Free Will or God's Plan

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

Indeed. But, in our hypothetical Nick didn't go to the team hotel, etc, so the outcome of the game was determined by the choices the players made, just as it would have been if Nick had not gone back in time at all.

So, can we postulate an all-knowing God who doesn't go to the team hotel, so to speak? Clearly, we can. We can postulate a God who knows what the outcome of your free choice will be, but who does not act so as to eliminate your freedom in order to secure a different outcome. He doesn't know the outcome because he is extremely good at predicting things, or because he knows you so intimately that he can predict your every choice (though both of these things may be true). He knows the outcome of your choice for the simpler reason that, from his perspective, it is already happening, and has already happened. He doesn't predict the outcome at all; he simply observes it.

That's predetermination and means that you have only one path to follow. You can not deviate. Where's the choice there is you MUST follow the path laid out.
The choice is an illusion as the decision is already made

Absolam

Absolam wrote: »

If he had changed things, then they would have been as he remembered them though, wouldn't they? That's a time travel paradox; nothing to do with free will or God's plan.


He'll take the shot as God knows he will. Won't he? And if he shoots left, God will know (and always will have known) that he would shoot left. Just as if he had shot right.

So God knows the outcome before the decision is made?

Absolam

Absolam wrote: »

How do you know that? How exactly does his knowing what you're going to do affect what you're going to do?

Because it means that I can not deviate from his plan

Absolam

Deleted User wrote: »

So God knows the outcome before the decision is made?

Yes, if He's God, though given that He is God, 'before' becomes a subjective term.

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it means that I can not deviate from his plan

How do you know? If you cannot deviate from his plan, how does it affect what you're going to do; you don't know the plan, do you?

Professor Moriarty

Not that I believe in him, her or them, but it seems to me that this argument requires that the nature of 'God' be clearly defined. Specifically, does 'God' intervene in his predetermined plan or is he a passive observer of his own creation?

Either way, 'God' removes free will. If he intervenes then free will does not exist. If he is a passive observer then, as 'God', he has already determined the path by which the person chooses to go by creating the person's biology, culture, society, history, religion and all the other factors that influence a person's psychology. 'God' has also created and predetermined the pre-existing circumstances in which a person makes a decision.

Thus, 'God' has created the person's brain and body including their development, he has created the person's unique life experience which, in tandem with the person's unique brain, has created a unique psychological process and he has created the unique circumstances in which a person makes a decision. Therefore, nothing has been created by the person, or exists within or around the person, that permits free will.

Absolam

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Not that I believe in him, her or them, but it seems to me that this argument requires that the nature of 'God' be clearly defined. Specifically, does 'God' intervene in his predetermined plan or is he a passive observer of his own creation?

I'm not sure it does; for starters the notion of a predetermined plan isn't part of the op, just a Plan. Predetermination would be leaning towards confining God to our own perspective on time, which is something which has already been shown to be a fundamental error.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Either way, 'God' removes free will. If he intervenes then free will does not exist. If he is a passive observer then, as 'God', he has already determined the path by which the person chooses to go by creating the person's biology, culture, society, history, religion and all the other factors that influence a person's psychology. 'God' has also created and predetermined the pre-existing circumstances in which a person makes a decision.

Well no; God being God obviously created/is creating/will create everything, which makes Him neither a passive observer or interventionist. He creates free will just as he creates the circumstances it is exercised in, and knows what results.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Thus, 'God' has created the person's brain and body including their development, he has created the person's unique life experience which, in tandem with the person's unique brain, has created a unique psychological process and he has created the unique circumstances in which a person makes a decision. Therefore, nothing has been created by the person, or exists within or around the person, that permits free will.

Why stop there? Why not take the next step and say in addition to all this He has created free will... which a person exercises as they choose. If He can create all you say, free will doesn't seem much extra, does it? And for someone who is omnipotent as well as omniscient, it's nothing extra at all...

Nick Park

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Either way, 'God' removes free will. If he intervenes then free will does not exist.

Ah, so if you ask me to lend you a fiver, and I accede to your request, then I've removed your free will?

Nick Park

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it means that I can not deviate from his plan

No, it means you cannot deviate from your plan (since any 'deviation' is your choice and, therefore, still your plan).

Nick Park

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If he is a passive observer then, as 'God', he has already determined the path by which the person chooses to go by creating the person's biology, culture, society, history, religion and all the other factors that influence a person's psychology. 'God' has also created and predetermined the pre-existing circumstances in which a person makes a decision.

Thus, 'God' has created the person's brain and body including their development, he has created the person's unique life experience which, in tandem with the person's unique brain, has created a unique psychological process and he has created the unique circumstances in which a person makes a decision. Therefore, nothing has been created by the person, or exists within or around the person, that permits free will.

