41 new ICR centre cars

Jamie2k9

So this indicates the hybrid order has been indefinitely delayed then?

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

I wonder how long these'll have with their original powerpacks before they get converted to hybrid!

perhapse they may have the hybrid powerpack from new? i would be surprised if they arrive with the old powerpack and are then upgraded but this is ireland so anything is possible i guess.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So this indicates the hybrid order has been indefinitely delayed then?

i'd hope not. 41 cars are better then no cars but they will only be a small dent in what is probably needed.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

perhapse they may have the hybrid powerpack from new? i would be surprised if they arrive with the old powerpack and are then upgraded but this is ireland so anything is possible i guess.

They couldn't do that. Firstly a full unit needs to be hybrid and secondly nobody knows the problems it might cause.

The trails are going to take 2 years on a single unit. I guess depending on delivery some could have it fitted only if units here are fitted at the same time. Could even be tender issues with a hybrid pack fitted.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

i'd hope not. 41 cars are better then no cars but they will only be a small dent in what is probably needed.

Clearly they are, NTA would never have approved this if they were going to arrive by 2022/23.

Edit - a delay could be a good thing, they might do the right thing and go EMU once Maynooth/M3 are done.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So this indicates the hybrid order has been indefinitely delayed then?

No the hybrid order will be tendered in the new year.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

No the hybrid order will be tendered in the new year.

Yeah but still going to take years to build, test and certify?

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yeah but still going to take years to build, test and certify?

Naturally.

SeanW

One thing that might be good on these new cars (although it might mean new design, crash certification etc) is if they had some suburban features, not just more bike racks etc, but also quarter doors instead of end door vestibules, this in addition to more standing space if the trains are to be used on crush loaded services. So on a train of IC cars that were running a suburban commuter service, you'd have 3 or 4 IC cars with end doors, and in the middle somewhere, a commuter-ised 22k with standing room, quarter doors and a bike rack.

The Mark 2D carriages were like that IIRC, some had middle doors in addition to their end doors and though they were a minority, you'd sometimes have a train with one or two of them mixed in.

GM228

SeanW wrote: »

One thing that might be good on these new cars (although it might mean new design, crash certification etc) is if they had some suburban features, not just more bike racks etc, but also quarter doors instead of end door vestibules, this in addition to more standing space if the trains are to be used on crush loaded services. So on a train of IC cars that were running a suburban commuter service, you'd have 3 or 4 IC cars with end doors, and in the middle somewhere, a commuter-ised 22k with standing room, quarter doors and a bike rack.

The Mark 2D carriages were like that IIRC, some had middle doors in addition to their end doors and though they were a minority, you'd sometimes have a train with one or two of them mixed in.

The centre cars will be the same as current, with the exception that there may be extra seats, but this is not known yet.

The Mk 2s you talk about were the composites, there were nine of them, they were half first and half standards, hence the centre door to separate the different classes.

devnull

GM228 wrote: »

The centre cars will be the same as current, with the exception that there may be extra seats, but this is not known yet.

The Mk 2s you talk about were the composites, there were nine of them, they were half first and half standards, hence the centre door to separate the different classes.

Be interesting to see if there is any differences between the new cars and the old cars they are surrounded by when they're inserted in or they are going to be exactly the same so you won't be able to tell apart from them being less worn.

Remember when the LUAS 3000 range had new segments put in, they had different seating arrangements, different window shapes different PIS screens and a few other minor differences which made it obvious it was a new segment.

IE 222

Whats the overall plan in terms of train lengths. Im guessing the obvious thing to do first of all is to make some 7, 8 or 9 car sets to remove the need of doubling sets. Is there a preferred set legnth obviously some 3 and 4 car formations would need to remain due to operational restrictions and low demand services.

How many sets could be freed if the need of doubling sets up was replaced with longer sets.

Apart from Connolly services what IC services on the Hueston side are crying out for more capacity at the moment or is the bulk of these for commuter services.

How many 2900s could be freed by running Dundalk and Longford services limited stops/semi express with just 22000s.

Jamie2k9

Whats the overall plan in terms of train lengths. Im guessing the obvious thing to do first of all is to make some 7, 8 or 9 car sets to remove the need of doubling sets. Is there a preferred set legnth obviously some 3 and 4 car formations would need to remain due to operational restrictions and low demand services.

