if you haven't built up enough momentum to cross safely.

In the middle of O'Connell Bridge, in the dark and wet, with a taxi 6 inches off your back wheel and a bus coming up your inside pushing you towards a stream of frustrated drivers on your right?

Anyone who is not seriously fearful of crossing O'Connel Bridge Northbound, on a bicycle, heading for Eden Quay, does not undersand the risks.

Moflojo

Veloce150 wrote: »

In the middle of O'Connell Bridge, in the dark and wet, with a taxi 6 inches off your back wheel and a bus coming up your inside pushing you towards a stream of frustrated drivers on your right?

Anyone who is nor seriously fearful of crossing O'Connel Bridge Northbound, on a bicycle, heading for Eden Quay, doss not undersand the risks.

Don't forget that before you even reach the bridge you have to pass through the pinch point gauntlet at College Green before plunging into the dark abyss of Westmoreland Street.

All in all very unpleasant and completely unfriendly to cyclists. I've decided to avoid it until after the Luas works are finished.

magicbastarder

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

...but the average bike doesn't run on metal wheels so it's not really relevant.

ah, it wasn't really intended to be a serious contribution to the discussion.

Veloce150

Moflojo wrote: »

Don't forget that before you even reach the bridge you have to pass through the pinch point gauntlet at College Green before plunging into the dark abyss of Westmoreland Street.

All in all very unpleasant and completely unfriendly to cyclists. I've decided to avoid it until after the Luas works are finished.

When to works are finsihed, it will be even more fun as you race the Luas on the new line running down Westmoreland Street (on your right) before skillfully sprinting across the tram tracks (and that Luas) on O'Connell Bridge heading East.

Maybe turning right onto Fleet Street and heading for Tara Street would be safer, then?

OleRodrigo

Veloce150 wrote: »

In the middle of O'Connell Bridge, in the dark and wet, with a taxi 6 inches off your back wheel and a bus coming up your inside pushing you towards a stream of frustrated drivers on your right?

Anyone who is not seriously fearful of crossing O'Connel Bridge Northbound, on a bicycle, heading for Eden Quay, does not undersand the risks.

Like I said earlier, if you take the right position on Westmoreland St you wont have a problem with the right turn towards Eden Quay.

The bus on your left is heading up O'Connell Street so its not your concern. The traffic on the right wont be there if you take an assertive position on the right turning lane, nor will the tracks be an issue on your left because you crossed them at an angle to take a good position turning right.

Edit: Also, you wont need to get off the bike to cross the tracks because there is plenty of distance to build up momentum after the lights turn green at Westmoreland St/ O'Connell St bridge.

Veloce150

OleRodrigo wrote: »

The bus on your left is heading up O'Connell Street so its not your concern.

The bus on my left huge private coach coming up the 'straight-on' lane but trying to muscle in on the 'right-turn' lane to turn down Eden Quay.

To get a good line on the safe side of the tram tracks, one has to swing right to traverse them at a good angle and then change tack back to left to ride parallel (and to the right) of the tracks. Meanwhile, the bus (or taxi) interprets one's traversal of the tram track as an intention to use the far-right lane and comes up your inside.

Getting a good line on that lane depends on how clear the road is in front and how quiickly one can attain a safe, assertive position after the lights change....assuming first that you did not have to avoid a car breaking the lights coming from Burgh Quay or a pedestrian making a dash for it just as the lights turn green.

OleRodrigo

Veloce150 wrote: »

The bus on my left huge private coach coming up the 'straight-on' lane but trying to muscle in on the 'right-turn' lane to turn down Eden Quay.

To get a good line on the safe side of the tram tracks, one has to swing right to traverse them at a good angle and then change tack back to left to ride parallel (and to the right) of the tracks. Meanwhile, the bus (or taxi) interprets one's traversal of the tram track as an intention to use the far-right lane and comes up your inside.

Getting a good line on that lane depends on how clear the road is in front and how quiickly one can attain a safe, assertive position after the lights change....assuming first that you did not have to avoid a car breaking the lights coming from Burgh Quay or a pedestrian making a dash for it just as the lights turn green.

I still don't see what the issue is tbh - its just common or garden traffic in the city center. Nobody wants to run you over. Once you're in the right lane and take an assertive position when needs be.

tomasrojo

I'm not well informed about the new junctions with tram tracks, but the real problem I can see is that the strategy you've used every day for a year or more suddenly doesn't work, and down you go. That's what happened to me. It can happen to other people, no matter how well they think they understand this issue. Tram tracks in heavy rain are incredibly slippery, and you can slip even if you cross at right angles. Even if crossing at right angles is a 100% successful strategy, you may not be able to get a right angle one day in the rain.

I have no idea what remedies are possible, but it's not unreasonable to expect a road design that doesn't violently throw people to the ground unpredictably (and let me just say again before it's brought up: you can slip on tram tracks even if you cross at right angles). Anyway, I don't think anyone has said it's impossible to overcome this problem (though maybe it is); the emphasis seems to be on how people who think the problem should be addressed are crybabies. Well, that's crass, and a bit weirdly lacking in empathy.

magicbastarder

yep, i keep hearing the phrase 'fault' being repeated on this thread. it's the job of a good designer to reduce the number of possible accidents/incidents, regardless of fault.
if i come a cropper on a particular road layout, on a simple level, it's easy to find me at fault and in a way which is not trivial to refute. but if the road layout could have been better designed, you can't say the designer is not also at 'fault', albeit in a way which would probably not stand up in court in a damages case, for example.

