Landlord insisting on cash payments - options

PucaMama

Liam Brief Streetcar wrote: »

Regularly over 1k in cash. I don't have a 400 euro limit (think it's 600 or 800) and I have more than one account. I pay my rent in cash and would often take out walking around money for the month on the same day. I've carried up to 10k in cash around too on plenty of occasions buying cars etc. Even brought a sum like that with me on a flight to buy a car in the UK.

I actually think the wanting to call around once a month to keep an eye on the place is very wise. Look at all the horror stories you read about here. Could you blame him. 3/4 places I've lived has been rent in cash so I don't see it as an odd thing at all.

Do people still take out loads of "walking around" money? Card is way handier.

PucaMama

PucaMama wrote: »

Do people still take out loads of "walking around" money? Card is way handier.

I operate almost fully in cash in day to day spending, just prefer it.

Look it's a bit of a pain having to get out 1600 euro every month but it's not totally unreasonable either and a LL has the right to request how rent is paid to him.

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

We're not talking about bedsits we're talking about 1600 per month for some place. The tenant dictates how it is paid because he has all the cards. He is in situ and the law will back him.

The law allows a LL to ask a tenant to leave without reason in the first 6 months. The tenant is far from having all the cards and I think it's bad advise to make someone think they do.

doolox

The reality is that in todays rental market he will get plenty of takers to rent to for cash and he will not be out by much when he gets rid of you and gets a new tenant in place.

He should have stated cash at the very start of the lease negotiations.

Reporting him to revenue may be a way to go but they are probably inundated with reports and may take a long time to do anything.

If you like the house and area and are happy with everything else in the house I might go with the cash thing eventually but I would be looking for a new house to rent in the new year and get away from this setup.

Guaranteed that he will have double digit number of new tenants looking to rent when or if you are gone an the Government tax man will still lose out.

TheAnalyst_

Liam Brief Streetcar wrote: »

The law allows a LL to ask a tenant to leave without reason in the first 6 months. The tenant is far from having all the cards and I think it's bad advise to make someone think they do.

Not if he has a fixed term lease which me most certainly does.

The_Conductor

Barely Hedged wrote: »

I can transfer 1.6k instantaneously to another ROI account with AIB. The recipient can then pick up this money in any branch countrywide. Is the banks cash any less valuable? The only difference between what the landlord wants and what I have described is business hours but even some Ulster Bank branches open on weekends

I wouldn't accept a large amount by EFT from an AIB account- you have no idea how much trouble AIB go to make life difficult for holders of bank accounts in other institutions. The last time I got an EFT from AIB (of 8k for a car)- it took over 2 weeks before it showed up in my Bank of Ireland account. Even an AIB cheque took a week to clear.

With all due respect- and I am not condoning the landlord's insistence on cash- I would be extremely reticent to countenance taking payment from anyone who banks with AIB.

I was told if I opened an account with AIB- they could clear cheques immediately- or if a lodgement was made to the account- it would be available immediately- however, why should someone be forced to open an account with an institution they do not normally deal with?

Vis-a-vis the landlord and cash- the OP is at the start of their tenancy. The landlord can end the tenancy in the first 6 months- without giving any reason.

I don't agree that its a good idea to go around with that amount of cash- its downright dangerous. However, as the OP has determined, there is nothing to say the landlord cannot demand payment in cash. It is damn inconvenient- and if I were in that position- I would, as the tenant, insist on meeting the landlord at my local banking institution- and handing over the cash within the branch- I would not leave the building with that much cash.

At the end of the day- if the tenant is not happy- they too, can end the tenancy and move elsewhere.

Its not fair expecting someone to carry around that much cash (to be honest- its not fair expecting someone to carry around cash of any sum- period)- however, the only manner I would countenance this- if I really wanted the property- is by handing over the cash- in the security of the local bank- I wouldn't exit the door with it.

RINO87

I'm going a bit off topic here but wondering what peoples views would be. I moved into my place about a year ago, sharing with two others. The LL wants all the rent in one go, which is perfectly acceptable in my opinion. So I give my portion in cash, to my housemate who has been in the property for years, he then lodges the cash to the LL's account. We don't get a receipt, housemate who handles the cash doesn't have a bank account for his own reasons, none of my business. I trust entirely that the money does indeed go to the LL on time, as sometimes I've had to do it, and the LL often thanks us for paying the correct amount on time.

