Apple Pay now available in Ireland

cnocbui

ukoda wrote: »

I'm actually surprised Apple lancuhed without the 2 'big' banks in Ireland. I had assumed a prerequisite was AIB and BOI onboard, AIB at a minimum as it's fairly dominant. Apple tend to hold back on things until they are happy with them and can boast things like "Apple Pay is available to 90% of the population on day 1 of launch"

I guess they decided to run with KBC and Ulster Bank as they didn't want to be too far behind Android Pay.

It also gives them leverage with the remaining banks as they won't want to be left behind and I can see them getting hammered on social media with "when is Apple Pay coming"

Why are you surprised? Apple Pay cost's the banks lost revenue. The only people who care are a small fraction of iPhone users. If I was running AIB or BOI, you wouldn't be getting Apple Pay.

ukoda

cnocbui wrote: »

Why are you surprised? Apple Pay cost's the banks lost revenue. The only people who care are a small fraction of iPhone users. If I was running AIB or BOI, you wouldn't be getting Apple Pay.

Thankfuly you're not! With such a narrow view the bank would probably stagnate and become irrevelant in a modern society

shanec1928

ukoda wrote: »

I'm actually surprised Apple lancuhed without the 2 'big' banks in Ireland. I had assumed a prerequisite was AIB and BOI onboard, AIB at a minimum as it's fairly dominant. Apple tend to hold back on things until they are happy with them and can boast things like "Apple Pay is available to 90% of the population on day 1 of launch"

I guess they decided to run with KBC and Ulster Bank as they didn't want to be too far behind Android Pay.

It also gives them leverage with the remaining banks as they won't want to be left behind and I can see them getting hammered on social media with "when is Apple Pay coming"

Id say its more that they have an existing relationship from the uk market

Bob24

ukoda wrote: »

Thankfuly you're not! With such a narrow view the bank would probably stagnate and become irrevelant in a modern society

Also ApplePay is much better for banks than electronic/mobile payment companies which are completely putting them out of the picture (Revolut, Boon, etc). If Bank of Ireland decides not to participate in Apple Pay to save on fees to Apple, is it really better form them if instead customers just make one monthly payment to Boon from their BoI account and start making all their electronic payments through Boon?

ukoda

Bob24 wrote: »

Also ApplePay is much better for banks than electronic/mobile payment companies which are completely putting them out of the picture (Revolut, Boon, etc). If Bank of Ireland decides not to participate in Apple Pay to save on fees to Apple, is it really better form them if instead customers just make one monthly payment to Boon from their BoI account and start making all their electronic payments through Boon?

As soon as Revolut gives me SEPA bank account I'm gone from the Irish banks (they already give me a GBP bank account)

cnocbui

ukoda wrote: »

Thankfuly you're not! With such a narrow view the bank would probably stagnate and become irrevelant in a modern society

If the banks allowed apple pay and passed on the cost to you, would you use it?

ukoda

cnocbui wrote: »

If the banks allowed apple pay and passed on the cost to you, would you use it?

In theory there's no additional costs here as the transaction fees are the same (I'm talking on the merchant side) what they hammer out in talks is how much Apple gets for being the provider of that transaction, traditionally it was split between the bank and the card issuer, now there's 3 players involved.

The banks pass on many charges that consumers are willing to pay for convience, the most outrageous one I've heard from an Irish bank is 30c per contactless transaction.

Apple Pay is no different to any other contactless purchase, depending on your bank you are either already paying for contactless or you're smart enough to be with a bank that doesn't charge for them at all.

Pedro32561

I was asked twice today to physically sign for transactions using my watch. Was a bit taken aback as I've never had to sign for contactless payments before. It wasn't an error on the shops behalfs, the till spit out the slip to sign. Happening to anyone else?

ukoda

Pedro32561 wrote: »

I was asked twice today to physically sign for transactions using my watch. Was a bit taken aback as I've never had to sign for contactless payments before. It wasn't an error on the shops behalfs, the till spit out the slip to sign. Happening to anyone else?

Was it over the €30? It depends on how the terminal is configured by the merchant

Sad Professor

Pedro32561 wrote: »

I was asked twice today to physically sign for transactions using my watch. Was a bit taken aback as I've never had to sign for contactless payments before. It wasn't an error on the shops behalfs, the till spit out the slip to sign. Happening to anyone else?

In the same place?

Creamy Goodness

ahh ffs signing for things? I really thought we were behind all of that...

what's next going back to the old carbon copy machines?

jamesieliz

Pedro32561 wrote: »

I was asked twice today to physically sign for transactions using my watch. Was a bit taken aback as I've never had to sign for contactless payments before. It wasn't an error on the shops behalfs, the till spit out the slip to sign. Happening to anyone else?

I used it for first time today and till receipt came out as well as customer receipt, cashier was surprised that till receipt came out as well ,she said I didn't need to sign it so I said ok and left it at that....

Pedro32561

ukoda wrote: »

Was it over the €30? It depends on how the terminal is configured by the merchant

No. Both transactions less than 30.

Pedro32561

Sad Professor wrote: »

In the same place?

