Landlord insisting on cash payments - options

MissFlitworth

We rented a house recently, through an agent. When I've done this before the agent has always been where rent was paid to and assumed it was the same in this case. A few weeks into the tenancy though the agent got in touch to say that the landlord would prefer cash and the previous tenants had no problems with him dropping in once a month to pick it up. I said 'haha - no' because it's quite a lot of money (€1600/month) and I don't want to carry that around with me, don't regularly want to have that amount of cash in the house & I don't want to have to meet with this guy once a month (work full time, travel, baby due in a couple of months, just don't like the inconvenience [and have done this before, for a far smaller sum, and it is a total pain in the ass even if on the surface 'once a month' sounds like nothing]). But he's insistent. Do we actually have any options here - I can bluster on about how it's unsafe and a very odd thing to ask for there's nothing that I can see that's actually illegal about him insisting on a cash payment, intrinsically dodgy and all as it is. I don't think he has to give me a bank account or accept a bank draft. He did threaten our tenancy over it, nice chap and all that he is, but probably within his rights to do that so early on in the tenancy also.

amcalester

What does it say in your lease?

athtrasna

The calling round once a month is on dodgy legal ground as it would disturb your quiet enjoyment of the property.

So many alarm bells. As well as all the reasons you listed banks don't count cash withdrawals as rent when assessing your ability to pay a mortgage so this will work against you in so many ways.

Think it's time to reason with your landlord. I would be inclined to call the RTB first to see if your tenancy is registered as mentioning that it is/isn't may help your case.

TheAnalyst_

Just refuse. There is nothing he can do.

Del2005

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Just refuse. There is nothing he can do.

Apart from eviction. There's no law requiring payment to be electronic or cheque/draft and there are plenty of reasons why people don't deal with banks, especially since rent is paid in advance there isn't even a debt to be paid.

TheAnalyst_

He can't evict. He would have to prove deliberate non payment and no tribunual or court would accept it.

BettePorter

What's your issue? Personally for me it would be him
Calling once a month. Pain in the ass, been there done that back in day and for almost two weeks of the month depending on his reliability you could hang about anticipating the knock! And in that time u could dip into the pot and suddenly your hiding behind the sofa cause you thought **** it he wont be here before pay day.

It wouldn't bother me as much if you could arrange to call to him rather than him to you! Is that possible?

Danger781

athtrasna wrote: »

As well as all the reasons you listed banks don't count cash withdrawals as rent when assessing your ability to pay a mortgage so this will work against you in so many ways. .

How true is this? I currently pay my rent in cash every month also, but if this is going to affect my mortgage application then screw that, he can take bank transfer or I'm giving my notice.. :eek: I have a rent book..

davindub

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

He can't evict. He would have to prove deliberate non payment and no tribunual or court would accept it.

The LL can evict within the 1st 6 months of the tenancy, you have normal contract rights in the lease during this period, but damages are likely to be limited to rent paid and benefits denied.

BettePorter

Danger781 wrote:

How true is this?

Very true. As far as is bank concerned, without a paper trail , you could be putting it on a horse!

exaisle

Why the landlord wants the rent in cash is none of your business. As long as he fills in and signs a rent book you have proof of payment. Him calling to collect rent does not impact on your quiet enjoyment of the property, it's just a pita!

Cash is king the LL is perfectly entitled to request payment in cash.

Never got this excuse of not wanting to carry cash around either, I normally withdraw a few hundred euro at a time when I go to the ATM and have no problem carrying much more if needs be.

Mrs OBumble

Liam Brief Streetcar wrote: »

Cash is king the LL is perfectly entitled to request payment in cash.

Never got this excuse of not wanting to carry cash around either, I normally withdraw a few hundred euro at a time when I go to the ATM and have no problem carrying much more if needs be.

I thought this was a republic and we didn't do the kowtowing to kings thing here?

There's a vast difference between a few hundred (400 is the max an ATM will give me in one go) and and month's rent. (I think the OP mentioned 1600 = 4 x daily withdrawls at the limit).

Anyone who wants that amount of cash is doing something dodgy, at best.

road_high

Sounds like major hassle op. I wouldn't be interested in renting a property like that, having to go to the bank and physically withdraw €1600 monthly, not to mention the security risks. Nah, at that range (it's very expensive) you hopefully will have more conventional options.
Now if he were to offer a few hundred off the return for your flexibility then I'd be all ears.
What does the lease say?

Barely Hedged

<deleted quote snipped>

As a tax compliant member of society (I assume), it would be the tenants business to ensure it is all above board I.e. registered with the PRTB is one step

Barely Hedged

Liam Brief Streetcar wrote: »

Cash is king the LL is perfectly entitled to request payment in cash.

