Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

FrancieBrady

bubblypop wrote: »

The provisional IRA was set up in December 1969.

Yes, after a split.
A split that should and did actually signal the imminent dangers. The IRA split because factions of it were angry that the IRA had failed to protect nationalists in the north.

It was plainly evident to anyone with an ounce of sense what was going to happen.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I did mention what actually happened in all my posts on this.

*'I favour the arguments I support'? Is that not how it should be?

No , one should always try to be objective .

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

No , one should always try to be objective .

Funny how, the people who claim to be 'objective' in this debate, only favour one side. Only one side is entirely wrong in everything they did and do.

Garymat67

billy few mates wrote: »

Glad to see admin move swiftly on the troll, I had him identified in his first five or six posts, the next twenty odd merely confirmed it. It was like a flashback to an earlier time on here when another (since departed) troll went as far as creating an imaginary friend whose sole purpose was to agree with him on a thread he'd started but was rapidly losing control of direction on. Thankfully in that episode the imaginary friend (BonesDeeny) was also identified and banned.
Good to see this one was nailed quickly, sad to see the person behind it is still amongst us.

Glad to see him gone, hopefully he's gone for good now.

Garymat67

Ok lets use some logic here if Gerry Adams does give the name of who the Stacks met then Adams will never get information for any victims again, he gets the information because he's trusted.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Funny how, the people who claim to be 'objective' in this debate, only favour one side. Only one side is entirely wrong in everything they did and do.

Yeah , you do seem to only always speak up for one side Francie , it is progress that you are aware of it though :)

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

Yeah , you do seem to only always speak up for one side Francie , it is progress that you are aware of it though :)

Which bit of 'I am not neutral on republican issues' did you not get away back early in the thread?

Garymat67

marienbad wrote: »

Yeah , you do seem to only always speak up for one side Francie , it is progress that you are aware of it though :)

Why would anyone stick up for the side who caused these problems on our island in the first place?

They partitioned our island against our will because they are bigger than us they can do whatever they want, they're no better than a bully

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which bit of 'I am not neutral on republican issues' did you not get away back early in the thread?

Oh I got that ok , but even when you support one particular viewpoint you should still try to be objective as best you can . Of course it is impossible to be completely so ,human nature being what it is , but we should still try .

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

Oh I got that ok , but even when you support one particular viewpoint you should still try to be objective as best you can . Of course it is impossible to be completely so ,human nature being what it is , but we should still try .

Indeed, and OBJECTIVELY speaking, if the world media spotlight was going to fall on NI for one set of circumstances where people were dying/suffering, it is perfectly reasonable to suggest they will fall on it when people were dying for a different set of reasons and cause the same pressure.

Objectively, neither of us know what would have happened, so within the bounds of credibility we can both speculate.

I have linked to further info/primary sources to support my speculation as well and that is just the tip of the iceberg on missed opportunities, by those who had the ultimate responsibility.

Exactly what they are doing over the issues today, avoiding them.

Garymat67

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Indeed, and OBJECTIVELY speaking, if the world media spotlight was going to fall on NI for one set of circumstances where people were dying/suffering, it is perfectly reasonable to suggest they will fall on it when people were dying for a different set of reasons and cause the same pressure.

Objectively, neither of us know what would have happened, so within the bounds of credibility we can both speculate.

I have linked to further info/primary sources to support my speculation as well and that is just the tip of the iceberg on missed opportunities, by those who had the ultimate responsibility.

Exactly what they are doing over the issues today, avoiding them.

Yes to be honest I think the only countries which would be fully supporting Britain would have been western europe.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Indeed, and OBJECTIVELY speaking, if the world media spotlight was going to fall on NI for one set of circumstances where people were dying/suffering, it is perfectly reasonable to suggest they will fall on it when people were dying for a different set of reasons and cause the same pressure.

Objectively, neither of us know what would have happened, so within the bounds of credibility we can both speculate.

I have linked to further info/primary sources to support my speculation as well and that is just the tip of the iceberg on missed opportunities, by those who had the ultimate responsibility.

Exactly what they are doing over the issues today, avoiding them.