Two different shops. One I've used very regularly with my watch over the last while and it's never happened before.

Sad Professor

When I worked in retail even successful chip and pin transactions sometimes resulted in a sign-for receipt coming out. I think it happened when the till was offline. To do with how the terminal was set up.

OU812

Just had another failure on my phone. This time for €50. Got the same "no card present" message. beginning to think it's my iPhone 6 as it works on my watch.

cnocbui

ukoda wrote: »

In theory there's no additional costs here as the transaction fees are the same (I'm talking on the merchant side) what they hammer out in talks is how much Apple gets for being the provider of that transaction, traditionally it was split between the bank and the card issuer, now there's 3 players involved.

The banks pass on many charges that consumers are willing to pay for convience, the most outrageous one I've heard from an Irish bank is 30c per contactless transaction.

Apple Pay is no different to any other contactless purchase, depending on your bank you are either already paying for contactless or you're smart enough to be with a bank that doesn't charge for them at all.

Apple pay is different, from the bank's perspective, because they make less money per transaction and have to pay Apple a share of the fees they otherwise would collect. Given the banks have to make up that lost revenue somehow, it would be fare to assume they are passing on the cost to their customers in general, which means Apple Pay users are being subsidised by other bank customers.

ukoda

cnocbui wrote: »

Apple pay is different, from the bank's perspective, because they make less money per transaction and have to pay Apple a share of the fees they otherwise would collect. Given the banks have to make up that lost revenue somehow, it would be fare to assume they are passing on the cost to their customers in general, which means Apple Pay users are being subsidised by other bank customers.

Technically speaking that may not be true. It isn't published anywhere about apples revenue model for Apple Pay but it's widely accepted from reliable sources that they make their revenue on the card issuers cut and not necessarily the banks.

The general consensus is that out of the standard visa / MasterCard etc merchant fee (that retailers pay) Apple takes 0.15.% of that fee. That's the card issuers fee now not the banks cut of the transaction. Companies like visa and MasterCard are willing to give this fee to Apple as they really want to promote tokenisation of transactions, as they are far more secure. supporting Apple Pay reduces their fraud liability payments as tokenisation is far more secure and Apple add another level to that using biometric authentication.

So in theory, and I say in theory as it's not been made public, the banks shouldn't have any extra costs here, apart from the already existing fees between themselves and card issuers (which haven't changed), if they choose to charge extra fees for Apple Pay, either directly or socialised, I would think it's opportunistic money grabbing that has no basis or correlation to Apple Pay itself

Your statement of "the banks make less money on Apple Pay" is speculation as no bank / card issuer or Apple themselves have revealed the revenue model.

murpho999

Had a good one last night. Was out at Newbridge Greyhounds. Had food and drinks bill of €83.
I asked to pay by contactless. Girl said "You can't do that"

Me: I think you can, please try.
Girl: No, you cannot do that.
Me: I think it will work can we at least try?

By this stage the manager and my friends were gathered around with curiosity and she said she'd try.
Pressure was on me as I didn't want to be left with egg on my face.

She pressed the button., I opened the wallet app. Phone to terminal. Boon kicked in, fingerprint and approval in seconds.

Everyone was amazed and I felt like a technical super guru. :-)

GSPfan

@ murpho999

Very ballsy move. Delighted it worked. Gotta try it soon. Dying to spend money now I am!

cnocbui

ukoda wrote: »

Technically speaking that may not be true. It isn't published anywhere about apples revenue model for Apple Pay but it's widely accepted from reliable sources that they make their revenue on the card issuers cut and not necessarily the banks.

The general consensus is that out of the standard visa / MasterCard etc merchant fee (that retailers pay) Apple takes 0.15.% of that fee. That's the card issuers fee now not the banks cut of the transaction. Companies like visa and MasterCard are willing to give this fee to Apple as they really want to promote tokenisation of transactions, as they are far more secure. supporting Apple Pay reduces their fraud liability payments as tokenisation is far more secure and Apple add another level to that using biometric authentication.

So in theory, and I say in theory as it's not been made public, the banks shouldn't have any extra costs here, apart from the already existing fees between themselves and card issuers (which haven't changed), if they choose to charge extra fees for Apple Pay, either directly or socialised, I would think it's opportunistic money grabbing that has no basis or correlation to Apple Pay itself

Your statement of "the banks make less money on Apple Pay" is speculation as no bank / card issuer or Apple themselves have revealed the revenue model.

Would you like to try that again?

And that 'Apple adds tokenisation and added security' is just nonsense. All NFC card transactions in Europe and Australia are already tokenised. Apple only added security in the US vs mag stripe payments which were not tokenized or secure. It is a completely different situation in Europe and Australia where card payment systems have been far more advanced and secure than in the US, for years.

Why do you think banks everywhere are so reluctant to participate in Apple Pay? It's because THEY are the ones paying Apple. VISA and Mastercard will pay a portion of their fees for Credit Card transactions, but the majority of card transactions are debit transactions on a positive balance account, and VISA aren't making fees on those.