Never got this excuse of not wanting to carry cash around either, I normally withdraw a few hundred euro at a time when I go to the ATM and have no problem carrying much more if needs be.

I can transfer 1.6k instantaneously to another ROI account with AIB. The recipient can then pick up this money in any branch countrywide. Is the banks cash any less valuable? The only difference between what the landlord wants and what I have described is business hours but even some Ulster Bank branches open on weekends

Earleybird

Barely Hedged wrote: »

As a tax compliant member of society (I assume), it would be the tenants business to ensure it is all above board I.e. registered with the PRTB is one step

I completely agree, while it may not be the case it would seem very odd that anyone would want cash rather than transfer, almost certainly looking to hide his money from someone. I would stick to your guns and pay into account, it's not only hassle to have amounts in cash, it's not appropriate for a landlord to have an excuse to drop in once a month and if you're looking to show proof of rent paid in future you may have trouble doing so.

The landlord might threaten eviction but you can take appropriate action at this stage if it comes to it. I would start by checking registration with PRTB.

Lumen

The biggest risk is being robbed on rent day. I wouldn't put myself in physical danger for a dodgy landlord

The fact that he's threatening eviction pushes it way beyond inconvenient. I would be inclined to report him to revenue at the very least.

Parchment

I wouldnt be happy with this - its a large sum of cash to have on hand. Also you would have to ensure you (or your partner/whoever) can take out their half in one go from an ATM, otherwise it means going to an ATM over the course of two days or worse still...having to go into the bank and queue to get it. All banks seem to have just one employee at a desk these days!

Also as others mentioned - if you apply for a mortgage the first thing they look for on your statements is rent going out each month, we pay via bank transfer to our landlord and his name comes up as the recipient.

But above all i wouldnt find him calling each month appropriate.

CramCycle

Nothing wrong with it but I would not be comfy walking round with 1600 in cash. Would a cheque to cash work? Or a cheque to him that he can cash in your branch.

enricoh

Tell him u' ll drop cash into him once a month n you want 80 quid off for the hassle - everyone's a winner.
Or even better meet him at the local pub n get a pint or two in!

pwurple

Landlords do this for a few reasons... to regularly check the property is one. I've pickd up the rent in person on a monthly basis when I had a tenant that the neighbours were complaining about. I took a cheque, but yeah, it was to check up on them basically and make sure they were behaving themselves.

The other is tax evasion. Cash does not show up on accounts for tax return purposes.

As you are a new tenant, and I assume with no complaints against you so far, and the 'insistance'... I'm going to assume it's the tax.

Us tax compliant landlords pay ~50% of that rent straight to the exchequer. It's a lot of money to be losing, so obviously very tempting for people to try to evade when there is a way to do so with cash.

If he's pushing it, with no reasonable explanation, I'd call revenue in a flash. This kind of thing winds me up. Rents are bloody massive, and these feckers double their income at the taxpayers (and your) expense.

Your other option is to say... yeah sure, but 800, not 1600. Seeing as that should be his tax-free income from it.

pwurple

enricoh wrote: »

Tell him u' ll drop cash into him once a month n you want 80 quid off for the hassle - everyone's a winner.
Or even better meet him at the local pub n get a pint or two in!

I assume that's a typo... should be 800, that's what he is potentially evading.

Honestly... would you be happy if your local shopkeeper was pocketing the VAT or duty you were paying instead of declaring it?

dr.fuzzenstein

There are only 2 possible reasons why the landlord would want cash only.
1: he's dodging tax
2: he's dodging mortgage payments and could possibly be in negative equity and he is stuffing as much into a mattress as he possibly can before the sherrif calls round.

There is also a remote option 3, he is fully legit, he just wants you to take half a day off once a month, toddle over to your bank, walk around with 1600 cash that could be stolen, him to drive over to yours, pick up the cash, drive home ahain so he can take half a day off to go to his bank and lodge it, but this is a very rote possibility, because you would have to have half your brain removed to want to do this.

LL is dodgy. Anyone argues different, you're wrong. No, shut up, you are.
OP, if you stay there it is possible you come home and find the locks changed because the bank or the state seized the asset due to irregularities and the LL will have scarpered, never to be seen again.
So if the LL asks you again for cash:

John_Rambo

Liam Brief Streetcar wrote: »

Cash is king the LL is perfectly entitled to request payment in cash.

Never got this excuse of not wanting to carry cash around either, I normally withdraw a few hundred euro at a time when I go to the ATM and have no problem carrying much more if needs be.