Seeing as I simply hand the cash to my housemate, I have no real paper trail. I do make sure to withdraw the same amount each month on the same date, from the same ATM in the hope that it might go someway to proving to the bank that it;s rent money that i'm withdrawing. Is there any way I could go about getting proof that this money is indeed for rent?? We get receipts from the lodgement, but this is for the entire sum of the rent, and wouldnt have my name on it.

Ray Palmer

It is the landlord's choice and it is that simple.

People can speculate all they like why but it is not illegal and you don't know why they made the choice. You are entitled to a rent book as a receipt and that is that.

Don't like it move out.

The_Conductor

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It is the landlord's choice and it is that simple.

People can speculate all they like why but it is not illegal and you don't know why they made the choice. You are entitled to a rent book as a receipt and that is that.

Don't like it move out.

With all due respect- its not fair or normal to expect the OP to wander around with sixteen hundred euro in cash. Its downright dangerous. If it worked at all- I'd organise a hand-over in the OP's financial institution- so she wasn't forced to wander around with that much cash. It is not normal or fair for the landlord to pop around once a month for the rent- in this day and age.

If the OP is not in a position to organise a compromise with the landlord- then they really need to start looking elsewhere- and sooner rather than later (keeping in mind, they've said they have a baby on the way etc).

greendom

The_Conductor wrote: »

I wouldn't accept a large amount by EFT from an AIB account- you have no idea how much trouble AIB go to make life difficult for holders of bank accounts in other institutions. The last time I got an EFT from AIB (of 8k for a car)- it took over 2 weeks before it showed up in my Bank of Ireland account. Even an AIB cheque took a week to clear.

With all due respect- and I am not condoning the landlord's insistence on cash- I would be extremely reticent to countenance taking payment from anyone who banks with AIB.

I was told if I opened an account with AIB- they could clear cheques immediately- or if a lodgement was made to the account- it would be available immediately- however, why should someone be forced to open an account with an institution they do not normally deal with?

Vis-a-vis the landlord and cash- the OP is at the start of their tenancy. The landlord can end the tenancy in the first 6 months- without giving any reason.

I don't agree that its a good idea to go around with that amount of cash- its downright dangerous. However, as the OP has determined, there is nothing to say the landlord cannot demand payment in cash. It is damn inconvenient- and if I were in that position- I would, as the tenant, insist on meeting the landlord at my local banking institution- and handing over the cash within the branch- I would not leave the building with that much cash.

At the end of the day- if the tenant is not happy- they too, can end the tenancy and move elsewhere.

Its not fair expecting someone to carry around that much cash (to be honest- its not fair expecting someone to carry around cash of any sum- period)- however, the only manner I would countenance this- if I really wanted the property- is by handing over the cash- in the security of the local bank- I wouldn't exit the door with it.

you must be very unfortunate. With work I regularly make and receive payments through EFTs involving AIB. If both accounts are with AIB the transaction is completed on the same day. If another bank is involved the transfer is completed the next day.

The_Conductor

greendom wrote: »

you must be very unfortunate. With work I regularly make and receive payments through EFTs involving AIB. If both accounts are with AIB the transaction is completed on the same day. If another bank is involved the transfer is completed the next day.

I honestly think you're the one who is being lucky here- esp in the case of cheques. I've had nothing but nightmares dealing with customers who bank with AIB.

Gumbo

PucaMama wrote: »

Do people still take out loads of "walking around" money? Card is way handier.

It's not handier when shops have minimum spends limits for cards and if your out for a few drinks. For example, the Morrison hotel don't offer cash back, so,you'd be paying for each pint with the card as you go.

Then some banks charge per transaction.

greendom

The_Conductor wrote: »

I honestly think you're the one who is being lucky here- esp in the case of cheques. I've had nothing but nightmares dealing with customers who bank with AIB.

no I didn't mention cheques.

PucaMama

kceire wrote: »

It's not handier when shops have minimum spends limits for cards and if your out for a few drinks. For example, the Morrison hotel don't offer cash back, so,you'd be paying for each pint with the card as you go.

Then some banks charge per transaction.

Not many shops have minimum spend limits now, and most that do are a limit of 5 euro

The_Conductor

greendom wrote: »

no I didn't mention cheques.

I did in my previous post.
I was told by AIB if I wanted access to the cheque- it had to be lodged into an AIB account or else it entered clearing which could, if dealing with another institution take up to 2 weeks. For SEPA transactions from another Irish financial institution- depending on when the batch jobs are run- the norm is 3 days- unless their is an issue and it gets suspense accounted (according to AIB) in which case they will net the payments on a monthly basis (and in my case- which involved selling a car, it meant I didn't get paid until 2 weeks after I had handed over the car- when I thought it was an instantaneous transaction.