Apple are very keen to prevent the terms of their onerous 19 page contracts being made public, but it has already leaked, and it makes very clear the banks as card issuers are paying fees to Apple: http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/4914

Furthermore, there has been considerable resistance to Apple Pay in Australia and it is very clear that the banks are objecting to losing what amounts to about 33% of their interchange fees to Apple.

Fairfax Media understands fees are a big sticking point in the negotiations, with big banks not willing to give Apple a slice of the $2 billion a year they earn in interchange fees, which are paid by merchants for use of payments infrastructure.

In the United States, Apple is believed to earn about 15¢ on every $100 of transactions. It is understood Apple has been asking for the same amount of interchange fee in Australia.

But Australia's big banks will not agree to this level given that interchange fees in Australia are about half the US level – equivalent to an average of 50¢ $100 of transaction compared with about $1 for $100 of transaction fees in the US.

The Reserve Bank of Australia is trying to push interchange fees down even further, to an average of 30¢ per $100 of transactions. This increases the stakes in the negotiations between the banks and Apple in how to share the interchange-fee pie.

The big banks are also reluctant to open their payments infrastructure to Apple for two other reasons. First, because they are being forced by the RBA to tip hundreds of millions of dollars into building the New Payments Platform, new infrastructure that will have real-time capability, there are concerns about Apple seeking to free ride on this investment.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/banking-and-finance/apple-pay-being-repelled-by-big-banks-20150815-gizz6y.html

It is abundantly clear that Banks lose revenue to Apple. Just as Irish taxpayers are making up the deficit caused by free-loading mutinationals not paying their taxes in this country, it is probably inevitable that the banks would make up any lost revenue from their general customer base.

ukoda

cnocbui wrote: »

Would you like to try that again?

And that 'Apple adds tokenisation and added security' is just nonsense. All NFC card transactions in Europe and Australia are already tokenised. Apple only added security in the US vs mag stripe payments which were not tokenized or secure. It is a completely different situation in Europe and Australia where card payment systems have been far more advanced and secure than in the US, for years.

Why do you think banks everywhere are so reluctant to participate in Apple Pay? It's because THEY are the ones paying Apple. VISA and Mastercard will pay a portion of their fees for Credit Card transactions, but the majority of card transactions are debit transactions on a positive balance account, and VISA aren't making fees on those.

Apple are very keen to prevent the terms of their onerous 19 page contracts being made public, but it has already leaked, and it makes very clear the banks as card issuers are paying fees to Apple: http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/4914

Furthermore, there has been considerable resistance to Apple Pay in Australia and it is very clear that the banks are objecting to losing what amounts to about 33% of their interchange fees to Apple.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/banking-and-finance/apple-pay-being-repelled-by-big-banks-20150815-gizz6y.html

It is abundantly clear that Banks lose revenue to Apple. Just as Irish taxpayers are making up the deficit caused by free-loading mutinationals not paying their taxes in this country, it is probably inevitable that the banks would make up any lost revenue from their general customer base.

You've posted quite a lot there, mostly about tokenisation already being use...which I never denied.... I simply said Apple uses it and adds to it.

I don't see anything there that confirms the revenue model from an actual party involved: i.e. Apple / Bank / card issuer. An article written by a journalist citing "leaks" isn't the same thing

So I'll reiterate my point, it's all speculation and theory. You could be 100% right, but there's no official records and I suspect it varies between countries and maybe even between banks

Bob24

cnocbui wrote: »

And that 'Apple adds tokenisation and added security' is just nonsense. All NFC card transactions in Europe and Australia are already tokenised.

I am not super knowledgable about tokenisation but are you sure of this> I thought tokens where only used on mobile devices and visa Europe doesn't seem to mention using them on physical contactless cards here.

Also, even if it is the case Apple is also improving security because the phone/watch provides a quick and trusted user authentication service, which is why banks are lifting the 30 euros contactless limit for Apple Pay whereas they can't do that for physical payment cards.

Doodah7

Just used Apple Pay using my watch in Aldi for €45. So contactless limit is disabled in Aldi for Apple Pay.

TheChizler

tallpaul wrote: »

Just used Apple Pay using my watch in Aldi for €45. So contactless limit is disabled in Aldi for Apple Pay.

I don't think merchants can distinguish between different tokenisation providers.

Fleawuss

Pedro32561 wrote: »

I was asked twice today to physically sign for transactions using my watch. Was a bit taken aback as I've never had to sign for contactless payments before. It wasn't an error on the shops behalfs, the till spit out the slip to sign. Happening to anyone else?

No. Watch works like a dream. Just told cashier I was using contactless, quick double click, turn the face toward reader, split second and the till was printing receipt. No fishing for phone or cash or card. This is so good it's dangerous!

knucklehead6

OU812 wrote: »

Woodies don't take it

Woodies DO take it. Only up to the contactless limit though

GSPfan

My sister went to Lidl today and picked up €60 worth of stuff, but only realised at the till she forgot her card and only had €58 in cash. So out came the phone. Its a great option to have.

cnocbui

That story doesn't sound in the least bit contrived.

OU812

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Woodies DO take it. Only up to the contactless limit though

Must be my phone so. Works grand on my watch (but I wasn't wearing it at woodies)