With the greatest respect Francie this is just rubbish , you can speculate all you want , you can 'what if' all you want , but according to the old cliché 'if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle ' but she doesn't , so can we stick to what actually happened instead of what you think should have/might have/, could have happened

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

With the greatest respect Francie this is just rubbish , you can speculate all you want , you can 'what if' all you want , but according to the old cliché 'if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle ' but she doesn't , so can we stick to what actually happened instead of what you think should have/might have/, could have happened

Would that be because you don't want to have to apportion responsibility to certain players in the conflict maybe?
But yet wouldn't you be one of the first to make republicans responsible for what happened.

Sure let's all just wash our hands of it and forget it? Just like FG and FF did about the conflicts that founded the state?

If you don't speculate about what might have happened or could have happened then you don't learn from history.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Would that be because you don't want to have to apportion responsibility to certain players in the conflict maybe?
But yet wouldn't you be one of the first to make republicans responsible for what happened.

Sure let's all just wash our hands of it and forget it? Just like FG and FF did about the conflicts that founded the state?

If you don't speculate about what might have happened or could have happened then you don't learn from history.

No it wouldn't Francie .

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

No it wouldn't Francie .

Do you think Lynch had options to apply more pressure on the British as Sean McBride and others outlined?

It's an important point as their is a point of view (mine included) that there is more the Irish government could be doing to make progress on the current issue. As per the quote from Adams in the OP.

G Adams wrote:

If the Taoiseach and Micheál Martin are interested in healing the legacy of the past for all families, including the Stacks, the Finucane’s, the families of the Dublin Monaghan bombs and hundreds more, then they could begin by putting in place an International based independent truth recovery process,”

Garymat67

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do you think Lynch had options to apply more pressure on the British as Sean McBride and others outlined?

It's an important point as their is a point of view (mine included) that there is more the Irish government could be doing to make progress on the current issue. As per the quote from Adams in the OP.

I think Haughey was the only one to actually put pressure on, every time the IRA blew up or shot a few British soldiers Haughey would come on TV shouting partition has failed

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do you think Lynch had options to apply more pressure on the British as Sean McBride and others outlined?

It's an important point as their is a point of view (mine included) that there is more the Irish government could be doing to make progress on the current issue. As per the quote from Adams in the OP.

Doesn't matter what I think . Do you think if Mcconville McCabe Stack had not been killed the situation now would be less toxic . Do you think if GA had done more about his brother in 2000 he would have more credibility now ?

It is just 'what if' speculation , usually partisan and adds little or nothing to the debate .

K-9

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do you think Lynch had options to apply more pressure on the British as Sean McBride and others outlined?

It's an important point as their is a point of view (mine included) that there is more the Irish government could be doing to make progress on the current issue. As per the quote from Adams in the OP.

Mod:
In fairness you are going pretty off topic in your own thread! The Arms Crisis doesn't have much relevance to your OP.

billy few mates

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Or maybe it is because it wasn't true and Gerry knows how some like to use language to create sinister imagery around things like 'blacked' out vans and 'shadowy' IRA men (who neglect to hide their identities after going to the effort of using 'blacked' out vans.) :rolleyes:

Yes that'll be it because everybody knows there's nothing remotely sinister or 'shadowy' about travelling around the border area in a 'blacked out' van unless you're actually driving it....:rolleyes:
I'm glad that Gerry was able to clear that one up for us....

Johndoe86

billy few mates wrote: »

Yes that'll be it because everybody knows there's nothing remotely sinister or 'shadowy' about travelling around the border area in a 'blacked out' van unless you're actually driving it....:rolleyes:
I'm glad that Gerry was able to clear that one up for us....

Would you rather the Stack family got no information? Would you rather Gerry didn't help any families?

billy few mates

Johndoe86 wrote: »

Would you rather the Stack family got no information? Would you rather Gerry didn't help any families?

No, I'd rather the families weren't beholden to a man like Gerry Adams or his gang in order to see justice for the loss of their loved ones....

Johndoe86

billy few mates wrote: »

No, I'd rather the families weren't beholden to a man like Gerry Adams or his gang in order to see justice for the loss of their loved ones....

And I'd rather I was a millionaire but that's not reality

billy few mates

Johndoe86 wrote: »

And I'd rather I was a millionaire but that's not reality

Only because 'golf club' rules trump the laws of our land in the minds of the old SF/IRA die hards...

