Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

Jawgap

K-9 wrote: »

The sides are held to different standards though, the state forces are supposed to abide by conventions and rules.

Eg. The British got taken to the ECHR for breaches of human rights in Castlereagh.

IRA courts handed out murder sentences and kneecapped young lads.

.....and widows and taxi drivers.....

https://twitter.com/newsworthy_ie/status/806572999545651203

...And Justice

Jawgap wrote: »

They certainly do.

Gerry Adams expresses anger after being denied entry to White House

More deflection, the Yankees are murdering people left right and centre because they don't like a particular leader, go down that rabbit hole if you want, fire away. And it's sanctioned by the UN, so it's ok?

RandomName2

K-9 wrote: »

The sides are held to different standards though, the state forces are supposed to abide by conventions and rules.

Eg. The British got taken to the ECHR for breaches of human rights in Castlereagh.

IRA courts handed out murder sentences and kneecapped young lads.

I think that the mistake most people make is the fallacy that there always has to be a good side or a wrong side in a conflict. Sometimes both sides can be in the right. Or you can have something like the Troubles where combatants from all sides outdid each other in shameful behaviour.

The reason why Sinn Fein supports feel aggrieved is because they phrase everything with "butwhatabout Bloody Sunday" or "butwhatabout the UVF", as if that somehow exonerated terrible acts perpetrated by their own "side". It makes little sense in the republic of Ireland, which is hardly a binary equation.

Jawgap

...And Justice wrote: »

More deflection, the Yankees are murdering people left right and centre because they don't like a particular leader, go down that rabbit hole if you want, fire away. And it's sanctioned by the UN, so it's ok?

Yes they are and if SF are do interested in human tights why do they court and cavort at the centre of US power......in the belly of the beast! And why get so upset at bring excluded?

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

There's no argument - the victors write the history. 'Twas always thus since even before Thucydides.

Only fools accept it as gospel. Open your ears and eyes.

...And Justice

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes they are and if SF are do interested in human tights why do they court and cavort at the centre of US power......in the belly of the beast! And why get so upset at bring excluded?

I don't know, enlighten me, I have lost all faith in politics in this kip of a country, I'm planning to move to the Mediterranean next year, because this country is fcuked. Luckily there are plenty of jobs available in the country I'm looking at. Fcuk Ireland and it's rubbish political system. I'm going and I will never return(only for Christmas).

FrancieBrady

K-9 wrote: »

The sides are held to different standards though, the state forces are supposed to abide by conventions and rules.

Eg. The British got taken to the ECHR for breaches of human rights in Castlereagh.

IRA courts handed out murder sentences and kneecapped young lads.

But they don't abide when it suits. The UN sat on it's hands when the north combusted and the British and Irish govs sat idly by.
Forgive me if I think the UN is full of nonsense tbh.

Jawgap

...And Justice wrote: »

I don't know, enlighten me, I have lost all faith in politics in this kip of a country, I'm planning to move to the Mediterranean next year, because this country is fcuked. Luckily there are plenty of jobs available in the country I'm looking at. Fcuk Ireland and it's rubbish political system. I'm going and I will never return(only for Christmas).

Power, plain and simple. Like all the politicians they want to bask in the power of the Office of the US Presidency.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Only fools accept it as gospel. Open your ears and eyes.

Ah well, it's foolery that pays me well

Professor Moriarty

...And Justice wrote: »

I don't know, enlighten me, I have lost all faith in politics in this kip of a country, I'm planning to move to the Mediterranean next year, because this country is fcuked. Luckily there are plenty of jobs available in the country I'm looking at. Fcuk Ireland and it's rubbish political system. I'm going and I will never return(only for Christmas).

That's interesting. I'm wondering which Mediterranean country has a better political system than Ireland. Italy? Greece? Nevermind, it's off topic.

...And Justice

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's interesting. I'm wondering which Mediterranean country has a better political system than Ireland. Italy? Greece? Nevermind, it's off topic.

I have a friend in Majorca, they teach maths and 5 languages during the winter, and there's a shortage of engineers. Good pay too, I'd make a killing on this house and still be able to buy and have pocket change~ 100k

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Ah well, it's foolery that pays me well

All kinds of people get paid well. As you say, history is just one sided fiction based on fact.

Professor Moriarty

...And Justice wrote: »

I have a friend in Majorca, they teach maths and 5 languages during the winter, and there's a shortage of engineers. Good pay too, I'd make a killing on this house and still be able to buy and have pocket change~ 100k

Good for you. Palma is a great city if that's where you're going. Best of luck.

