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Is the end of the road for landlords coming ?

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    #272
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Mod note

    This forum is for discussion of accommodation and property issues. There is an investment and trading forum to discuss stocks and shares.


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    #273
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,309 ✭✭✭markpb


    DrPhilG wrote:
    At least with property, certainly if you're buying now, you will always have the value in the property itself as it is unlikely to reduce very much in value.

    This is a risky thing to believe in. House prices collapsed in Ireland only a few years ago and there are still plenty of people in negative equity from that.


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    #274
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    bricks and mortar feel a lot less risky (and of course less potentially rewarding) than stocks.

    Its entirely plausible that rent control (albeit on a temporary 3 year trial basis) alongside defacto indefinite leases- may knock a significant chunk off the value of any let residential property- versus any unit not with these strictures associated with it.

    Alongside government meddling- supply is increasing rapidly- something that few people seem to realise.

    We are not in an equilibrium position- but we are certainly less unbalanced than we were even 12 month ago- and supply side concerns are being addressed (perhaps not to everyone's liking, but they are being addressed nonetheless).

    It is dangerous to assume you're onto a safe bet with property- or any other asset type- or indeed to try and predict where property will go- versus anything else. The world is a hell of a lot riskier in 2017 than it was only 12 months ago- the propensity for another property price collapse is arguably as strong as continued capital increases in property.

    Even if you were a seasoned gambler- the current scenario couldn't be considered anything but risky.


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    #275
    76544567
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭76544567


    Im not sure im finished processing the shock at this info, but i'll post it here for now.
    Mods feel free to move it somewhere else, but I came across something very disturbing yesterday and havent even thought through all of the implications of it.

    I was out playing golf yesterday morning. This 4% rent legislation came up during the round. One of the guys works with one of our ministers in govt and he told us that everyone in the Dail knew about this months before it was announced. He has a rental property himself and was able to review his rent give notice and have it actioned all before it was announced, as were some of his friends who he told, so now he is at the max market rate where he wasnt before.
    He mentioned that he did indeed do it because he thought the value of his property would be effected should he get stuck on a rent below market rate and that he had not raised his rent to market rates in about 3 years.
    And the worst thing was that he said there were a lot of people (including opposition) who had time to do it, and did this, including politicians and other employees.

    Thats like insider dealing. And is just not right. Id there any way to get FOI on who suddenly raised their rents to market value after this became common knowledge in government buildings but not to the wider public, who had no such change to regularise their affairs.

    This could be huge if a journalist who knew how to investigate and get definitive proof was to take hold of it.

    But at the end of it all it does not surprise me.


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    #276
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    What you're saying is complete hearsay- it may very well be true, but its just as likely it was someone mouthing off to show bravado........

    Even if people knew about it months in advance- they were still bound by the 2 year restriction on rent reviews brought in by Minister Coveney's predecessor.

    Seeing how the Minister himself is mouthing off on Twitter though- anything is possible.

    Yes- it would be nice if it were investigated- I wouldn't necessarily believe it to be true though- if you look at the bigger picture, its just as likely that it was someone blowing hot air.


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    #277
    76544567
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭76544567


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    What you're saying is complete hearsay- it may very well be true, but its just as likely it was someone mouthing off to show bravado........

    Even if people knew about it months in advance- they were still bound by the 2 year restriction on rent reviews brought in by Minister Coveney's predecessor.

    Seeing how the Minister himself is mouthing off on Twitter though- anything is possible.

    Yes- it would be nice if it were investigated- I wouldn't necessarily believe it to be true though- if you look at the bigger picture, its just as likely that it was someone blowing hot air.

    It is hearsay. I know the guy well and I believe it.
    But thats why I said I would love to see someone who know how to investigate get on the case and follow through.
    I remember that there were a few rumours of something like this coming in back in September, but we all dismissed them as so outrageous that they were false. It turns out that they were actually quite close to what happened, so my guess is that that was that info filtering out by accident to the general public, but getting dismissed.

    People, such as the person who told me, who had not reviewed the rent for two years, and there where a huge amount of them, could have easily had time to act in that timeframe. However the rest of us could not.

    I do hope an investigative journalist is on to this.
    Im sure they are already as they are usually ahead of the curve on such news.
    I wonder what would happen if it did come out fact checked and all.


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    #278
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    There always is 'The Phoenix' if you want to drop them a tip.
    They're about the only outfit who'll investigate stories these days.