Arthurdaly

OleRodrigo wrote: »

I still don't see what the issue is tbh - its just common or garden traffic in the city center. Nobody wants to run you over. Once you're in the right lane and take an assertive position when needs be.

I'd disagree with pretty much everything you said in this thread. I have ridden hundreds of thousands of miles on a bike through commuting and road racing. That particular stretch of road is plain and simple dangerous and for an inexperienced rider I can see how they would come a cropper. To get the correct angle to cross the tracks you need to put yourself in harms way. I've only been up that road a few times but if felt very dangerous.

Mercian Pro

Moflojo wrote: »

As posted previously, this shows the O'Connell Bridge junctions post Luas and College Green works. As a cyclist coming down Westmoreland Street and heading for Eden Quay, you would be on the far left in the (presumably mandatory) cyclepath. Unless the traffic lights have a right turn phase to allow buses and cyclists proceed while other traffic including Luas trams are held back, getting across safely to Eden Quay will be virtually impossible.

As for avoiding all this by heading to Tara Street and Butt Bridge, frying pan and fire come to mind.

Jimoslimos

I cross several train (not tram) lines and find the best technique is to stand up out of the saddle slightly and freewheel across. AVOID pedalling if possible since you're likely to lose traction and slide.

My nemesis though are metal cattle grids across a cycle path. I've come a cropper on one particularly dangerous one - immediately after a sharp left turn on an incline. Nearly as dangerous from the other direction - downhill braking before a blind junction. :eek:

GiantTcr

Saw a load of people crash as a result of not focusing on the luas lines, when I was heading into the dublin bike ride in september on the way into smithfield. Stay well away from them!

Watch how the Giant Alpecin team attack tram lines while training in Australia!

From 12 seconds in the following video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KXO1PuOkjx0

Muahahaha

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I cross several train (not tram) lines and find the best technique is to stand up out of the saddle slightly and freewheel across. AVOID pedalling if possible since you're likely to lose traction and slide.

My nemesis though are metal cattle grids across a cycle path. I've come a cropper on one particularly dangerous one - immediately after a sharp left turn on an incline. Nearly as dangerous from the other direction - downhill braking before a blind junction. :eek:

This is key, if you pedal across tram tracks then the chances of you coming off go way up. I learnt that lesson on a motorbike years back, now I just freewheel across them.

I started a thread on this very topic back in September and the place I had seen a cyclist come off was OConnell St lower. On this thread a good few more have said theyve seen cyclists come a cropper on this stretch so it clearly has become a problem.

Wishbone Ash

I see that a warning image of a falling cyclist has been painted between the tram lines on O'Connell Bridge. It seems a bit far forward - may have been more appropriate near the start of the bridge.

Weepsie

Walking up Dawson Street today I took the opportunity to look at the track there. Nigh on impossible to cross the Luas track if turning right at an angle that would be considered generally safe.

Will traffic be able to turn left in future again once the works are finished, or will it be right turn only, with the left reserved for the LUAS

Weepsie

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I see that a warning image of a falling cyclist has been painted between the tram lines on O'Connell Bridge. It seems a bit far forward - may have been more appropriate near the start of the bridge.

This the image. Looks nearly like that was a guerilla attempt at warning cyclists rather than anything official.

OleRodrigo

It does capture how funny looking going on your ear is.

Chuchote

Muahahaha wrote: »

This is key, if you pedal across tram tracks then the chances of you coming off go way up. I learnt that lesson on a motorbike years back, now I just freewheel across them.

I started a thread on this very topic back in September and the place I had seen a cyclist come off was OConnell St lower. On this thread a good few more have said theyve seen cyclists come a cropper on this stretch so it clearly has become a problem.

Realised some days after reading this that the mere thought of pedalling when going across tram lines made the roof of my mouth go all crinkly and the inside of my arms goosebumpy with dread. Where did I learn that you have to freewheel across them (or if you absolutely must pedal, give one brief pump at the pedals)? Coming off the bike whap onto the side of my face as a kid in Dalkey? Back-carrier with my big brother and learning by watching?

Mercian Pro

Weepsie wrote: »

Walking up Dawson Street today I took the opportunity to look at the track there. Nigh on impossible to cross the Luas track if turning right at an angle that would be considered generally safe.

Will traffic be able to turn left in future again once the works are finished, or will it be right turn only, with the left reserved for the LUAS

One of the problems in trying to anticipate where the most dangerous bike/tram tracks intersections are going to be is that there is very little information available on where cycling will and won't be permitted and whether it will be on-road or separated. The stretch of Lr Grafton Street leading into Nassau Street is part of the East/West Central Spine in the NTA Cycle Network Plan for Dublin but it's hard to see how cycling is going to be facilitated along with trams, buses and taxis. It would be really useful if DCC provided plans, similar to the Liffey Route above, covering the full new Luas route. It would be nice to think that this was done before the line of the tracks was finalised but, from what can be seen on the streets, bikes and safe cycle routes were the least of their concerns.