I was informed by BOI- that its faster to get a SEPA payment from any Eurozone financial institution into our account with them- than it is from an AIB customer. The only delays from the greater eurozone related to bank holidays that didn't line up with ours.

The_Conductor

PucaMama wrote: »

Not many shops have minimum spend limits now, and most that do are a limit of 5 euro

A lot of them may not have limits- but unless you have free fees with your bank- you probably only have a limited number of transactions per month, before you pay per transaction (I know I get 20 per month on my current account BOI). You could try to get around it by using a credit card, rather than a debit card- however, most places do have minimum spends on credit cards (typically 10 or 12 Euro).

greendom

The_Conductor wrote: »

I did in my previous post.
I was told by AIB if I wanted access to the cheque- it had to be lodged into an AIB account or else it entered clearing which could, if dealing with another institution take up to 2 weeks. For SEPA transactions from another Irish financial institution- depending on when the batch jobs are run- the norm is 3 days- unless their is an issue and it gets suspense accounted (according to AIB) in which case they will net the payments on a monthly basis (and in my case- which involved selling a car, it meant I didn't get paid until 2 weeks after I had handed over the car- when I thought it was an instantaneous transaction.

I was informed by BOI- that its faster to get a SEPA payment from any Eurozone financial institution into our account with them- than it is from an AIB customer. The only delays from the greater eurozone related to bank holidays that didn't line up with ours.

Cheques are a bit of an anachronism tbh. At work we still use them in exceptional circumstances and I can't remember the last time I wrote one in a personal capacity.

El_Duderino 09

Enzo Dead Switch wrote:

Regularly over 1k in cash. I don't have a 400 euro limit (think it's 600 or 800) and I have more than one account. I pay my rent in cash and would often take out walking around money for the month on the same day. I've carried up to 10k in cash around too on plenty of occasions buying cars etc. Even brought a sum like that with me on a flight to buy a car in the UK.

That's fine if you like to take on that risk with your money but this is a case of the landlord building in that risk after signing the lease.

Obviously holding large amounts of cash is an unnecessary excentricity of yours and that's absolutely your right. In a world of safe electronic transfers, it's madness to most people and they shouldn't be coerced into carrying cash which is more dangerous (it carries some danger while credit transfer carries zero danger if set up correctly)

Enzo Dead Switch wrote:

I actually think the wanting to call around once a month to keep an eye on the place is very wise. Look at all the horror stories you read about here. Could you blame him. 3/4 places I've lived has been rent in cash so I don't see it as an odd thing at all.

It's not an inspection though. The tenant could meet the ll at the gate/door of the apartment block and give them the money. The landlord has no right to enter the house so its not much use as a surreptitious inspection.

Why the cloak and dagger approach? If the ll wants monthly inspections, why would the ll not just ask for monthly inspevtions? Maybe because monthly inspections would be bordering on interfering with peaceful use of the property.

I wouldn't necessarily agree to monthly inspections. I'd maybe agree to an inspection after the first month so the ll can see how we live and how that will affect the house, then move to normal
Quarterly/twice yearly inspections.

Claw Hammer

davindub wrote: »

The LL can evict within the 1st 6 months of the tenancy, you have normal contract rights in the lease during this period, but damages are likely to be limited to rent paid and benefits denied.

A landlord can't terminate a fixed term agreement unless there is a breach of covenant by the tenant.

relax carry on

As has been said multiple times already, your landlord is operating a business and demanding cash only payments usually point to either under declaring of income, possible issues with financial institutions or cashflow issues. The days of cash is king should be long gone. For security and traceability above all else, I wouldn't deal in cash on a regular basis.

Ray Palmer

The_Conductor wrote: »

With all due respect- its not fair or normal to expect the OP to wander around with sixteen hundred euro in cash. Its downright dangerous. If it worked at all- I'd organise a hand-over in the OP's financial institution- so she wasn't forced to wander around with that much cash. It is not normal or fair for the landlord to pop around once a month for the rent- in this day and age.

If the OP is not in a position to organise a compromise with the landlord- then they really need to start looking elsewhere- and sooner rather than later (keeping in mind, they've said they have a baby on the way etc).

None of that matters. The landlord decides.

The danger is mostly in people's heads and I do understand it. As a tenant you don't get to decide how you wish to pay. The landlord doesn't have to accept them. The idea of something being 'fair' is just odd to me. Life isn't fair and there are tons of rental rules that aren't fair or considered, it's just the law.

amcalester

Ray Palmer wrote: »

None of that matters. The landlord decides.