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    #279
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    76544567 wrote: »
    I was out playing golf yesterday morning. This 4% rent legislation came up during the round. One of the guys works with one of our ministers in govt and he told us that everyone in the Dail knew about this months before it was announced.
    That doesn't sound very plausible to me.
    A lot of the reporting at the time commented in particular about the secrecy surrounding this measure, with Leo Varadkar in particular complaining that he wasn't consulted.

    Obviously some Ministers and officials must have known in advance, but the idea that this was known to 'everyone in the Dail' and they knew it 'months' before the announcement seems fanciful.
    Irish Times wrote:
    His officials, as well as staff from the Department of the Taoiseach, were involved in drafting the scheme, but it was not until Monday that Coveney briefed the Cabinet sub-committee in detail, such was the fear of leaks.
    Irish Times wrote:
    He also objected, as Minister for Social Protection overseeing a department
    that pays €480 million in rent, that he was not consulted.


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    #280
    76544567
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭76544567


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    There always is 'The Phoenix' if you want to drop them a tip.
    They're about the only outfit who'll investigate stories these days.

    Nah. Not my thing.
    I was a whistleblower in the past and it never turns out well for the whistleblower.
    I dont want to be involved, especially since the person who told me could be in trouble.
    Maybe investigators will read about it here and investigate.
    Maybe i'll email the posts in this thread to a certain minister for the craic and see what he says :)


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    #281
    76544567
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭76544567


    Phoebas wrote: »
    That doesn't sound very plausible to me.
    A lot of the reporting at the time commented in particular about the secrecy surrounding this measure, with Leo Varadkar in particular complaining that he wasn't consulted.

    Obviously some Ministers and officials must have known in advance, but the idea that this was known to 'everyone in the Dail' and they knew it 'months' before the announcement seems fanciful.

    Not really. They knew something was coming and it would be so bad that they would have little time to react so they reacted in advance of the full story coming out. Thats enough of an insider job.
    I believe it was more than that though.
    And if you ever knew a politician personally you would know that they always have their canned outrage for when its need for the press. Even if they are not outraged. Its all smoke and mirrors. What they say about how they feel and what they do are totally different things.


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    #282
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    76544567 wrote: »
    And if you ever knew a politician personally you would know that they always have their canned outrage for when its need for the press. Even if they are not outraged. Its all smoke and mirrors. What they say about how they feel and what they do are totally different things.

    That sounds like a continuation of the chat you had with your mate on the golf course tbh.


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    #283
    76544567
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭76544567


    Phoebas wrote: »
    That sounds like a continuation of the chat you had with your mate on the golf course tbh.

    Domt believe it if you dont want to.
    No skin off my nose.

    The simple fact of the matter is that if somebody could find out if several people from the dail made moves to get their rental properties closer to market rate in the few months before this legislation was announced, it will tell us a story worth pursuing.


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    #284
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Mod note

    Gossip has no place on this forum. Enough.


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    #285
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,330 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    markpb wrote: »
    This is a risky thing to believe in. House prices collapsed in Ireland only a few years ago and there are still plenty of people in negative equity from that.

    As I said, I'm talking about the current market in my area. I have bought in the previous boom, and in the post recession slump. House prices in the rental area I'm talking about are still very cheap. Could they go lower? Sure. But they're not that far from the bottom they previously hit so I don't think they will drop too far even if another recession comes.

    The_Conductor wrote: »
    It is dangerous to assume you're onto a safe bet with property

    I'm not assuming that. I just think that it is SAFER than stocks and in the long term (this is retirement planning) it is the best option for my €50k.

    I will (if it still exists) have the state pension, and my workplace pension but those won't arrive til near 70. Having 2 or even 3 rental incomes will top up those pensions, and maybe even allow me to retire a bit early and live off rental income and savings until the pensions arrive.


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    #286
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,793 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    The thing to watch out for is that you aren't investing 50k, you are investing 100k. 50k just happens to be the bank's money, but the bank has first call on the asset, and the risk is entirely yours. This is 'leverage'.

    The 50k which you put in the stock market is also leveraged of course. The company you invest in is going to borrow money, and the bank lending the money is going to have the first call on the company's assets.

    It is important to understand the effect of leverage whichever way you do it.

    A lot of it is what you are familiar with. If you know a lot about houses in the west of Ireland and not a lot about stocks, it is likely to make sense to buy a house.


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    #287
    b4bmm
    Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭b4bmm


    If you cant beat them, join them.
    Why not set up a charity yourself then for investing in property?

    Do the rules differ much regarding taxes, USC etc for non-residents as opposed to residents?