...And Justice

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Good for you. Palma is a great city if that's where you're going. Best of luck.

Thanks, that's where we're headed, power stations and all that, also offered a job in alcudia.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

All kinds of people get paid well. As you say, history is just one sided fiction based on fact.

No, it's an interpretation of events.

SF interpret the murder of Brian Stack, it seems, as an unfortunate accident of war, others see it as the murder of an unarmed public servant. The majority view is the latter, but it doesn't stop holding a different view.

Professor Moriarty

...And Justice wrote: »

Thanks, that's where we're headed, power stations and all that, also offered a job in alcudia.

The port is nice but very touristy. The old town is beautiful and much more refined. Enjoy and don't forget the factor 50.

...And Justice

Jawgap wrote: »

No, it's an interpretation of events.

SF interpret the murder of Brian Stack, it seems, as an unfortunate accident of war, others see it as the murder of an unarmed public servant. The majority view is the latter, but it doesn't stop holding a different view.

It was rougue IRA lads that did it. It wasn't right nor is any murder. Out of here to retire to the Mediterranean. Enjoy the shíte storm coming to Ireland folks. SF WILL be in power in the next government. I'm leaving because the AAA (UNEMPLOYMENT PARTY) are dicks and expect me to pay for everyone.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

No, it's an interpretation of events.

SF interpret the murder of Brian Stack, it seems, as an unfortunate accident of war, others see it as the murder of an unarmed public servant. The majority view is the latter, but it doesn't stop holding a different view.

A few posts ago it was written by the victors. That qualifies as fiction with facts in my book.

I think SF are very clear on what happened Brian Stack. He was killed.
The bit you want to gloss over is contained in Tom Hoare's statement about what was going on in Portlaoise.
Ignoring that is a bit like ignoring what America where doing in the Middle East when assessing why 9-11 happened.
Oh wait, don't a certain coterie of internet posters do that too?

Professor Moriarty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A few posts ago it was written by the victors. That qualifies as fiction with facts in my book.

I think SF are very clear on what happened Brian Stack. He was killed.
The bit you want to gloss over is contained in Tom Hoare's statement about what was going on in Portlaoise.
Ignoring that is a bit like ignoring what America where doing in the Middle East when assessing why 9-11 happened.
Oh wait, don't a certain coterie of internet posters do that too?

Brian Stack was murdered, not killed.

Godge

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So, what you are saying in effect here, is closure and answers for a whole community of victims, hinges on whether Adams told the full truth to a TV programme?
That no matter what he says or does subsequent to this 'issue' (which nobody seems to think important enough to keep a recording of, as I have never seen this lie) you and the rest of the cohort have decided he is telling the truth about nothing? Despite the fact that no charges have ever been brought against following extensive examination of several allegations?

Step back and have a look at that and tell us again about 'credibility'.

No, all I was saying is that Adams is a proven liar, so everything else he says needs to be considered in that light.

Godge

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You were not happy with ML doing it once in a blue moon, but silent on it happening again and again in relation to SF.

That warrants a QED . Well done.

Now this is where the hypocrisy of Sinn Fein and its supporters is at its heights.

Parliamentary Privilege says that you shouldn't name people not in the House and who are therefore unable to defend themselves. Alan Farrell named Dessie Ellis and Martin Ferris, he didn't accuse them of anything, he just said they should make statements to the Dail. He didn't break privilege then. Even more pertinent, he didn't name the other two people on the email.

On the other hand, Mary Lou named people like Des O'Malley who were not in the Dail to defend themselves.

FrancieBrady

Godge wrote: »

No, all I was saying is that Adams is a proven liar, so everything else he says needs to be considered in that light.

I find that is critical when appraising anything a politician has to say.

FrancieBrady

Godge wrote: »

Now this is where the hypocrisy of Sinn Fein and its supporters is at its heights.

Parliamentary Privilege says that you shouldn't name people not in the House and who are therefore unable to defend themselves. Alan Farrell named Dessie Ellis and Martin Ferris, he didn't accuse them of anything, he just said they should make statements to the Dail. He didn't break privilege then. Even more pertinent, he didn't name the other two people on the email.

On the other hand, Mary Lou named people like Des O'Malley who were not in the Dail to defend themselves.

As you were about lies, we can all assess what he was at. And that was before it was alleged TDs were being approached to name the two. At least Farrell had his 15 mins I suppose.

FrancieBrady

billy few mates wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Was he not?

billy few mates

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Was he not?

Spin Feign may attempt to minimise the event by saying "he was killed" as if it were a tragic road accident but to most right thinking people he was savagely murdered in cold blood "was he not"....?