There is no difference to length sets. They won't make 8/9 car sets because they can only operate very limited services. Extending a single set to a 7 car might be a problem. I don't know but think any option to extend to 7 would require a B1 car. Personally there is very limited demand for regular 7 car sets at Heuston apart from weekends.

Recken the set up will be something like this:
Return 10 6 car premier class sets to 6 car (10) - 378 seats
Return 5 6 car high capacity sets to 6 car (10) - 408 seats
Convert 20 4 car sets to 5 car (20) - 336 seats
Reduce the current 28 3 car to probally 18 3 car and 10 4 car - 190/265 seats

Sligo/Longford changes to standard 5 car (apart from existing 7 car).
Rosslare mix 4/5 car.
Limerick changes to standard 5 car (direct services).
Tralee shuttle changes to 5 car shuttle and 6 direct.
Galway/Waterford mostly 6 car sets, 4/5 off peak.
Westport mostly 5 or 3x4 car.
Cork 6 car.
Portlaoise/PPT 5/6/7 car.

Ideally removing 29 off Rosslare/Longford should cater for M3 Parkway with Maynooth/N Commuter still having the odd ICR.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is no difference to length sets. They won't make 8/9 car sets because they can only operate very limited services. Extending a single set to a 7 car might be a problem. I don't know but think any option to extend to 7 would require a B1 car. Personally there is very limited demand for regular 7 car sets at Heuston apart from weekends.

Recken the set up will be something like this:
Return 10 6 car premier class sets to 6 car (10) - 378 seats
Return 5 6 car high capacity sets to 6 car (10) - 408 seats
Convert 20 4 car sets to 5 car (20) - 336 seats
Reduce the current 28 3 car to probally 18 3 car and 10 4 car - 190/265 seats

Sligo/Longford changes to standard 5 car (apart from existing 7 car).
Rosslare mix 4/5 car.
Limerick changes to standard 5 car (direct services).
Tralee shuttle changes to 5 car shuttle and 6 direct.
Galway/Waterford mostly 6 car sets, 4/5 off peak.
Westport mostly 5 or 3x4 car.
Cork 6 car.
Portlaoise/PPT 5/6/7 car.

Ideally removing 29 off Rosslare/Longford should cater for M3 Parkway with Maynooth/N Commuter still having the odd ICR.

Is there not an opportunity by creating more longer sets that more sets can be created while also resolving capacity issues. I thought the overall need was for more trains than longer ones in the long term. Simply adding 1 car to each set pretty much will have little impact IMO.


Many services still run with 3×3, 3x4 or 4x4 at times. Obviously ordering the right intermediate cars to allow longer set would be key, id imagine a mixture of high capacity and standard would be sought. This will not only offer extra capacity but can also offer more frequency by freeing up more driving cars as well.

Personally i think by the time these cars are delivered the demand for 7 and even 8 car sets will increase. You may still have a case where some off peak services run with an over supply of capacity but in the long run it returns a better benefit.

kc56

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is no difference to length sets. They won't make 8/9 car sets because they can only operate very limited services. Extending a single set to a 7 car might be a problem. I don't know but think any option to extend to 7 would require a B1 car. Personally there is very limited demand for regular 7 car sets at Heuston apart from weekends.

Recken the set up will be something like this:
Return 10 6 car premier class sets to 6 car (10) - 378 seats
Return 5 6 car high capacity sets to 6 car (10) - 408 seats
Convert 20 4 car sets to 5 car (20) - 336 seats
Reduce the current 28 3 car to probally 18 3 car and 10 4 car - 190/265 seats

.

That adds up to 50 cars. Only 41 are being ordered.

Jamie2k9

Is there not an opportunity by creating more longer sets that more sets can be created while also resolving capacity issues. I thought the overall need was for more trains than longer ones in the long term. Simply adding 1 car to each set pretty much will have little impact IMO.


Many services still run with 3×3, 3x4 or 4x4 at times. Obviously ordering the right intermediate cars to allow longer set would be key, id imagine a mixture of high capacity and standard would be sought. This will not only offer extra capacity but can also offer more frequency by freeing up more driving cars as well.

Personally i think by the time these cars are delivered the demand for 7 and even 8 car sets will increase. You may still have a case where some off peak services run with an over supply of capacity but in the long run it returns a better benefit.

