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Nightmare lodger stealing

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    #32
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,120 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    The OP has been asked to collect and send the rent to the LL. He does that. It's not his place to ensure his LL is tax compliant. Legally the LL should be tax complaint, but there is no onus, legally or otherwise, on the OP to ensure this or even speak to the LL on this.

    The tenant is not ensuring the LL is tax complaint. What they are obliged to do(its in law) is to withhold 20% of the rent which will be used against the LL's tax return. It is still the LL's responsibility to be tax complaint.

    And it only applies when the LL is residing outside the state.

    Its the revenues way of keeping non-resident LL's honest!


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    #33
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    The OP has been asked to collect and send the rent to the LL. He does that. It's not his place to ensure his LL is tax compliant. Legally the LL should be tax complaint, but there is no onus, legally or otherwise, on the OP to ensure this or even speak to the LL on this.

    Maybe you should go read the law. The tenant is legally required to withhold the tax to be paid to Revenue if the LL is overseas.

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it70.html#section21

    Mod note:
    That is all outside the issue that the OP has. Please stick to the topic from now on.


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    #34
    screamer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,153 ✭✭✭screamer


    OP I'd be very careful about how you go about getting rid of him. I know it's not your house, but you live there, and a disgruntled ahole could well come back and break the windows/ damage your stuff etc. You don't need that sort of bad blood. It's a tough situation but I'd try and give him no reason to be disgruntled about it. I know your landlady doesn't want to know about it, but realistically, you need to have that neutral overall voice there somewhere that can call the shots on the tenants/ licencees etc, as otherwise, the next time you have a head the ball living in the house, it'll be the same problems.


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    #35
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,965 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    screamer wrote: »
    OP I'd be very careful about how you go about getting rid of him. I know it's not your house, but you live there, and a disgruntled ahole could well come back and break the windows/ damage your stuff etc. You don't need that sort of bad blood. It's a tough situation but I'd try and give him no reason to be disgruntled about it. I know your landlady doesn't want to know about it, but realistically, you need to have that neutral overall voice there somewhere that can call the shots on the tenants/ licencees etc, as otherwise, the next time you have a head the ball living in the house, it'll be the same problems.

    This plus lots.

    Yes legally you can just toss him onto the street. But sometimes the law is an ass.

    Exercise a few brain cells, and imagine what he's likely to do next. Either he will flip out and do something to hurt you immediately, or he'll focus on finding somewhere to put his stuff and then plan a more comprehensive revenge. The chance that he will go away quietly so you can live happily ever after is very, very small.

    Focus on damage minimisation. Keep your room locked and leave minimal stuff for him to steal. Make the guards aware. Offer to give a good reference about him to places he's looking at - yes this means lying. Remember that he's not going to vanish into thin air: in order to move out he has to have somewhere to go.


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    #36
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,414 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    This plus lots.

    Yes legally you can just toss him onto the street. But sometimes the law is an ass.

    Exercise a few brain cells, and imagine what he's likely to do next. Either he will flip out and do something to hurt you immediately, or he'll focus on finding somewhere to put his stuff and then plan a more comprehensive revenge. The chance that he will go away quietly so you can live happily ever after is very, very small.

    Focus on damage minimisation. Keep your room locked and leave minimal stuff for him to steal. Make the guards aware. Offer to give a good reference about him to places he's looking at - yes this means lying. Remember that he's not going to vanish into thin air: in order to move out he has to have somewhere to go.

    This is why we have the kind of society we have and thugs like this think they can get away with this outrageous behaviour and threats (not to mention the illegality of stealing) when we have nampy bampying like this encouraged (and rewarded). I wouldn't be pussy footing around this s***bag- I totally agree with contacting the Guards however.


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    #37
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Lodgerfromhell wrote: »
    threatening to burn my car and house)

    Aside from anything else, you should pop down to the local garda station, tell them this and ask them to make an official record of it.

    You don't have to get them to act on it just yet, but it could be very useful going forward to have a record.


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    #38
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    road_high wrote: »
    This is why we have the kind of society we have and thugs like this think they can get away with this outrageous behaviour and threats (not to mention the illegality of stealing) when we have nampy bampying like this encouraged (and rewarded). I wouldn't be pussy footing around this scumbag- I totally agree with contacting the Guards however.

    Not really, avoiding a head-on/aggressive conflict means that the problem guy doesn't have his normal ammunition and won't be able to make you act rashly.

    If OP does that then they'll be playing the game on the other guy's terms, which he's probably better at.


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    #39
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,414 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    Not really, avoiding a head-on/aggressive conflict means that the problem guy doesn't have his normal ammunition and won't be able to make you act rashly.

    If OP does that then they'll be playing the game on the other guy's terms, which he's probably better at.

    Not necessarily talking about a full fire-with-fire conflict but meeting him full-on by kicking him out of the house and thereby controlling the things you can control i.e. getting him out of there.


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    #40
    Lodgerfromhell
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Lodgerfromhell


    Well the gardai were a disaster. They insisted it was Civil matter despite I telling them it was trespass.