The danger is mostly in people's heads and I do understand it. As a tenant you don't get to decide how you wish to pay. The landlord doesn't have to accept them. The idea of something being 'fair' is just odd to me. Life isn't fair and there are tons of rental rules that aren't fair or considered, it's just the law.

Why does the landlord decide?

Unless payment terms are explicitly stated in the lease then it's open to negotiation.

TheAnalyst_

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The_Conductor wrote: »

With all due respect- its not fair or normal to expect the OP to wander around with sixteen hundred euro in cash. Its downright dangerous. If it worked at all- I'd organise a hand-over in the OP's financial institution- so she wasn't forced to wander around with that much cash. It is not normal or fair for the landlord to pop around once a month for the rent- in this day and age.

If the OP is not in a position to organise a compromise with the landlord- then they really need to start looking elsewhere- and sooner rather than later (keeping in mind, they've said they have a baby on the way etc).

None of that matters. The landlord decides.

The danger is mostly in people's heads and I do understand it. As a tenant you don't get to decide how you wish to pay. The landlord doesn't have to accept them. The idea of something being 'fair' is just odd to me. Life isn't fair and there are tons of rental rules that aren't fair or considered, it's just the law.

There is no explicit law. It's for a judge or tribunal to decide what is reasonable and they will absolutely side with a tenant when it comes to paying 1600 per month. 

But the landlord will never take it to court because they are obviously desperately trying to hide this activity. The tenant holds the cards.

Ray Palmer

amcalester wrote: »

Why does the landlord decide?

Unless payment terms are explicitly stated in the lease then it's open to negotiation.

All he has to do is have it in the lease. There is a list of obligations the landlord must comply with and payments are one of them. Like payments for all things the seller decides. A LL has to provide a receipt via a rent book when wanting cash payments, it has legislation there is none for a tenant to decide how they wish to pay.

I do think it is unreasonable but how I feel doesn't come into it.

CramCycle

Check if the lease specifies a direct debit or not. I nhavent had a lease that was not direct debit for 10 years. Surprised other forms still existed bar the auld cash in hand, no receipt jobs.

Forbearance

The landlord can insist on cash payments, for whatever reason that is his/her prerogative, just like it is his prerogative to give the tenancy to another tenant. Presently, it is a landlord's market.

CramCycle

Forbearance wrote: »

The landlord can insist on cash payments, for whatever reason that is his/her prerogative, just like it is his prerogative to give the tenancy to another tenant. Presently, it is a landlord's market.

Depends on the lease. If the lease states DD then their might be a hope.

Barely Hedged

Ray Palmer wrote: »

None of that matters. The landlord decides.

The danger is mostly in people's heads and I do understand it. As a tenant you don't get to decide how you wish to pay. The landlord doesn't have to accept them. The idea of something being 'fair' is just odd to me. Life isn't fair and there are tons of rental rules that aren't fair or considered, it's just the law.

You mention a lot of grey areas that exist, and I agree. However the landlord (myself being one of several properties) is operating in these grey areas and can be called out on it as times have changed when compared with 10/20 years ago. Things are different now and non compliance with tax law is at the forefront of many people's thoughts. It's time for the landlord to realise that with all the technological advances in banking and with the advent of the PRTB, the time is up for cash payments for many obvious reasons.

Just as an aside, if this landlord is avoiding paying €800 a month in tax, who here wants to pay €800 a month on top of their existing tax obligations to compensate the Irish tax payer?

amcalester

Ray Palmer wrote: »

All he has to do is have it in the lease. There is a list of obligations the landlord must comply with and payments are one of them. Like payments for all things the seller decides. A LL has to provide a receipt via a rent book when wanting cash payments, it has legislation there is none for a tenant to decide how they wish to pay.

I do think it is unreasonable but how I feel doesn't come into it.

I agree that all he has to do is include it in the lease but if he hasn't done that then he can't retrospectively insist on cash payment, just as the tenant can't necessarily insist on EFT. Both parties need to agree on the payment method and if that is cash then the landlord must sign a rent book.

Unless of course you can point to legislation stating that the landlord can dictate the payment method outside the terms stated in the lease.

Annasopra

I would seek professional advice from the experts in Threshold http://www.threshold.ie/advice/

hognef

CramCycle wrote: »

Check if the lease specifies a direct debit or not. I nhavent had a lease that was not direct debit for 10 years. Surprised other forms still existed bar the auld cash in hand, no receipt jobs.

Very few landlords would be Direct Debit originators. I presume you mean Standing Order?