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A few posts ago it was written by the victors. That qualifies as fiction with facts in my book.

I think SF are very clear on what happened Brian Stack. He was killed.
The bit you want to gloss over is contained in Tom Hoare's statement about what was going on in Portlaoise.
Ignoring that is a bit like ignoring what America where doing in the Middle East when assessing why 9-11 happened.
Oh wait, don't a certain coterie of internet posters do that too?

Yes, written by the victors, their interpretation of events.

Brian Stack was killed, that is fact. That fact is then interpreted by the historians through various conceptual 'lenses.' Some will regard it as a unfortunate 'accident of war' others as the cold blooded murder of an unarmed public servant.

It would serve you well to read 'What is history?' EH Carr's essay discussing the topic, it's where all first years start, and one of the abiding messages is that history is subjective because facts are subjective.

FrancieBrady

billy few mates wrote: »

Spin Feign may attempt to minimise the event by saying "he was killed" as if it were a tragic road accident but to most right thinking people he was savagely murdered in cold blood "was he not"....?

It was the IRA who gave the information that he was murdered. Nobody knew if he been killed for political reasons or not.
The IRA that is hellbent on protecting itself allegedly. At least the Stacks now know that.

rockatansky

This thread is a carbon copy of every thread to do with the North. Same points are made, same arguments over and over again.

There is absolutely zero chance of Gerry Adams giving the name of the contact that they met that day. Kenny knows it, Michael Martin knows it, anyone with with the slightest interest in Irish politics (north and south) knows it. Not an absolute hope.

I know Gerry is a murdering scumbag to most on here. But this opinion doesn't really count for anything. Should he decide to run again then the electorate of Louth will be given their chance to decide on his position within Dail Eireann come election time 2017.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, written by the victors, their interpretation of events.

Brian Stack was killed, that is fact. That fact is then interpreted by the historians through various conceptual 'lenses.' Some will regard it as a unfortunate 'accident of war' others as the cold blooded murder of an unarmed public servant.

It would serve you well to read 'What is history?' EH Carr's essay discussing the topic, it's where all first years start, and one of the abiding messages is that history is subjective because facts are subjective.

Did you get to the bit where they tell you to develop your own critical faculties and read the writings and interpretations of both sides? I got a lot out of that, made me realise that history without the engagement of said faculties is fiction peppered with facts.

billy few mates

rockatansky wrote: »

This thread is a carbon copy of every thread to do with the North. Same points are made, same arguments over and over again.

There is absolutely zero chance of Gerry Adams giving the name of the contact that they met that day. Kenny knows it, Michael Martin knows it, anyone with with the slightest interest in Irish politics (north and south) knows it. Not an absolute hope.

I know Gerry is a murdering scumbag to most on here. But this opinion doesn't really count for anything. Should he decide to run again then the electorate of Louth will be given their chance to decide on his position within Dail Eireann come election time 2017.

I for one hope Gerry Adams remains at the helm of Spin Feign for many many years to come, he's the gift that keeps on giving as far as I'm concerned.

FrancieBrady

rockatansky wrote: »

This thread is a carbon copy of every thread to do with the North. Same points are made, same arguments over and over again.

There is absolutely zero chance of Gerry Adams giving the name of the contact that they met that day. Kenny knows it, Michael Martin knows it, anyone with with the slightest interest in Irish politics (north and south) knows it. Not an absolute hope.

I know Gerry is a murdering scumbag to most on here. But this opinion doesn't really count for anything. Should he decide to run again then the electorate of Louth will be given their chance to decide on his position within Dail Eireann come election time 2017.

Exactly, a cul de sac echoing with faux outrage.

Think what it would mean for the future of this country if an Irish government made a stand and insisted the British removed their embargo and all the affected people on all sides got what they wanted from an open honest process?

That would be a huge unprecedented prize.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did you get to the bit where they tell you to develop your own critical faculties and read the writings and interpretations of both sides? I got a lot out of that, made me realise that history without the engagement of said faculties is fiction peppered with facts.

Well yeah........on my masters. Anyway, they wouldn't have let me get this far into my PhD (only 18 months to go!) if I didn't have the requisite faculties.

Btw, primary source material is far superior to secondary source stuff, even if it is mor difficult to work with.

rockatansky

billy few mates wrote: »

I for one hope Gerry Adams remains at the helm of Spin Feign for many many years to come, he's the gift that keeps on giving as far as I'm concerned.

To be honest I don't really believe that. I'd say quite the opposite is true in fact. There is so many things that should have knocked Gerry off as leader that it must be extremely frustrating for you to still see him there.

