Apple Pay now available in Ireland

Creamy Goodness

Cloudio9 wrote: »

I can understand bars doing it. Cards slow a busy bar down but him being able to tap the card beside the till is fast.

You can't hand over your iPhone as the staff wont be apple to use Touch ID

With old terminal hardware I can understand but many contactless terminals are wireless in terms of being thethered to the point of sale. No excuse really in that case.

Bob24

Mr.S wrote: »

Cheap or old terminals / slow connection and crap setup slow a busy bar down when paying by card.

Contactless / ApplePay is quicker then cash if done right.

Exactly. It also makes it safer for the business as no cash is being handled (and I don't do if it is a good thing, but it also probably makes drunk people buy more drinks as they won't realise as much than with cash how much they are spending, and as opposed to cash the card/phone/watch will never run out as long as there is money on the account).

Well worth the small expense of getting recent terminals and optimising their physical setup for this type of transaction.

Cloudio9

Bob24 wrote: »

Exactly. It also makes it safer for the business as no cash is being handled .

Actually, pubs like cash. It's a lot more ehhh tax efficient

BoatMad

Patww79 wrote: »

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I completely refuse to hand the card over , They usually get embarrassed and offer the terminal

if not I walk out

OldMrBrennan83

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BoatMad

Patww79 wrote: »

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oh Ive had flaming arguments over it. even for chip and pin , I will not hand it to them to place it in the reader. I just say "the card does not leave my possession , thank you "

however , I cant see the point off Apple pay , given I have to carry any wallet anyway

Cloudio9

BoatMad wrote: »

oh Ive had flaming arguments over it. even for chip and pin , I will not hand it to them to place it in the reader. I just say "the card does not leave my possession , thank you "

however , I cant see the point off Apple pay , given I have to carry any wallet anyway

The point of Apple Pay is you're not limited to €30 and it's more secure.

BoatMad

Cloudio9 wrote: »

The point of Apple Pay is you're not limited to €30 and it's more secure.

how is it more secure, the terminal interaction is the same as contactless

Cloudio9

BoatMad wrote: »

how is it more secure, the terminal interaction is the same as contactless

Apple pay requires finger print authorisation. Contactless only requires tap. In the event of theft, the thief can use the card.

Apple Pay uses encryption meaning your card details are not exposed

BoatMad

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Apple pay requires finger print authorisation. Contactless only requires tap. In the event of theft, the thief can use the card.

Apple Pay uses encryption meaning your card details are not exposed

I write for iOS, and I see the only advantage is that the user authorisation before acceptance as a valuable addition, in that it prevent this party usage

However my banks protects me from third party illegal usage, so in reality my exposure is very limited

The NFC data transfer is identical to contactless (because Apple emulates the chip data transfer ) and hence is as safe or unsafe as any NFC transaction , and their is no data on the contactless card that can actually be used to carry out a successful payment request elsewhere

today, I always bring my wallet with me ( drivers license, multipole payment cards , loyalty cards ) , I am not enamoured by having to bring my phone as well, merely to do a transaction that I can already do today anyway

again this is a US centric idea, where contactless cards and chip and pin have been very slow to catch on . But in Europe , not so great an idea

OldMrBrennan83

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BoatMad

Patww79 wrote: »

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I tried sticking the euro notes to the face of my iPhone 6, it didnt seem entirely successful :rolleyes:

and the two access cards I need .........


When I can replace it all with my iPhone, Im the first in line ....

Cloudio9

BoatMad wrote: »

I write for iOS

Irrelevant in the context of security.

BoatMad wrote: »

The NFC data transfer is identical to contactless (because Apple emulates the chip data transfer ) and hence is as safe or unsafe as any NFC transaction , and their is no data on the contactless card that can actually be used to carry out a successful payment request elsewhere

Presenting a card with number, name, expiry, ccv displayed is inherently more exposed to fraud than presenting an iPhone.

BoatMad

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Irrelevant in the context of security.

true but not irrelevant in the knowledge of the device

Presenting a card with number, name, expiry, ccv displayed is inherently more exposed to fraud than presenting an iPhone.