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    #288
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    ...With the right vetting and checks you reduce your chances of a problem tenant greatly ...

    I have no idea what that means.

    A professional scammer has years experience of faking all this stuff. The LL will have couple weeks doing back ground check probably a few days.

    You do your checks the best you can. Then you have insurance, and money in place in case it goes bad. Know how the law works, and don't take it personally.


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    #289
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    beauf wrote: »
    I have no idea what that means.

    A professional scammer has years experience of faking all this stuff. The LL will have couple weeks doing back ground check probably a few days.

    You do your checks the best you can. Then you have insurance, and money in place in case it goes bad. Know how the law works, and don't take it personally.


    Insurance covers nothing with regards to a tenant.if a tenant doesnt pay hard luck for landlord. If the destroys the house. .. je or she has a right to be in the house nothing can be done... Basically the landlord pays. PRTB are useless .. work for the tenants.


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    #290
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    A lot of it is what you are familiar with. If you know a lot about houses in the west of Ireland and not a lot about stocks, it is likely to make sense to buy a house.

    Buying a house in the West is far more risky than buying an index fund in the S&P500 that is highly diversified and relatively low risk. You are buying a stake in the largest and generally most stable firms in the world. The odd one might go bankrupt, but the other 499 ones will still exist

    You can not beat the market, so be the market and buy an index fund

    The risk of buying a single house is just too great and people can't see/figure out how to quantify that


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    #291
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    handlemaster wrote: »
    Insurance covers nothing with regards to a tenant...

    House insurance doesn't. Landlord insurance does.

    Have you researched it.


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    #292
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    beauf wrote: »
    House insurance doesn't. Landlord insurance does.

    Have you researched it.

    Yes. All it covers is the usual fire , theft (not by tenants or guests). Not much really in the line of tenants. Unless you have discovered different policy on the market Id like to hear of it. What company and whats the policy called ?


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    #293
    April 73
    Registered Users Posts: 846 ✭✭✭April 73


    handlemaster wrote: »
    Yes. All it covers is the usual fire , theft (not by tenants or guests). Not much really in the line of tenants. Unless you have discovered different policy on the market Id like to hear of it. What company and whats the policy called ?

    http://www.ukandirelandinsurance.com/Rent_Guarantee_Insurance.html

    I haven't investigated this but it was mentioned here the other day.


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    #294
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    A few do it.

    https://www.123.ie/home-insurance/landlord-insurance

    Search for loss of rent insurance. Seems to find it.


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    #295
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    beauf wrote: »
    A few do it.

    https://www.123.ie/home-insurance/landlord-insurance

    Search for loss of rent insurance. Seems to find it.

    Loss of rent insurance is the consequential loss arising from one of the insured risks. If there is a fire or flood, for example, and the property is uninhabitable for a period the landlord can claim for the rent that would have been paid during that period. It does not insure a landlord for default in payment by the tenant.


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    #296
    Baby01032012
    Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭Baby01032012


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Loss of rent insurance is the consequential loss arising from one of the insured risks. If there is a fire or flood, for example, and the property is uninhabitable for a period the landlord can claim for the rent that would have been paid during that period. It does not insure a landlord for default in payment by the tenant.

    There is a company I know of that provides specific insurance against non payment of rent. This is separate from your general insurance policies on tenanted properties.


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    #297
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    Baby01032012 wrote: »
    There is a company I know of that provides specific insurance against non payment of rent. This is separate from your general insurance policies on tenanted properties.

    Link please to an Irish company that provides that because I'm 99% sure it doesn't exist


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    #298
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    beauf wrote: »
    A few do it.

    https://www.123.ie/home-insurance/landlord-insurance

    Search for loss of rent insurance. Seems to find it.

    Thats not to do with the tenant. Only if an insurable incident happens the ins co pays the rent for maybe 12 months. Does pay if tenant destroys the place or refuses to pay. Basically its noreal insurance


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    #299
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Barely Hedged wrote: »
    Link please to an Irish company that provides that because I'm 99% sure it doesn't exist


    It doesnt exist in ireland. The poster is wrong.


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    #300
    76544567
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭76544567


    What's needed is a tenant default policy that tenants pay in full prior to moving in.
    And should they stopmpayimg this they must move out immediately.
    Never happen in Ireland though.


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    #301
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    76544567 wrote: »
    What's needed is a tenant default policy that tenants pay in full prior to moving in.
    And should they stopmpayimg this they must move out immediately.
    Never happen in Ireland though.
    Policy should be fully paid up front for the lenght of time the tenant can legally stay in the property.


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