It's not as if they're suffering in terms of Dail seats come election time. With Brexit on the horizon, the electorate of this country about to kick Fine Gael to the kerb and bring Fianna Fail back from the dead, the publics concerns lie elsewhere.

When it comes to anything to do with the Troubles, as bad as it is, people just want to put it in the past and forget about it.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Well yeah........on my masters. Anyway, they wouldn't have let me get this far into my PhD (only 18 months to go!) if I didn't have the requisite faculties.

Btw, primary source material is far superior to secondary source stuff, even if it is mor difficult to work with.

Yeh, I have some of that primary source stuff on the Heavy Gang and other activities of the Irish security forces.

BTW, not all historians with PhD's and Masters manage to impress readers. Bargain Books beside Eason's is full of their work. Do you know it.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh, I have some of that primary source stuff on the Heavy Gang and other activities of the Irish security forces.

BTW, not all historians with PhD's and Masters manage to impress readers. Bargain Books beside Eason's is full of their work. Do you know it.

Lucky them. I'd love to walk into a physical book store and see something I wrote, even if it was in bargain books!

Anyway, my stuff is very boring - of interest only to 'statos' and anoraks like myself, although it did get me a 'walk on' part at a couple of fancy conferences, so there is that. I'm not doing it to get rich or even to give up the day job, I just like to read, a lot!

My advice would be to write something up using the material you have and send it for publication to somewhere like History Ireland.

billy few mates

rockatansky wrote: »

To be honest I don't really believe that. I'd say quite the opposite is true in fact. There is so many things that should have knocked Gerry off as leader that it must be extremely frustrating for you to still see him there.

It's not as if they're suffering in terms of Dail seats come election time. With Brexit on the horizon, the electorate of this country about to kick Fine Gael to the kerb and bring Fianna Fail back from the dead, the publics concerns lie elsewhere.

When it comes to anything to do with the Troubles, as bad as it is, people just want to put it in the past and forget about it.

Unfortunately for Mary Loo, the Algebra champ and the other young bloods in Sinn Fein the troubles will always be in their future while Gerry, Ferris and Ellis are sitting beside them, they'll never know which atrocity they'll have to condone or justify next...

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Lucky them. I'd love to walk into a physical book store and see something I wrote, even if it was in bargain books!

Anyway, my stuff is very boring - of interest only to 'statos' and anoraks like myself, although it did get me a 'walk on' part at a couple of fancy conferences, so there is that. I'm not doing it to get rich or even to give up the day job, I just like to read, a lot!

My advice would be to write something up using the material you have and send it for publication to somewhere like History Ireland.

I think I'll wait for a truth process. Don't trust historians, victors or otherwise.

rockatansky

billy few mates wrote: »

Unfortunately for Mary Loo, the Algebra champ and the other young bloods in Sinn Fein the troubles will always be in their future while Gerry, Ferris and Ellis are sitting beside them, they'll never know which atrocity they'll have to condone or justify next...

Not to their voters it wont. This type media and opposition hysterics is not really having the desired effect. When Gerry is on the Radio or when Dail time is spent reliving past instances related to the troubles, most people just turn it off or change over. In theory this should be damaging to Sinn Fein, but the reality is somewhat different.

billy few mates

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/noel-whelan-should-we-believe-gerry-adams-or-brian-stack-s-son-1.2897978

rockatansky

billy few mates wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/noel-whelan-should-we-believe-gerry-adams-or-brian-stack-s-son-1.2897978

It's an opinion piece. None of that is new information.

FrancieBrady

billy few mates wrote: »

Unfortunately for Mary Loo, the Algebra champ and the other young bloods in Sinn Fein the troubles will always be in their future while Gerry, Ferris and Ellis are sitting beside them, they'll never know which atrocity they'll have to condone or justify next...

As per the OP and the timewasting question. Do you think it would be better if we just locked up all the information and allowed people to consolidate their power like FF and FG did at the foundation of the state? Would that be healthier, more moral or just wonderfully expedient for the power hungry?

Godge

rockatansky wrote: »

To be honest I don't really believe that. I'd say quite the opposite is true in fact. There is so many things that should have knocked Gerry off as leader that it must be extremely frustrating for you to still see him there.

It's not as if they're suffering in terms of Dail seats come election time. With Brexit on the horizon, the electorate of this country about to kick Fine Gael to the kerb and bring Fianna Fail back from the dead, the publics concerns lie elsewhere.

When it comes to anything to do with the Troubles, as bad as it is, people just want to put it in the past and forget about it.