With respect Nox, you've never got this excuse because you're not a landlord, you've never been a landlord, in fact you've never bought a property. I know you post a lot on this forum with advice but you have zero experience so your posts, including this one can be taken with a pinch of salt.

Demanding cash bangs of amateur hour. Holding that amount on your person is unreasonable and unrealistic.

TheAnalyst_

davindub wrote: »

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

He can't evict. He would have to prove deliberate non payment and no tribunual or court would accept it.

The LL can evict within the 1st 6 months of the tenancy, you have normal contract rights in the lease during this period, but damages are likely to be limited to rent paid and benefits denied.

Not if he signed a lease with the agent which is 95% likely.

Clampdown

This LL calling to the house to pick up cash thing is a joke. Another typical <mod snip> cowboy landlord characteristic. I had a ll in college would call in every week and just let himself into the house. If I wanted to have someone 'checking up' on me as a poster said they do to their tenants, I'd live with my parents.

I would just point blank refuse and start looking for another place to move after Christmas. This guy is going to give you more problems I guarantee it. Do you have receipts for your deposit? Because IME these cash collector LLs are the worst for illegal deposit retention.

The estate agent should be advising the LL to do everything above board and with proper record keeping, but they won't because they're cowboys too and they only care about the landlord getting the rent so they get their cut.

My position would be, we can pay by bank or I'll post a cheque. No cash. No knocking on my door collecting money like a loan shark in a mob film. You don't like it, try and evict me while I file a case with the PRTB and I'll sit here and not pay a dime until the case is settled or you agree to accept payment through bank transfer or cheque.

Not enough for him to get 1600 a month for a place, it has to be tax free, ffs.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I thought this was a republic and we didn't do the kowtowing to kings thing here?

There's a vast difference between a few hundred (400 is the max an ATM will give me in one go) and and month's rent. (I think the OP mentioned 1600 = 4 x daily withdrawls at the limit).

Anyone who wants that amount of cash is doing something dodgy, at best.

Regularly over 1k in cash. I don't have a 400 euro limit (think it's 600 or 800) and I have more than one account. I pay my rent in cash and would often take out walking around money for the month on the same day. I've carried up to 10k in cash around too on plenty of occasions buying cars etc. Even brought a sum like that with me on a flight to buy a car in the UK.

I actually think the wanting to call around once a month to keep an eye on the place is very wise. Look at all the horror stories you read about here. Could you blame him. 3/4 places I've lived has been rent in cash so I don't see it as an odd thing at all.

newacc2015

One possibility is that they want to be sure that you pay on time every month. I know from speaking to landlords, if you collect your rents in cash a tenant is less likely to be late with it. You can't BS the landlord and say you wired it this morning, when you dont plan on paying your rent for another few days. Its much harder to lie to someone in person about being late with your rent than over the phone.

I know some LLs who have started a tenancy accepting bank transfers but ended up collecting the rent in cash as they were so sick of the constant hounding of their tenant to pay their rent on time and having to listen to BS excuses of they just wired it, they didnt get a chance to go to the bank to lodge cash to wire it etc.

I dont know why everyone is jumping to the conclusion that the landlord is dodgy and evading taxes. If you look at the list of tax evaders that Revenue regularly publishes, you will see dozens of Doctors, Dentists, Solicitors etc. But you will rarely find a landlord. Landlords are probably the most accused of people of tax evasion in Ireland, yet they are disproportionately less likely to be on tax evaders list. People are very aggressive and irate when they hear of a landlord asking for rent in cash, yet has zero problem handing a ton of cash to their Dentist or Doctor who statistically more likely to the tax evader...

TheAnalyst_

Liam Brief Streetcar wrote: »

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I . 3/4 places I've lived has been rent in cash so I don't see it as an odd thing at all.

We're not talking about bedsits we're talking about 1600 per month for some place. The tenant dictates how it is paid because he has all the cards. He is in situ and the law will back him.

athtrasna

newacc2015 wrote: »

I dont know why everyone is jumping to the conclusion that the landlord is dodgy and evading taxes. If you look at the list of tax evaders that Revenue regularly publishes, you will see dozens of Doctors, Dentists, Solicitors etc. But you will rarely find a landlord. Landlords are probably the most accused of people of tax evasion in Ireland, yet they are disproportionately less likely to be on tax evaders list. People are very aggressive and irate when they hear of a landlord asking for rent in cash, yet has zero problem handing a ton of cash to their Dentist or Doctor who statistically more likely to the tax evader...

Those professions you quote ARE the landlords!