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    #41
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,485 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    I would say the chances of this guy actually leaving on the 30th are very slim, and you should make decisions with that in mind.


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    #42
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,336 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Lodgerfromhell wrote: »
    Well the gardai were a disaster. They insisted it was Civil matter despite I telling them it was trespass.

    If he's there more than 6 months then he is entitled to security of tenure just as you are. The anti social behaviour aspects might warrant an eviction but you will need to get the landlord's approval for that.

    I fully support you getting rid of him but you'all need to do it lawfully.


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    #43
    Lodgerfromhell
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Lodgerfromhell


    Marcusm wrote: »
    If he's there more than 6 months then he is entitled to security of tenure just as you are. The anti social behaviour aspects might warrant an eviction but you will need to get the landlord's approval for that.

    I fully support you getting rid of him but you'all need to do it lawfully.
    He's there since October 1


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    #44
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,965 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    road_high wrote: »
    This is why we have the kind of society we have and thugs like this think they can get away with this outrageous behaviour and threats (not to mention the illegality of stealing) when we have nampy bampying like this encouraged (and rewarded). I wouldn't be pussy footing around this s***bag- I totally agree with contacting the Guards however.

    First time I've ever been accused of being namby pamby! I usually get warnings for being too hard-ass.

    I'm not proposing being soft, just managing the interaction to minimise the chances of the guy burning the place down after he's left.

    As the OP has found, the guards are not going to do anything about a housemate stealing your food, drugs etc.

    Best case the guy will move into his girlfriends place.

    The OP probably needs to have an up front conversation about the conditions for giving the deposit back - maybe even to pay the guy to leave early. Yes it sucks- but it's what professional landlords do.


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    #45
    Moomat
    Registered Users Posts: 660 ✭✭✭Moomat


    Lodgerfromhell wrote: »
    Well the gardai were a disaster. They insisted it was Civil matter despite I telling them it was trespass.

    The guards weren't lying. Trespass can only be prosecuted when it is trespass with intent to commit a crime.


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    #46
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,336 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Lodgerfromhell wrote: »
    He's there since October 1

    He doesn't have security of tenure. As regards the Gardai, trespass is a civil matter until such times as he causes fear or commits criminal damage. If neither applies then it simply not a matter for them.


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    #47
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,644 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Moomat wrote: »
    The guards weren't lying. Trespass can only be prosecuted when it is trespass with intent to commit a crime.

    Only thing he is committing crimes of theft and threats.

    Op you need to get that person out but have others there with you and call guards if needed especially outside the property if things go sour.


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    #48
    FAILSAFE 00
    Registered Users Posts: 5,419 ✭✭✭FAILSAFE 00


    Have the locks changed. Let him know that he may pick up his things at a scheduled time.

    Make sure you have friends with you there at this scheduled time.

    You'll be happy once you have it behind you. Right now the lodger is testing you to see what he can getaway with.


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    #49
    Lodgerfromhell
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Lodgerfromhell


    Well he made it clear he is not moving and his girlfriend is staying and it's home bla bla bla.

    Sure if I change the locks the gardai are going to let him back, pretty much what they said today.


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    #50
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Marcusm wrote: »
    If he's there more than 6 months then he is entitled to security of tenure just as you are. The anti social behaviour aspects might warrant an eviction but you will need to get the landlord's approval for that.

    I fully support you getting rid of him but you'all need to do it lawfully.

    No he's not. He's a licensee. The rights that tenants acquire under Part IV do not apply here. In either case, he's only been there since October.

    OP - do you really think he's going to move out on the 30tg, which is the middle of Christmas? I sincerely doubt it


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    #51
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    daRobot wrote: »
    Don't do any of the above. He has legal rights in the house.

    A hasty move here and you'll end up screwing yourself.
    He has no legal rights at all.
    Marcusm wrote: »
    How long has he been in the house? If he has been there more than 6 months as a licensee of a tenant then he is entitled to be treated as a tenant by the landlord with part 4 rights. These are rights against the landlord not you as head tenant.
    A licensee stays a licensee. They don't gain rights.
    Marcusm wrote: »
    If he's there more than 6 months then he is entitled to security of tenure just as you are.
    Eh, no. Where are you getting this from?
    Lodgerfromhell wrote: »
    Well the gardai were a disaster. They insisted it was Civil matter despite I telling them it was trespass.
    Consider moving out. Life is too short for this crap.

    Aside from someone (not the OP, as that's against the forum rules) beating the crap out of the s***bag (and even then the OP has no guarantee that the s***bag won't carry out his threats), there's not much reason for the s***bag to leave.


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    #52
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,336 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    dudara wrote: »
    No he's not. He's a licensee. The rights that tenants acquire under Part IV do not apply here. In either case, he's only been there since October.

    OP - do you really think he's going to move out on the 30tg, which is the middle of Christmas? I sincerely doubt it

    You need to reread part 4; a licensee of a tenant (i.e. Not an owner occupier) is entitled, upon residing there for 6 months, to become a tenant of the landlord affording him all of the rights of what are then his fellow tenants. It's not the case here so is probably not worth further explanation.


