False rape accusation...who would you believe?

ittakestwo

Joining this late but the title of the thread "False rape accusation.... who would you believe" is confusing. If you knew it was a false accusation then why would you belive the accuser?

Do you mean. Accusation of rape denied.... who do you believe, accuser or defended?

Without knowing eithers character I would not take a side because it would be stupid do so.

One eyed Jack

walshb wrote: »

The single biggest problem today is that word rape doesn't mean what it used to. The lines have been blurred so much....

There are many men who have been found guilty of rape based off he said she said. Drink involved, was their consent etc etc. As if men and women need contracts before they engage in sexual acts.

In other words every single man today is a potential rapist going by the "rules" in play..

Rape to me is when a man forces himself upon a woman without her consent and with her resisting.

Without real evidence of force then I think these convictions are going to have a real element of doubt.

If you’re speaking strictly in the context of Irish legislation, then the definition of rape hasn’t changed at all, it’s the same as it’s always been, regardless of what it means in colloquial terms to you or to anyone else. It’s only in it’s legal context that it actually matters too, and the legal rules are the only rules in play, regardless of what anyone else would have you believe. I don’t think for a minute you genuinely believe the nonsense notion that every man is a potential rapist.

There was never a man was found guilty of rape solely on the basis of he said/she said. The prosecution has to present evidence to support their case. That’s quite a bit more than simply he said/she said, but if you wanted to stick to the he said/she said paradigm, then far more men have been found not guilty of rape when she said it did happen.

GreeBo wrote: »

Rape and False accusations should carry the same penalties.

They absolutely shouldn’t. The two offences (rape and perjury) aren’t even in the same ball park in any context.

py2006

ittakestwo wrote: »

Joining this late but the title of the thread "False rape accusation.... who would you believe" is confusing. If you knew it was a false accusation then why would you belive the accuser?

Do you mean. Accusation of rape denied.... who do you believe, accuser or defended?

Without knowing eithers character I would not take a side because it would be stupid do so.

I meant to say this ages ago then forgot to.

walshb

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There was never a man was found guilty of rape solely on the basis of he said/she said. The prosecution has to present evidence to support their case. T

How do you know?

I have read many cases where "evidence" presented was what the woman said vs what the man said. He said she said....

Yes, he said she said with arguments for it on both sides, but still a case of he said she said, and a jury deciding on who they believe to be telling the "truth."

One eyed Jack

walshb wrote: »

How do you know?

I have read many cases where "evidence" presented was what the woman said vs what the man said. He said she said....

Yes, he said she said with arguments for it on both sides, but still a case of he said she said, and a jury deciding on who they believe to be telling the "truth."

How do I know? I explained to you how I know in the very next sentence -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The prosecution has to present evidence to support their case. That’s quite a bit more than simply he said/she said, but if you wanted to stick to the he said/she said paradigm, then far more men have been found not guilty of rape when she said it did happen

_Brian

Have to be honest since what appears in the media is at best a second or third hand sensationalised account of such events I don’t really think about them at all.
They will be dealt with by proper authorities who have access to facts on both sides and who are trained to make decisions in such cases.

It does neither side any service to have the general public making silly decisions based on media hype and then fighting tooth and nail dondefend their decision on social media.

I just pass by these headlines without clicking to read anything about them.

iptba

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/defendants-in-rape-trials-should-not-be-anonymous-says-judge-1.3703425

(Northern Ireland)

Defendants in rape trials should not be anonymous, says judge
Confidence-building measures for complainants ‘who fear the cruel glare of public exposure’ are vital
about 16 hours ago

Myths

Sir John also said he was anxious to challenge the myths about rape which included: victims who drink alcohol or use drugs are asking to be raped; victims provoke rape by the way they dress or act; victims cry rape when they regret having sex or want revenge; victims who remain in an abusive relationship are responsible for any rape that follows; and false allegations are rife.

If even one person has cried rape after regretting sex or wanting revenge, then it is not a myth.

One eyed Jack

iptba wrote: »

If even one person has cried rape after regretting sex or wanting revenge, then it is not a myth.

It certainly isn’t by any means a myth -


Woman given suspended sentence for false rape claim

H3llR4iser

ittakestwo wrote: »

Joining this late but the title of the thread "False rape accusation.... who would you believe" is confusing. If you knew it was a false accusation then why would you belive the accuser?