What you're really arguing here is a determinist view which, quite apart from whether you believe in God, sees our 'choices' as being predetermined by external factors. As I understand it, Quantum Mechanics indicates that such deterministic notions are pretty unsustainable. Maybe God does play dice with the universe after all.

Absolam

Absolam wrote: »

Yes, if He's God, though given that He is God, 'before' becomes a subjective term.
How do you know? If you cannot deviate from his plan, how does it affect what you're going to do; you don't know the plan, do you?

Exactly. I think that I have a choice but I really don't as a higher power decides the plan.

So God is all knowing, and I have an illusion of free will

Nick Park

Nick Park wrote: »

No, it means you cannot deviate from your plan (since any 'deviation' is your choice and, therefore, still your plan).

Either I make a decision and God's plan must change or I must make the decision to match God's plan.

So either God doesn't know what I am about to do, in which case not all knowing, or he does know before I do, in which case my appearance of choice is an illusion.

Simples

Nick Park

Nick Park wrote: »

What you're really arguing here is a determinist view which, quite apart from whether you believe in God, sees our 'choices' as being predetermined by external factors. As I understand it, Quantum Mechanics indicates that such deterministic notions are pretty unsustainable. Maybe God does play dice with the universe after all.

And that's it, he either knows what will happen (illusion of free will as we MUST stick to his plan) or he does NOT know (his plan changes constantly based on the exercising of free will)

Professor Moriarty

Nick Park wrote: »

Ah, so if you ask me to lend you a fiver, and I accede to your request, then I've removed your free will?

I didn't have it in the first place. Nor did you. (free will, that is, not the fiver). If 'God' created everything - you, me, our lives and our circumstances - then there is no possibility of free will. He/you can't just then add in something nebulous called 'free will' if it has no purpose or influence.

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I didn't have it in the first place. Nor did you. (free will, that is, not the fiver). If 'God' created everything - you, me, our lives and our circumstances - then there is no possibility of free will. He/you can't just then add in something nebulous called 'free will' if it has no purpose or influence.

And if he does then any pre-set plan gies out the window the moment a decision goes contrary to the master plan

Professor Moriarty

Absolam wrote: »

I'm not sure it does; for starters the notion of a predetermined plan isn't part of the op, just a Plan. Predetermination would be leaning towards confining God to our own perspective on time, which is something which has already been shown to be a fundamental error.
Well no; God being God obviously created/is creating/will create everything, which makes Him neither a passive observer or interventionist. He creates free will just as he creates the circumstances it is exercised in, and knows what results. Why stop there? Why not take the next step and say in addition to all this He has created free will... which a person exercises as they choose. If He can create all you say, free will doesn't seem much extra, does it? And for someone who is omnipotent as well as omniscient, it's nothing extra at all...

'God' created time and the physics of time which we don't really understand so I'm not sure what that adds to the concept of 'free will'. Either way, If he created everything from the moment of the universe's inception to the end of 'time', then he has predetermined destiny thus removing free will. If everything about me and my world, past present and future has already been decided by a 'God' then I have no choice in what happens and therefore I have no free will.

Nick Park

Deleted User wrote: »

Either I make a decision and God's plan must change or I must make the decision to match God's plan.

So either God doesn't know what I am about to do, in which case not all knowing, or he does know before I do, in which case my appearance of choice is an illusion.

Simples

No, not at all.

God knows what you are about to do because you choose to do it. Think back to our Theo Walcott illustration again. Providing there is no interference from me affecting Theo's decision, then it makes no difference whether I am looking back to Theo's goal or, due to my wonderful time machine, looking forward to it. In each case my knowledge is the effect and Theo's actions are the cause, not vice versa.

Your problem is that you persist in talking about God as if He were subject to the same limitations of time and space as you are (an old fashioned Newtonian view that sees time as a straight line rather than as a three dimensional space/time loaf). This means that you are not actually addressing the Christian conception of God at all - so your argument is singularly unconvincing in this forum.

Try to look beyond your own limitations and imagine an Eternal being who is not subject to time. I would also recommend reading some Brian Greene. I found his 'Fabric of the Cosmos' very useful in learning to think of time in ways that take account of relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory.

Nick Park

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

'God' created time and the physics of time which we don't really understand so I'm not sure what that adds to the concept of 'free will'. Either way, If he created everything from the moment of the universe's inception to the end of 'time', then he has predetermined destiny thus removing free will. If everything about me and my world, past present and future has already been decided by a 'God' then I have no choice in what happens and therefore I have no free will.

But you are assuming that God cannot create a universe with any genuine randomness. Therefore the god you are positing is not the God of Christianity.

I'm wondering what the value is of coming onto the Christianity Forum and posting arguments that basically consist of "A god (but not the omnipotent eternal Christian that Christians believe in) cannot do so-and-so."