People forget that between the Euro elections and the general election, only one party lost votes - Sinn Fein. Every other party saw an increase in the number of votes that they got. Now, it is normal to see an increase from Euro election to general election because of the higher turnout in the general election. It is almost unheard of to see a decrease in actual votes as happened Sinn Fein.

This fact has been conveniently forgotten everywhere except possibly in SF inner circles where it will have caused some worry.

FrancieBrady

Godge wrote: »

People forget that between the Euro elections and the general election, only one party lost votes - Sinn Fein. Every other party saw an increase in the number of votes that they got. Now, it is normal to see an increase from Euro election to general election because of the higher turnout in the general election. It is almost unheard of to see a decrease in actual votes as happened Sinn Fein.

This fact has been conveniently forgotten everywhere except possibly in SF inner circles where it will have caused some worry.

I have yet to see a committed political party who will give up the ghost because of fluctuations in votes. Perhaps those ones that were set up because politicians couldn't get their own way, like the PD's or Renua maybe, but a party like SF I think you might be waiting.

Godge

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As you were about lies, we can all assess what he was at. And that was before it was alleged TDs were being approached to name the two. At least Farrell had his 15 mins I suppose.

Nothing to do with Farrell's 15 minutes.

Mary Lou's breach of parliamentary privilege to name Des O'Malley has come back to bite SF in the arse, and even then Farrell didn't breach parliamentary privilege.

Didn't stop the SF acolytes in the media whinging and crying about it.

Godge

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have yet to see a committed political party who will give up the ghost because of fluctuations in votes. Perhaps those ones that were set up because politicians couldn't get their own way, like the PD's or Renua maybe, but a party like SF I think you might be waiting.

Where did I say that they would or should give up the ghost?

I just pointed out their unique achievement.

FrancieBrady

Godge wrote: »

Where did I say that they would or should give up the ghost?

I just pointed out their unique achievement.

How many slumps in vote have FF or FG had over the years? Your point is abouyt nothing really.

FrancieBrady

Watching the Week In Politics there and a few thought's:

When will a journalist ask a FF or FG politician what they think the consequences of getting Adams to inform would be. Or has said politician ever had to do something that was, in their opinion, for the greater good.
Or ask, why is it that some equal Dail time is not given to attacking the lack of cooperation from the British on full disclosure.

Why has no journalist challenged the assertion made again and again that a death in the republic could not be related to the conflict. The ultimate insult to those affected and partitionism gone mad.

Fleawuss

The Stack murder was an attack on the Irish state. The legitimacy of Ireland was never accepted by Provos and others who tried to monopolies the name of Republican for themselves. That's the essential problem of SFs attempts to get into govt. For years they denied the legitimacy of the state and now they want to run it. Adams is caught between that past and that future, hence all the emphasis on truth commissions for everyone. He wants the past dealt with in one big lump and he wants to lump the murders of Gardai and soldiers and prison officers in there too.

I think he should be told to fcuk off. Ireland wasn't at war with anyone. The only truth commission we need is a court of law.

FrancieBrady

Fleawuss wrote: »

The Stack murder was an attack on the Irish state. The legitimacy of Ireland was never accepted by Provos and others who tried to monopolies the name of Republican for themselves. That's the essential problem of SFs attempts to get into govt. For years they denied the legitimacy of the state and now they want to run it. Adams is caught between that past and that future, hence all the emphasis on truth commissions for everyone. He wants the past dealt with in one big lump and he wants to lump the murders of Gardai and soldiers and prison officers in there too.

I think he should be told to fcuk off. Ireland wasn't at war with anyone. The only truth commission we need is a court of law.

If Ireland wasn't involved in the conflict/war why did it spend our money securing a border for unionists and the British, why did it censor Irish citizens, deploy and provision a Heavy Gang?

Of course we were all part of the conflict/war, why would Ireland be part of the agreement that saw it end if it had nothing to do with us?
Regina Doherty revisionist nonsense to be honest with you.
*We won't mention Jack Lynch's scardey cat attempt to get involved.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If Ireland wasn't involved in the conflict/war why did it spend our money securing a border for unionists and the British, why did it censor Irish citizens, deploy and provision a Heavy Gang?

Of course we were all part of the conflict/war, why would Ireland be part of the agreement that saw it end if it had nothing to do with us?
Regina Doherty revisionist nonsense to be honest with you.
*We won't mention Jack Lynch's scardey cat attempt to get involved.

Where did Ireland secure a border?
I lived beside the border and I never saw any Irish army securing the border?