Do you mean. Accusation of rape denied.... who do you believe, accuser or defended?

Without knowing eithers character I would not take a side because it would be stupid do so.

py2006 wrote: »

I meant to say this ages ago then forgot to.

I've always taken the title of this thread to be more of a reference to the situation that arises after the accused party has been cleared of the allegations - that he "slipped through the cracks", that the case was somehow rigged, that basically he got "away with it".

It's still happening even for a high profile case such as the Belfast one - it gets referred in discussion as to how "victims" need "more protection" and that "perpetrators" should be treated in harsher ways; Actually heard someone talking about a "reform" of the laws around rape in a direction that basically assumes "guilty until proven innocent" on the radio a few days ago, and she kept going on "like in the Belfast case".

Sure enough these guys are total twats (let's be honest about it, they're professional sportspeople...except for the odd case, being insufferable pr1cks kinda comes with the profile), but they don't deserve to keep being inferred as to be "rapists who got away with it"...

iptba

Priests denied full Catholic funeral if they die while facing sexual abuse allegations

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/priests-denied-full-catholic-funeral-if-they-die-while-facing-sexual-abuse-allegations-887819.html

H3llR4iser

iptba wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/priests-denied-full-catholic-funeral-if-they-die-while-facing-sexual-abuse-allegations-887819.html

How very Italian of them...pretending "we don't know this guy!", basically...

Also, feel like this is one of these "no-win" scenarios...keep in mind, there's very little I despise more than priests/the curch, so I *might* be a *tiny bit* biased here

Lux23

GreeBo wrote: »

Rape and False accusations should carry the same penalties.

You've obviously never been raped.

ELM327

Lux23 wrote: »

You've obviously never been raped.

You've obviously never had your life destroyed by a false accusation


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5837985/forklift-driver-took-own-life-false-rape-accusation/

Pelvis

ELM327 wrote: »

You've obviously never had your life destroyed by a false accusation


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5837985/forklift-driver-took-own-life-false-rape-accusation/

Which would your prefer?

manonboard

Pelvis wrote: »

Which would your prefer?

Although your question was not directed to me, It peaked my interest and i had a think about it.

I decided if one of these awful things would happen to me.

I would rather be raped assuming there was not torture/grievous body harm caused on top of it.

I could heal from that i think.

If i was falsely accused, I would spend lots of time in jail if found guilty.. or at the least, I would be incredibly socially isolated and shamed. I knew someone who was accused, and his life fell apart.. Lots his job, his friends, had to move.
The case fell apart well enough as the girls story changed and evidence in text messages proved otherwise (she deleted them and clearly didnt know how technology works).

Obviously this is hypothetical, i've never been raped, nor falsely accused/fond guilty.

Pelvis

manonboard wrote: »

I would rather be raped assuming there was not torture/grievous body harm caused on top of it.

You don't think rape is a form of torture/GBH?

ELM327

Pelvis wrote: »

Which would your prefer?

Neither. Can't we just not be raped and not lie?

One eyed Jack

Lux23 wrote: »

You've obviously never been raped.

I genuinely don’t see how that’s relevant to the point GreeBo was making. You could just have pointed out that they’re two unrelated and completely separate offences, without suggesting that one needs to have experience of being raped to have an opinion on changing Irish legislation to make the sentences for both criminal offences the same.

I don’t agree with what GreeBo is suggesting, but I don’t have to have been raped to make that point, nor do I have to have been falsely accused to suggest that the potential outcomes of either experience aren’t even in the same ball park.

Eric Cartman

Lux23 wrote: »

You've obviously never been raped.

I don't doubt for one second that being raped stays with somebody forever, but so does being falsely accused, both include an increased risk of suicide and depression and would cause you to trust the opposite gender less.

But being a rape victim usually isn't reported with your name, spread around, won't lose you a job, won't (hopefully) make your partner leave, won't get you beaten up outside your local pub for no reason, won't be brought up every single day by everyone who's heard about it, won't have your family disown you.

lawred2

jennyhayes123 wrote: »

I know 2 girls that have done this. Bitches should be locked up. Nasty nasty evil thing to do

And you reported them?

Sir Oxman

Lux23 wrote: »

You've obviously never been raped.