Johndoe86

billy few mates wrote: »

Only because 'golf club' rules trump the laws of our land in the minds of the old SF/IRA die hards...

If Gerry started singing like a bird you can be certain he won't be able to get any information again so we won't have to worry about it, people are pretending like they care about victims families but if they really did they wouldn't be asking Gerry to sing as he would never be able to help another victim again.

He's able to get this information because he is trusted

Dyr

Actually one of the more interesting things baout all this is that most political parties would not have allowed their leader within an asses roar of all this. A mid level party official would have dealt directly with Stack.

Now Adams is'nt stupid, and I doubt he's just a guy with a heart of gold so I imagine Adams direct involvement has more to do with whatever dynamic exists between SF and Former Senior Republicans or whatever you call the Army Council retirees

FrancieBrady

billy few mates wrote: »

No, I'd rather the families weren't beholden to a man like Gerry Adams or his gang in order to see justice for the loss of their loved ones....

That's not what you were asked of course.

What is your solution to all this Billy. From satisfying the wishes of the victims point of view?
Suppress all the info like FG and FF conspired to do or arrange an all parties to the conflict truth recovery process and any justice issues arising from that that the Irish and British government committed to?

Itssoeasy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That's not what you were asked of course.

What is your solution to all this Billy. From satisfying the wishes of the victims point of view?
Suppress all the info like FG and FF conspired to do or arrange an all parties to the conflict truth recovery process and any justice issues arising from that that the Irish and British government committed to?

Which info did FF and FG conspire to suppress in this case ? A truth recovery process doesn't apply to the Republic Francie. Gerry Adams knows a person who knows who was responsible for killing Brian stack. I think it's only right that that persons name is passed on to the gardai so they can try and bring an end to the open investigation in the mans murder ?

Johndoe86

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Which info did FF and FG conspire to suppress in this case ? A truth recovery process doesn't apply to the Republic Francie. Gerry Adams knows a person who knows who was responsible for killing Brian stack. I think it's only right that that persons name is passed on to the gardai so they can try and bring an end to the open investigation in the mans murder ?

And then? And then Gerry won't be able to get information for any other victims ever again

Itssoeasy

Johndoe86 wrote: »

If Gerry started singing like a bird you can be certain he won't be able to get any information again so we won't have to worry about it, people are pretending like they care about victims families but if they really did they wouldn't be asking Gerry to sing as he would never be able to help another victim again.

He's able to get this information because he is trusted

No one is asking him to walk into the middle of O' Connell street and shout the guys name so let's not make out that's the reason he won't speak.

Itssoeasy

Johndoe86 wrote: »

And then? And then Gerry won't be able to get information for any other victims ever again

Brian stacks murder isn't anything to do with the truth recovery process ye seem to go on and on about though. My understanding is it's just the north. Brian stack(which is the original point of this thread) wasn't murdered in the north he was murdered in Dublin.

Johndoe86

Itssoeasy wrote: »

No one is asking him to walk into the middle of O' Connell street and shout the guys name so let's not make out that's the reason he won't speak.

His word is his word if he breaks his word then you have as good a chance of getting info for families as him.

Itssoeasy

Johndoe86 wrote: »

His word is his word if he breaks his word then you have as good a chance of getting info for families as him.

Gerry Adams word ? The man who the IRA requested be left out of prison to attend a meeting in London along with the top brass in the IRA ? The man who has been identified as a very high ranking member of the IRA by people who were actually in the IRA ? The guy who is in photos shoulder the coffin of prominent republicans ? Was he just passing and they were a man short and Gerry just did them a favour ? The man who unlike Martin mcguiness has point blank refused to admit what everyone knows.

Yeah Gerry Adams word means a lot alright.

Johndoe86

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Gerry Adams word ? The man who the IRA requested be left out of prison to attend a meeting in London along with the top brass in the IRA ? The man who has been identified as a very high ranking member of the IRA by people who were actually in the IRA ? The guy who is in photos shoulder the coffin of prominent republicans ? Was he just passing and they were a man short and Gerry just did them a favour ? The man who unlike Martin mcguiness has point blank refused to admit what everyone knows.