Marginally, but the security of any computing device is largely illusory
the main protection is two fold

The banks indemnify you for illegal use
The information that " theoretically " can be garnered from a contactless card, cannot be actually used to generate a legal transaction that bypasses your indemnity

Hence Apple Pay security is largely illusory

PS, of course the merchant rapper eceipt that in some instances will contain a complete record of your transaction from your iPhone will have on it ( in some implementations , your " number, name, expiry") is not compromising Apple Pay ???

Bob24

Also I don't think it is correct to say "The NFC data transfer is identical to contactless (because Apple emulates the chip data transfer )".

ApplePay uses a token based payment protocol which is not the same (and safer) than what contactless cards are doing. I think technically cards could do the same but in practices it is not the case as of today.

And it is obvious from the fact that there is no payment limit that banks don't agree with the statement saying ApplePay "is as safe or unsafe as any NFC". If they didn't think it was safer than contactless cards, they would apply the same restrictions.

BoatMad

Bob24 wrote: »

Also I don't think it is correct to say "The NFC data transfer is identical to contactless (because Apple emulates the chip data transfer )".

ApplePay uses a token based payment protocol which is not the same (and safer) than what contactless cards are doing. I think technically cards could do the same but in practices it is not the case as of today.

And it is obvious from the fact that there is no payment limit that banks don't agree with the statement saying ApplePay "is as safe or unsafe as any NFC". If they didn't think it was safer than contactless cards, they would apply the same restrictions.

hmmm

Is there a limit to the transaction amount that customers can use Apple Pay for in my store?

Apple Pay allows your customers to make easy and secure contactless payments of any amount. Your customers might need to insert their card if either of these apply:
Your payment terminal or payment provider doesn’t support the latest network specifications, as with contactless debit and credit cards
The transaction amount is over 100 CAD in Canada, 20 EUR in France, 500 HKD in Hong Kong, 100 SGD in Singapore, or 30 GBP in the UK

The french seem a little suspicious

Creamy Goodness

We're not France. We're Ireland. I've used Apple Pay to pay for €80 physio sessions and filling up a car full to the brim of petrol.

I feel like you're fighting a losing battle here. Sure you never leave home without your wallet but you're in the minority even if your social circles suggest otherwise.

Apple Pay is infinitely more secure than contactless, chip and pin, and swipe and sign just vecause other countries are slow to adopt (the US) or impose limits (France etc) doesn't mean it's not more secure they're just slower to move to the future of payments. Tokenised payments (Apple/android/Samsung Pay) only issue is with education of people and cashiers.

Apple Pay on the web is another method which isn't really celebrated enough. I've paid for three separate things using it. It's as simple as: hit Apple Pay button, select payment card, auth with phone (as I don't have Touch ID on the mac) and it's done. Much simpler than inputting card details from your wallet or even unlocking a password safe and prefilling the card details.

BoatMad

ApplePay uses a token based payment protocol which is not the same (and safer) than what contactless cards are doing. I think technically cards could do the same but in practices it is not the case as of today

The system of dynamic tokens is also used ( in a slightly different way ) in contactless cards, in essence just like Apple pay a purchase specific token is exchanged

Its with noting that while contactless is huge in UK, Ireland , Australia, its only enabled for about 50% of users in the US ( including phone based systems)

Have a look here

http://www.pymnts.com/news/payment-methods/2017/apple-pay-adoption-down-and-so-is-the-hype-mobile-pay-usage/

we shall see, today in Europe I need a wallet , and with it the convince of contactless , when that changes , I,m the first in line to dump the thing ( the wallet )

BoatMad

I feel like you're fighting a losing battle here. Sure you never leave home without your wallet but you're in the minority even if your social circles suggest otherwise.

I guarantee you any person of moderate means and at the age of consistent income, is carrying some form of wallet

Apple Pay is infinitely more secure than contactless, chip and pin,

This is simply a false statement , there are circumstances where it is slightly better , but not " infinite "

see https://www.rsaconference.com/writable/presentations/file_upload/ht-w01-how-secure-are-contact-less-payment-systems_final.pdf

Tokenised payments (Apple/android/Samsung Pay) only issue is with education of people and cashiers

ALL EMV systems use a form of tokenisation , read up on the process , The card one isnt identical , but the advantages are relatively minor not " infinite "

( and personally Id prefer to loose/have stolen my contactless card , then my iPhone )

We're not France. We're Ireland. I've used Apple Pay to pay for €80 physio sessions and filling up a car full to the brim of petrol.