How ****ing crude.
Vice versa, is that it?
Cop on.

Sir Oxman

Pelvis wrote: »

Which would your prefer?

Neither
how's them apples?

Eric Cartman

https://www.reddit.com/r/pussypassdenied/comments/a1ihks/woman_asks_guys_to_delete_their_sex_videos_he/?st=JP36QNY2&sh=4d1c6dbe

Saw this today, horrific if true

iptba

Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding legal costs application dismissed by judge

- Application made on behalf of rugby players Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding to recover legal costs dismissed in court today
- Trial judge said she had taken into account the 'special facts and circumstances' of the case

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/paddy-jackson-and-stuart-olding-legal-costs-application-dismissed-by-judge-37627077.html

I know basically nothing about the law. I see some people on Twitter saying that normally if you are found not guilty you would get your costs back. It may not be an absolute principle but it seems to be the default.

johnnyskeleton

iptba wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/paddy-jackson-and-stuart-olding-legal-costs-application-dismissed-by-judge-37627077.html

I know basically nothing about the law. I see some people on Twitter saying that normally if you are found not guilty you would get your costs back. It may not be an absolute principle but it seems to be the default.

Here it would be very rare to get your costs against the DPP and the test seems to be the same in Northern Ireland. Basically, if the case shouldnt have been prosecuted or there was some other exceptional factor, costs can be awarded. But the fact of an acquittal does not mean costs would normally follow.

Defunkd

A meme doing the rounds on 9gag is about Brian Banks who was accused of raping a classmate in school. Was looking at 41 years to life if convicted but took a plea deal which would see him get probation and no prison time. He got sentenced to 6 years and served them while the rape victim sued the school for $1.5M.
In 2011, the victim contacted Banks through FB, met with him and admitted she fabricated the story. Banks secretly recorded the conversation but it was deemed inadmissable as evidence by the Court, since the rape victim didn't consent to being recorded and she didn't sign a confession.
Banks was eventually cleared of all charges and the school has countersued the rape 'victim' Wanetta Gibson, who has unsurprisingly disappeared along with the money.



Another one i spotted recently: UK woman gets jailed for false rape claims
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/24/woman-falsely-accused-15-men-rape-sexual-assault-jailed-ten/amp/

ittakestwo

Defunkd wrote: »

A meme doing the rounds on 9gag is about Brian Banks who was accused of raping a classmate in school. Was looking at 41 years to life if convicted but took a plea deal which would see him get probation and no prison time. He got sentenced to 6 years and served them while the rape victim sued the school for $1.5M.
In 2011, the victim contacted Banks through FB, met with him and admitted she fabricated the story. Banks secretly recorded the conversation but it was deemed inadmissable as evidence by the Court, since the rape victim didn't consent to being recorded and she didn't sign a confession.
Banks was eventually cleared of all charges and the school has countersued the rape 'victim' Wanetta Gibson, who has unsurprisingly disappeared along with the money.



Another one i spotted recently: UK woman gets jailed for false rape claims
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/24/woman-falsely-accused-15-men-rape-sexual-assault-jailed-ten/amp/

Dont think anybody doubts that false accusation occur. But look at the ratio of the number convicted rapist to the number of people charged with a false accusation to give you an idea of how common it is.

Defunkd

ittakestwo wrote: »

Dont think anybody doubts that false accusation occur. But look at the ratio of the number convicted rapist to the number of people charged with a false accusation to give you an idea of how common it is.

What is the ratio?



The woman in the first case is only being sued by the school. No criminal charges for giving false statements, wasting police time, perjury, etc.

ittakestwo

Defunkd wrote: »

What is the ratio?



The woman in the first case is only being sued by the school. No criminal charges for giving false statements, wasting police time, perjury, etc.

Have no idea what the ratio is.

For what it's worth I would guess the amount accusations of rape reported to the garda that are false would probably be less than 10%...... what would you think it would be?

By the fact the two case you linked to are not even in this country probably indicates the amount of people being charged for a false rape accusation as being tiny here as presumably you would have linked case closer to home.

Actually has there even been a conviction of a false rape accusation in Ireland?

Defunkd

ittakestwo wrote: »

Have no idea what the ratio is.

For what it's worth I...

It isn't worth much, to speak about something if you have no idea what you're speaking about.