Yeah Gerry Adams word means a lot alright.

What? He was trusted in the IRA that's exactly what I was saying.

He stood up to the British when the rest cowered in the Dail, when John Hume was begging Gerry was doing

FrancieBrady

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Which info did FF and FG conspire to suppress in this case ? A truth recovery process doesn't apply to the Republic Francie. Gerry Adams knows a person who knows who was responsible for killing Brian stack. I think it's only right that that persons name is passed on to the gardai so they can try and bring an end to the open investigation in the mans murder ?

I'm afraid it does. It was even discussed on the radio today.
The case I am aware of, the files are all sitting with a solicitor waiting to go since the Stormont House Agreement.
You are in for a bit of a shock.

The gardai know who the man knows and we all know, as Adams knew and Austin Stack knew, The chain stops there.
We know this as well because it was well known that the IRA and others would not reveal these secrets, before the GFA. The governments knew it too.
Just like it was hypocritical to start complaining when certain prisoners started to get released for certain crimes after the entire island voted for the GFA (the agreement we were involved in because we were not 'involved' allegedly ) it is hypocritical to start whinging now.
We have commitments under the GFA, the all involved parties to conflict Stormont House Agreement stems directly from those commitments.
Start lobbying to repeal the GFA or rescind it maybe?

Wheeliebin30

Johndoe86 wrote: »

What? He was trusted in the IRA that's exactly what I was saying.

He stood up to the British when the rest cowered in the Dail, when John Hume was begging Gerry was doing

Kneecapping, fuel laundering, kidnapping horses and Irish citizens, shooting gardai dead, raping kids and hiding their attackers, to name a few.

Can you please tell how this was "standing up to the British"?

Johndoe86

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Kneecapping, fuel laundering, kidnapping horses and Irish citizens, shooting gardai dead, raping kids and hiding their attackers, to name a few.

Can you please tell how this was "standing up to the British"?

Would you grab certain incidents out of every conflict and say the same thing?

Because if you wanted to you could

Wheeliebin30

Johndoe86 wrote: »

Would you grab certain incidents out of every conflict and say the same thing?

Because if you wanted to you could

Nice deflection.

So care to answer the question?

Johndoe86

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Kneecapping, fuel laundering, kidnapping horses and Irish citizens, shooting gardai dead, raping kids and hiding their attackers, to name a few.

Can you please tell how this was "standing up to the British"?

Next time you see someone supporting the British, US or French army you should ask them how killing children is standing up to Isis, or how killing children is standing up to the Taliban or how about you ask the British how dragging Catholics from their cars and kicking their heads in is standing up to the IRA.

Itssoeasy

Johndoe86 wrote: »

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Gerry Adams word ? The man who the IRA requested be left out of prison to attend a meeting in London along with the top brass in the IRA ? The man who has been identified as a very high ranking member of the IRA by people who were actually in the IRA ? The guy who is in photos shoulder the coffin of prominent republicans ? Was he just passing and they were a man short and Gerry just did them a favour ? The man who unlike Martin mcguiness has point blank refused to admit what everyone knows.

Yeah Gerry Adams word means a lot alright.

What? He was trusted in the IRA that's exactly what I was saying.

He stood up to the British when the rest cowered in the Dail, when John Hume was begging Gerry was doing

A organisation that relied on secrecy and silence let an alledged non member into high ranking meetings in the 1970s ?

Jesus your last paragraph you'd swear he was the second coming. Gerry Adams isn't half the man John Hume is. I actually respect John Hume.

Johndoe86

Itssoeasy wrote: »

A organisation that relied on secrecy and silence let an alledged non member into high ranking meetings in the 1970s ?

Jesus your last paragraph you'd swear he was the second coming. Gerry Adams isn't half the man John Hume is. I actually respect John Hume.

John bank balance Hume, a man of leisure

FrancieBrady

He

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Kneecapping, fuel laundering, kidnapping horses and Irish citizens, shooting gardai dead, raping kids and hiding their attackers, to name a few.

Can you please tell how this was "standing up to the British"?

It is equally possible to write a list of the stuff the British and Unionists were up at the same time and pretend what the conflict was really about and the huge changes brought about.
Shame Paisley is dead because you could have asked who his sectarian state let had to 'allow about the place' by the time the conflict ended.