I drive an electric car, hence I dont have to buy dino juice at all

the point is that the idea that the limit is universally non existent simply isn't true

Creamy Goodness

BoatMad wrote: »

I guarantee you any person of moderate means and at the age of consistent income, is carrying some form of wallet

I didn't say people don't leave without a wallet. But I'd easily leave my wallet at home more than I'd leave my phone at home. I bet the 18-34 age range would lean this way too.

BoatMad wrote: »

This is simply a false statement , there are circumstances where it is slightly better , but not " infinite "

see https://www.rsaconference.com/writable/presentations/file_upload/ht-w01-how-secure-are-contact-less-payment-systems_final.pdf

Ah yes a slideshow of a talk I was not at where a lot of context is lost from not hearing the speaker. Some mistakes in that slide deck also. Also mentioning android kit Kat, what year is this?

BoatMad wrote: »

ALL EMV systems use a form of tokenisation , read up on the process , The card one isnt identical , but the advantages are relatively minor not " infinite "

( and personally Id prefer to loose/have stolen my contactless card , then my iPhone )

I'm well aware of the process, if I wasn't I'd be fired in the morning.

I'd rather lose my phone, yes the initial lost is bigger (€1000 phone) but having to cancel all my debit and credit cards along with applying for a new passport card, drivers license etc etc seem more work to me, than claiming on insurance for losing my phone.

BoatMad wrote: »

I drive an electric car, hence I dont have to buy dino juice at all

the point is that the idea that the limit is universally non existent simply isn't true

Not everyone can afford an electric car at this point, as much as I want one but it was an example of a weekly purchase that's over the contactless limit that is ripe for Apple Pay.

I never said the limit was non existent, I just specified in Ireland it is (it's in the thread title after all) but however you still seem insistent to reference countries like France and the States.

BoatMad

Not everyone can afford an electric car at this point, as much as I want one but it was an example of a weekly purchase that's over the contactless limit that is ripe for Apple Pay.

relax, it was just a jibe at the dino juice and you can get a nice Nissan leaf EV for 10K

I never said the limit was non existent, I just specified in Ireland it is (it's in the thread title after all) but however you still seem insistent to reference countries like France and the States.

I referenced this statement

And it is obvious from the fact that there is no payment limit that banks don't agree with the statement saying ApplePay "is as safe or unsafe as any NFC". If they didn't think it was safer than contactless cards, they would apply the same restrictions.

which was made in a general way

As for Banks , when the big boys , adopt it here , we'll see

BoatMad

Plus, I leave home without my wallet quite regularly, because of ApplePay I don't need it a lot of the time.

how do you carry cash , loyalty cards, RFID access cards.

Im not arguing against Apple Pay. IN countries with low takeup of contactless cards, it will be a boon

but right now it brings very little extra to the party thats all

Mind you , if BoI adopt , it might make me wear my Apple Watch again !

BoatMad

Mr.S wrote: »

Cash? I very very very rarely need cash. Can't even remember the last time I went to an ATM. Contactless all the way. Don't bother with loyalty cards and access to work is via a pin code

unfortunately down the bog, life not that simple in that regard, when we get NFC parking meters - whoo whoooo

Bob24

BoatMad wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

Also I don't think it is correct to say "The NFC data transfer is identical to contactless (because Apple emulates the chip data transfer )".

ApplePay uses a token based payment protocol which is not the same (and safer) than what contactless cards are doing. I think technically cards could do the same but in practices it is not the case as of today.

And it is obvious from the fact that there is no payment limit that banks don't agree with the statement saying ApplePay "is as safe or unsafe as any NFC". If they didn't think it was safer than contactless cards, they would apply the same restrictions.

hmmm

Is there a limit to the transaction amount that customers can use Apple Pay for in my store?