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    #53
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,336 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    the_syco wrote: »
    He has no legal rights at all.


    A licensee stays a licensee. They don't gain rights.


    Eh, no. Where are you getting this crap from?


    Consider moving out. Life is too short for this crap.

    Aside from someone (not the OP, as that's against the forum rules) beating the crap out of the s**%bag (and even then the OP has no guarantee that the s***bag won't carry out his threats), there's not much reason for the s***bag to leave.

    I am getting this from sections 48-50 residential Tenancies Act 2004. A person who moves in as a licensee of a tenant (not an owner/occupier) gets an entitlement to be treated as a tenant vis a vis the landlord and the other tenants ("multiple occupants") after 6 months of residence.


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    #54
    Lodgerfromhell
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭Lodgerfromhell


    He's not here six months, only since October this year


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    #55
    gerry xx
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭gerry xx


    I would recommend contacting the PRTB and getting advise there. They will advise you of the correct course of action.

    You have right sin this situation as does he.

    The stealing will be seen as a civil matter unless you have solid proof it was him that stole and brought it t the guards attention.


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    #56
    screamer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,153 ✭✭✭screamer


    You need to get your landlady involved here. You're not the owner of the property, and really, you're kind of in limbo. As I thought, the gardai won't get involved. This is the problem, you can go all heavy handed and boot him out etc, but really, who will you call on if he goes nuts and comes back and smashes the house up when you're all at work?. If he's on drugs, he could do anything at all. That is agro that you don't want to bring on yourself or others living in the house.

    As regards the stealing food etc, well, you'd have a hard time proving it, even if you know it to be 1000% true. You need to get the landlady to intervene here and get him out of the house. That, or you need to move out yourself.


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    #57
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,414 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Can't believe anyone suggesting the OP- should move out! - as Maggie Thatcher once said, No, No, No!!


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    #58
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Marcusm wrote: »
    You need to reread part 4; a licensee of a tenant (i.e. Not an owner occupier) is entitled, upon residing there for 6 months, to become a tenant of the landlord affording him all of the rights of what are then his fellow tenants. It's not the case here so is probably not worth further explanation.

    Yes and no. The licensee needs to request.
    In some instances the multiple occupants will all be tenants but in other instances they will be a mixture of tenants and licensees. A tenancy becomes a Part 4 tenancy on the earliest date at which one of the tenants has been in occupation for 6 months. During the existence of a Part 4 tenancy any lawful licensee of the tenant/s may request the landlord to be allowed to become a tenant of the tenancy. The landlord may not unreasonably refuse such a request and must give his/her acceptance in writing. All the rights, restrictions and obligations of a tenant will then apply to the former licensee except that the protection of the Part 4 tenancy will not apply until the former licensee has completed 6 months of continuous occupation counting time spent as a licensee and as a tenant.


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    #59
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,414 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Lodgerfromhell wrote: »
    Well the gardai were a disaster. They insisted it was Civil matter despite I telling them it was trespass.

    No harm making them aware though, if anything was to happen. Make a note of whom you spoke to and the date/time.


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    #60
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Lodgerfromhell wrote: »
    Foggy_lad thanks for all your advice, I had thought he had limited rights but wasn't sure how fast I could get rid of him. Since it was on the lease to not smoke do I keep part of his deposit or just give it all back and hopefully never hear from him again
    Use the return of the deposit as leverage when you get them out!
    Marcusm wrote: »
    How long has he been in the house? If he has been there more than 6 months as a licensee of a tenant then he is entitled to be treated as a tenant by the landlord with part 4 rights.The LL can't reasonably refuse them a tenancy but with claims of theft and anti social behaviour the LL would be reasonable to refuse this person! These are rights against the landlord not you as head tenant. If I were you, I would focus on eviction on the grounds of anti social behaviour rather than asserting that he has no security of tenure.
    They are not there 6 months so have no rights nor security of tenure!
    Marcusm wrote: »
    If he's there more than 6 months then he is entitled to security of tenure just as you are. The anti social behaviour aspects might warrant an eviction but you will need to get the landlord's approval for that.

    I fully support you getting rid of him but you'all need to do it lawfully.
    See above. This guy is a licensee and has no tenancy rights.
    Lodgerfromhell wrote: »
    Well he made it clear he is not moving and his girlfriend is staying and it's home bla bla bla.

    Sure if I change the locks the Gardai are going to let him back, pretty much what they said today.
    Once he is out on the street do not let him back in under any circumstances!

    If any Garda tells you to let them back in to stay just tell them you want that in writing, preferably in the form of a court order! Suggest that they will be held personally liable for any damage or losses if they insist on you taking the s*** back in.

    These people are your guests and have been asked to leave! If a Garda tells you otherwise they need to go back to Templemore and spend a bit more time in the classrooms!


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    #61
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    road_high wrote: »
    Can't believe anyone suggesting the OP- should move out! - as Maggie Thatcher once said, No, No, No!!
    Unless the OP throws the s***bag out themselves, risking bodily harm and property damage, the only other option is to move.

    I can't say what I'd do, as it'd be going against a few of the rules for this forum,


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