Wheeliebin30

Johndoe86 wrote: »

Next time you see someone supporting the British, US or French army you should ask them how killing children is standing up to Isis, or how killing children is standing up to the Taliban or how about you ask the British how dragging Catholics from their cars and kicking their heads in is standing up to the IRA.

Is this thread about the French army?

Can you answer the question?

You see there is an argument for standing up to the British alright but the things I listed has nothing to do with that.

Thankfully the majority see what the hero provos really were underneath it all.

Itssoeasy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Which info did FF and FG conspire to suppress in this case ? A truth recovery process doesn't apply to the Republic Francie. Gerry Adams knows a person who knows who was responsible for killing Brian stack. I think it's only right that that persons name is passed on to the gardai so they can try and bring an end to the open investigation in the mans murder ?

I'm afraid it does. It was even discussed on the radio today.
The case I am aware of, the files are all sitting with a solicitor waiting to go since the Stormont House Agreement.
You are in for a bit of a shock.

The gardai know who the man knows and we all know, as Adams knew and Austin Stack knew, The chain stops there.
We know this as well because it was well known that the IRA and others would not reveal these secrets, before the GFA. The governments knew it too.
Just like it was hypocritical to start complaining when certain prisoners started to get released for certain crimes after the entire island voted for the GFA (the agreement we were involved in because we were not 'involved' allegedly ) it is hypocritical to start whinging now.
We have commitments under the GFA, the all involved parties to conflict Stormont House Agreement stems directly from those commitments.
Start lobbying to repeal the GFA or rescind it maybe?

who's winging Francie ? I'm trying to understand your point of view on this and I'm failing to as your not answering what is being asked of you. Btw what radio show and station was it discussed on today and I'll go and listen to it.

Johndoe86

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Nice deflection.

So care to answer the question?

What would you like me to say? It wasn't standing up to the British the killing of Gardai was carried out by a few scumbags simple as.

Wheeliebin30

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He

It is equally possible to write a list of the stuff the British and Unionists were up at the same time and pretend what the conflict was really about and the huge changes brought about.
Shame Paisley is dead because you could have asked who his sectarian state let had to 'allow about the place' by the time the conflict ended.

Is it OK to rape kids then hide their attackers because the British did it?

FrancieBrady

Itssoeasy wrote: »

A organisation that relied on secrecy and silence let an alledged non member into high ranking meetings in the 1970s ?

Jesus your last paragraph you'd swear he was the second coming. Gerry Adams isn't half the man John Hume is. I actually respect John Hume.

Hume was useful in the end but never forget he had to go on a solo run to do what he did. His party didn't favour it, prefering to not rock any boats and keep the comfy seats. The electorate showed them what they thought of that, when we finally got near to normal elections.

FrancieBrady

Itssoeasy wrote: »

who's winging Francie ? I'm trying to understand your point of view on this and I'm failing to as your not answering what is being asked of you. Btw what radio show and station was it discussed on today and I'll go and listen to it.

You are whinging about stuff we have all known was gonna happen when we voted for The GFA (the agreement we were involved in making because we were not 'involved' in the problem allegedly)
The IRA and Adams and SF have been consistent on this.
It is policy and there is a very good reason for it. Because if we don't have full disclosure then we will never know the full story of the conflict.

FrancieBrady

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Is it OK to rape kids then hide their attackers because the British did it?

Nope. And neither the IRA nor SF raped kids or hid their attackers.
People who happened to be in both organisations may have done the above though.
If a GAA footballer raped somebody, would you say the GAA raped somebody?

A little less sensational Indo style language and thought might help.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nope. And neither the IRA nor SF raped kids or hid their attackers.
People who happened to be in both organisations may have done the above though.
If a GAA footballer raped somebody, would you say the GAA raped somebody?

A little less sensational Indo style language and thought might help.

If the GAA covered up for them what would you say ?

Johndoe86

marienbad wrote: »

If the GAA covered up for them what would you say ?

Are you referring to Maria Cahill? I actually do believe that she was raped but her hate for the IRA is because her grandfather was a leading provisional (dead at the time) and the IRA didn't kill her rapist. I'd put money on it that she wanted that kangaroo court