There is no schedule 4x4. There is only a 3-4 7 car ops ex Heuston most days and only one of those is actually based on demand. The same in Connolly there is a 7 car on Maynooth, Sligo and N Commuter once or twice a day.

Ordering extra coaches will not deliver a massive amount of enhanced frequency nor do I think its the objective. Personally I don't think they will add a 7 car set, reduces flexibility when they can run 3&4.

That adds up to 50 cars. Only 41 are being ordered.

So it does, guess less 5 cars and more 4s or more likely they won't reform the high capacity sets.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is no schedule 4x4. There is only a 3-4 7 car ops ex Heuston most days and only one of those is actually based on demand. The same in Connolly there is a 7 car on Maynooth, Sligo and N Commuter once or twice a day.

Ordering extra coaches will not deliver a massive amount of enhanced frequency nor do I think its the objective. Personally I don't think they will add a 7 car set, reduces flexibility when they can run 3&4.



So it does, guess less 5 cars and more 4s or more likely they won't reform the high capacity sets.

I understand current demand and timetabling may not require such long trains now but by the time these extra cars arrive we should see a large increase in demand and passenger numbers overall. The 2700 project was aimed at adding extra frequency and capacity to commuter services so I can't see just adding capacity to current frequencies resolving many issues.

Running a 3 x 4 under utilize driving cars. Personally i think it would better to increase these and create two full sets.

I've seen 8 cars in service before but maybe they were specials or short notice replacements. Longford, Dundalk, Drogheda and if PPT keeps growing would definitely benefit from 8 car trains in the near future.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

I understand current demand and timetabling may not require such long trains now but by the time these extra cars arrive we should see a large increase in demand and passenger numbers overall. The 2700 project was aimed at adding extra frequency and capacity to commuter services so I can't see just adding capacity to current frequencies resolving many issues.

Running a 3 x 4 under utilize driving cars. Personally i think it would better to increase these and create two full sets.

I've seen 8 cars in service before but maybe they were specials or short notice replacements. Longford, Dundalk, Drogheda and if PPT keeps growing would definitely benefit from 8 car trains in the near future.

8 cars can only operate very limted services mostly the main stations between Dublin-Cork for exmaple they could not operate PPT, Longford or Dundalk. Remember an 8 22 is longer than an 8 29 by over 20 meters.

tabbey

IE 222 wrote: »

I've seen 8 cars in service before but maybe they were specials or short notice replacements.

Perhaps they were running from Laois Traincare Depot to Heuston Station, to form two separate services from there.

goingnowhere

You can have up to 12 coaches in a ICR formation but the most ever used is 9 which is cleared for Dublin Cork which allows considerable set flexibility (3 + 3 + 3, 4 + 5)

Dublin Sligo is 7 max
Dublin Galway/Westport/Ballina should be 8 max
Dublin Rosslare is 5 max (7 as far as Greystones)
Dublin Waterford is 6 max (7 may be possible if Kllkenny is skipped)
Dublin Limerick is 8 max (but 7 is used typically due platform restrictions in Limerick only 1 platform can take 8)

end of the road

goingnowhere wrote: »

You can have up to 12 coaches in a ICR formation but the most ever used is 9 which is cleared for Dublin Cork which allows considerable set flexibility (3 + 3 + 3, 4 + 5)

Dublin Sligo is 7 max
Dublin Galway/Westport/Ballina should be 8 max
Dublin Rosslare is 5 max (7 as far as Greystones)
Dublin Waterford is 6 max (7 may be possible if Kllkenny is skipped)
Dublin Limerick is 8 max (but 7 is used typically due platform restrictions in Limerick only 1 platform can take 8)

i thought that it is 18 rather then 12?

IE 222

Didn't think 8 car sets were so restricted at intercity stations. Would of thought Dundalk, Longford ect would of been able to handle them with maybe some of the smaller intermediate stations been bypassed.

Seen a 5x4 set in sercive before as well. Im pretty there was a GAA special this year with one.

Pretty sure they can run up to 18cars.

Anyway I still think 7 car sets would be useful and in need by the time this order arrives.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

i thought that it is 18 rather then 12?

12 are probably only cleared, I think 10 is the max used at the minute but no in service.

Dublin Limerick is 8 max (but 7 is used typically due platform restrictions in Limerick only 1 platform can take 8)

To lazy to check but either Ballybrophy or Templemore limit them to 7 but 8 can operate. It could be 9 cars I am thinking of.