Apple Pay allows your customers to make easy and secure contactless payments of any amount. Your customers might need to insert their card if either of these apply:
Your payment terminal or payment provider doesn’t support the latest network specifications, as with contactless debit and credit cards
The transaction amount is over 100 CAD in Canada, 20 EUR in France, 500 HKD in Hong Kong, 100 SGD in Singapore, or 30 GBP in the UK

The french seem a little suspicious

It doesn't say there is a systematic hard limit as with contactless card payments. It says customers *may* need to insert their cards in some countries. And mind you, I have Apple Pay with a debit card issued by a French bank (country listed here) and it never happened to me regardless of using ApplePay with that card in France or in Ireland, so it is definitely not a systematic requirement and I don't think it is common practice.

This French bank's Apple Pay webpage will explain what is happening:

They say very clearly that their transaction limit for Apple Pay payments is 300 euros (as opposed to a much lower 20 euros for their contactless cards). However they mention that depending on how the payment terminal is configured it might apply a 20 euros limit for Apple Pay, but clearly explain that it is due to a lack of software update on the terminal and will disappear overtime as merchants update the software of their terminals (footnote number 2).

So in short, that Apple support page you quoted is saying that some terminals which are not up to date with the latest software might apply a 20 euros limit. Nothing like banks restricting payments to 20 euros.

So no the French aren't suspicious of Apple Pay ;-) A small number of them are just lazy with updating their payment terminals.

Bob24

BoatMad wrote: »

ApplePay uses a token based payment protocol which is not the same (and safer) than what contactless cards are doing. I think technically cards could do the same but in practices it is not the case as of today

The system of dynamic tokens is also used ( in a slightly different way ) in contactless cards, in essence just like Apple pay a purchase specific token is exchanged

As I say, ApplePay is different (and safer).

A critical aspect is that it never requires the card's unique and unmodifible PAN (primary account number) to process a transaction, ans that PAN is not stored on the phone or by Apple (as opposed to a contactless card which needs the PAN to make payments). ApplePay only requires a token which can easily be revoked and is validated every time. See short comparison of contactless payment methods here.

murpho999

BoatMad wrote: »

how do you carry cash , loyalty cards, RFID access cards.

Im not arguing against Apple Pay. IN countries with low takeup of contactless cards, it will be a boon

but right now it brings very little extra to the party thats all

Mind you , if BoI adopt , it might make me wear my Apple Watch again !

For Loyalty cards, I use Stocard app which can scan your card and put in your Apple Wallet.

The sooner shops move away from physical cards to phone versions the better.

Creamy Goodness

murpho999 wrote: »

For Loyalty cards, I use Stocard app which can scan your card and put in your Apple Wallet.

The sooner shops move away from physical cards to phone versions the better.

looks like a great app for loyalty cards. You've probably not run into this but Supervalu scanners have a terrible time scanning the barcode off a screen which is basically the only real world loyalty card I use :pac:

Sad Professor

I've always hated wallets. I have an ultra thin nylon wallet I ordered from a US company years ago that's a fraction of the size of those leather man bricks people carry around but even that seems bulky to me, so most of the time I just carry cash or cards loose in my pocket as I need them. Apple Pay isn't at the point that I'd leave my card at home but I look forward to day when it is.

murpho999

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

looks like a great app for loyalty cards. You've probably not run into this but Supervalu scanners have a terrible time scanning the barcode off a screen which is basically the only real world loyalty card I use :pac:

No, Supervalu scanners are awful. None of them can scan phones.

I have been in many Supervalus that still don't do contactless payments so no Apple Pay there either.

murpho999

Sad Professor wrote: »

I've always hated wallets. I have an ultra thin nylon wallet I ordered from a US company years ago that's a fraction of the size of those leather man bricks people carry around but even that seems bulky to me, so most of the time I just carry cash or cards loose in my pocket as I need them. Apple Pay isn't at the point that I'd leave my card at home but I look forward to day when it is.

I hate bulky wallets too.

Perhaps The Ridge Wallet is an idea for you.

I got one last Christmas and find it great.