Didn't think 8 car sets were so restricted at intercity stations. Would of thought Dundalk, Longford ect would of been able to handle them with maybe some of the smaller intermediate stations been bypassed.

Yeah all routes could take larger but it would require stops dropped. Another problem is many routes that can take a 7 car a lot of stations have only a single platform capable of handling them.

Captain Chaos

IE 222 wrote: »

Pretty sure they can run up to 18cars. .

Yes they can run in 18 car formation but only in a worst case situation where a 9 car formation may have to rescue a failed 9 car formation.

Like the way DARTs can up to 16 cars, has happened before.

DoctorPan

IE 222 wrote: »

Anyway I still think 7 car sets would be useful and in need by the time this order arrives.

Fixed 7 car sets and above can't work as the depot roads can only handle 6 car lengths without having to split up the sets.

goingnowhere

Good point, the lifting jacks in Portlaoise are setup for a sync lift of 6 coaches

Ireland trains

If these coaches are ordered in 2019, how long would it take them to arrive?

L1011

The decision that the corroded units were banjaxed was in 2009 or so and the replacements arrived 2011. So I'd assume two to three years seeing as they will have to reconfigure production lines etc.

Their website suggests they've done no other DMUs since!

tabbey

L1011 wrote: »

The decision that the corroded units were banjaxed was in 2009 or so and the replacements arrived 2011. So I'd assume two to three years seeing as they will have to reconfigure production lines etc.

Their website suggests they've done no other DMUs since!

Presumably they produced lots of EMUs.

Infini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

8 cars can only operate very limted services mostly the main stations between Dublin-Cork for exmaple they could not operate PPT, Longford or Dundalk. Remember an 8 22 is longer than an 8 29 by over 20 meters.

To put it in perspective 8 DMU cars will fit onto the average Dart Platform but the same platform can only accomidate 7 ICR cars.

IE 222

With all the big orders or leasing been planned in the coming years is there any plans or scope for getting single car units like the 2750 for running the likes of Neagh, Ballina and Waterford - Limerick Jct. Obviously when the 2600 and 2800 come of age 4 car 2900s will be over kill on these routes. Will bi-mode likely come in 2 car sets as well.

Losty Dublin

IE 222 wrote: »

With all the big orders or leasing been planned in the coming years is there any plans or scope for getting single car units like the 2750 for running the likes of Neagh, Ballina and Waterford - Limerick Jct. Obviously when the 2600 and 2800 come of age 4 car 2900s will be over kill on these routes. Will bi-mode likely come in 2 car sets as well.

2751/3 never worked out as they were too small for other duties bar one service, which obviously limits what runs they can and can't do.

tabbey

Losty Dublin wrote: »

2751/3 never worked out as they were too small for other duties bar one service, which obviously limits what runs they can and can't do.

2751 & 2753 ceased single car running for reasons of unreliability, not capacity.

They would be ideal for Nenagh branch, Lk Jn - Waterford, Ballina and perhaps stopping services on mainline routes, allowing intercity services run limited stop.

It always amazes me that bus operators around the world can single engined vehicles reliably, but Irish Rail cannot get two single vehicles to run independently. Rail operators in Britain, France and elsewhere can run single vehicle railcars in much more populated areas, but we cannot do it in Ireland, for fear of mechanical failure.

IE 222

Losty Dublin wrote: »

2751/3 never worked out as they were too small for other duties bar one service, which obviously limits what runs they can and can't do.

What sort of loading is Neagh, Waterford and Ballina getting these days. Surely having some single cars may may make offering some off peak service more viable.

IE 222

Speaking of Ballina how often and when does the Ballina set get swapped out. Is this done via Athlone and Western rail corridor.

Does the set run in service Limerick - Galway and Galway - Athlone and vice versa on return if its transfers via Western corridor.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

Speaking of Ballina how often and when does the Ballina set get swapped out. Is this done via Athlone and Western rail corridor.

Does the set run in service Limerick - Galway and Galway - Athlone and vice versa on return if its transfers via Western corridor.

Once a week (usually a Thursday) and it operates via WRC. Its empty between Ballina-Galway and swapped with a set arriving/departing Galway for Limerick.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Once a week (usually a Thursday) and it operates via WRC. Its empty between Ballina-Galway and swapped with a set arriving/departing Galway for Limerick.

Is this during the day or done after the day's services. Does Ballina have refuelling services.

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

Is this during the day or done after the day's services. Does Ballina have refuelling services.

In between services:
Galway-Ballina 08.20-12.57
Ballina-Galway 11.37-15.01

As for refueling not sure but probally mobile service or something in place.

Losty Dublin

tabbey wrote: »

2751 & 2753 ceased single car running for reasons of unreliability, not capacity.

They would be ideal for Nenagh branch, Lk Jn - Waterford, Ballina and perhaps stopping services on mainline routes, allowing intercity services run limited stop.

Aware that they were phased out for reliability issues. However the impracticality of the units meant that they didn't see much use as single cars. They'd have been okay for a Rosslare-Waterford link but traffic demand was rather different when they were ordered in the mid 90's. Ballina branch services wouldn't have seen use of them given the high numbers it carries peak hours. Also, from time to time the Ballina shuttle was called upon to relieve and even stand in for failed mainline links. It wouldn't have had a hope

tabbey wrote: »

It always amazes me that bus operators around the world can single engined vehicles reliably, but Irish Rail cannot get two single vehicles to run independently. Rail operators in Britain, France and elsewhere can run single vehicle railcars in much more populated areas, but we cannot do it in Ireland, for fear of mechanical failure.

The wear on tear of a road bus isn't a patch on that of a railcar thrice its size. Real apples and orange stuff here.

dowlingm

Getting light/short DMU sets to trigger signal detection can be a bit tricky in some situations too, no? Have certainly seen it mentioned on this side of the pond.

Jamie2k9

Reading in papers this morning the order will be officially made next month. Its only taken around 3 years and another 2 before they enter service.

dowlingm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Reading in papers this morning the order will be officially made next month. Its only taken around 3 years and another 2 before they enter service.

No rush...
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/people-were-gone-demented-i-ll-never-travel-on-irish-rail-again-1.3994455%3fmode=amp

bikeman1

God, the Irish Times has really lowered itself.

"Many passengers are visibly exhausted following their journeys"

I would expect that type of journalism from some of the tabloids. That 09:45 ex Westport is a notorious over crowded train, especially in the summer, as it provides a nice departure time to head up to Dublin. IÉ are totally stretched in terms of capacity.

It is a pity there wasn't a rake of carriages that they kept or small fleet of DMU's to free up ICRs on local duties - oh wait there was but IÉ can't look after their assests!

Jamie2k9

Entry into service now delayed again until 2022. Cabinet have not received or approved memo.

Jem72

This is getting to the point of absurdity. Until they get the order sent, every Irish Rail board member, every NTA board member and every cabinet minister should be forced to spend 10 hours a week on the Dublin commuter network.

They'd get the finger out fairly rapidly then.

L1011

Cabinet approved today. Only three years later. We'd probably have them by now if it had been done quicker - they still won't be quick to build and ship from Korea but they're not going to have the same commissioning delays as a completely new class.

Phil.x

L1011 wrote: »

Cabinet approved today. Only three years later. We'd probably have them by now if it had been done quicker - they still won't be quick to build and ship from Korea but they're not going to have the same commissioning delays as a completely new class.

How much is it going to cost.
Why didn't the get 50 or 60

CatInABox

Good to see any progress on this, if a "little" bit late.

end of the road

Phil.x wrote: »

How much is it going to cost.
Why didn't the get 50 or 60

from what i understand this is just an exercising of an option to buy centre cars which was part of the original contract for the original orders, that option only allows for 41 cars.
i presume if they wanted more they would have to put it out to tender, and to be honest even if they could have ordered 50 or 60 they wouldn't do very much for dublin suburban where the major issues are, as these are long distance trains, some of which are being used currently on suburban services but are struggling heavily with doing so.

Phil.x

end of the road wrote: »

from what i understand this is just an exercising of an option to buy centre cars which was part of the original contract for the original orders, that option only allows for 41 cars.
i presume if they wanted more they would have to put it out to tender, and to be honest even if they could have ordered 50 or 60 they wouldn't do very much for dublin suburban where the major issues are, as these are long distance trains, some of which are being used currently on suburban services but are struggling heavily with doing so.

Im on one of these intercity type trains now going to clonsilla from docklands, so with this order is this the end on electrification of the maynooth/m3 line.