Professor Moriarty

Nick Park wrote: »

But you are assuming that God cannot create a universe with any genuine randomness. Therefore the god you are positing is not the God of Christianity.

I'm wondering what the value is of coming onto the Christianity Forum and posting arguments that basically consist of "A god (but not the omnipotent eternal Christian that Christians believe in) cannot do so-and-so."

Oh right. I didn't spot that it was the Christianity forum. I was just working on the basis of a possible higher being. I couldn't be bothered going down the dogma route to be honest.

Nick Park

Nick Park wrote: »

No, not at all.

God knows what you are about to do because you choose to do it. Think back to our Theo Walcott illustration again. Providing there is no interference from me affecting Theo's decision, then it makes no difference whether I am looking back to Theo's goal or, due to my wonderful time machine, looking forward to it. In each case my knowledge is the effect and Theo's actions are the cause, not vice versa.

Your problem is that you persist in talking about God as if He were subject to the same limitations of time and space as you are (an old fashioned Newtonian view that sees time as a straight line rather than as a three dimensional space/time loaf). This means that you are not actually addressing the Christian conception of God at all - so your argument is singularly unconvincing in this forum.

Try to look beyond your own limitations and imagine an Eternal being who is not subject to time. I would also recommend reading some Brian Greene. I found his 'Fabric of the Cosmos' very useful in learning to think of time in ways that take account of relativity, quantum mechanics and string theory.

So God's plan changes all the time so?
If my choice is mine then how does this correlate with his knowing the future until the end of time?

So you are saying that I can make a plan which runs contrary to the set future, which God sees?

tommy2bad

Deleted User wrote: »

Cause and effect is not applicable to past actions.

And the question is
Does God know what you are going to decide tomorrow?

If he does and you can not make any other decision, then there is no free will there.
If he does not know what you will decide then he can not be all knowing

Again your mistake is assuming God inhabits the same timeframe as you and me.
If God exists outside of time then all time, past present and future is now to Him. He doesn't know what will happen, there is no 'will happen' for Him, it's all happened already. Perhaps all eventualities have happened from Gods point of view? I painted the wall blue and green and red and used all the colours to put graffiti on the wall, it's possible God has knowledge of all the possible outcomes but this 'me' is stuck with a blue wall and now have to paint it again because it looks terrible!

solodeogloria

Deleted User wrote: »

If we have free will then how can God be all knowing?

Or

If God is all knowing how can we have anything but the illusion of free will?

Good evening OP!

Dare I suggest an uncomfortable answer? Both are true.

God is sovereign over all things and we are responsible for our actions. The main reason I believe this as a Christian is from Romans 9 - 11 where Paul explains that God chooses His people through election in chapter 9 and that they were responsible for their rejection in chapter 10 and that he doesn't know how these two things are working together in full in chapter 11.

An unsatisfying answer perhaps but the Bible says both are true and we don't know exactly how.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

lazybones32

Deleted User wrote: »

He knows exact lay what I'm going to do, no matter what?

Then my choice is an illusion as the path is already laid out

Yes, He knew even before creation what you would do every moment of your existence. I can't understand why you have come to the conclusion that foreknowledge is the same as coercion or forcing someone to do something: are you choosing to read this or are you reading it because God forced or predetermined you to?

You are right in one respect - there is a path laid out for you that He wants you to follow. He won't force you to seek it or follow it but He will continuously seek you out and try and draw you to it.

Nick Park

Deleted User wrote: »

So God's plan changes all the time so?
If my choice is mine then how does this correlate with his knowing the future until the end of time?

His plan takes into account the choices that you freely choose to make. It's not that difficult a concept to grasp.

So you are saying that I can make a plan which runs contrary to the set future, which God sees?

No, I am saying that once you've made a choice and acted upon it, then you can't undo it.

This is because you, unlike God, are firmly stuck in a timeline where you have a past, a present and a future. And, unless you learn how to travel faster than the speed of light, that's not likely to change.

Absolam

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly. I think that I have a choice but I really don't as a higher power decides the plan. So God is all knowing, and I have an illusion of free will

What makes you think you don't have a choice? The plan doesn't necessarily dictate the choice, does it? And on what basis do you believe your free will is an illusion? If you freely make a choice, the fact that God knows you made/are making/will make that choice doesn't make it illusory, so what do you think does?

Deleted User wrote: »

So God's plan changes all the time so?
If my choice is mine then how does this correlate with his knowing the future until the end of time? So you are saying that I can make a plan which runs contrary to the set future, which God sees?

No, the Plan remains the same; it was/is/will be that the free choices you make are part of it. That God knows the choices you will make doesn't change the fact that you make them. You imagine God sees a set future, but it's not a set future. God just knows what it is.

Peregrinus

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Oh right. I didn't spot that it was the Christianity forum. I was just working on the basis of a possible higher being. I couldn't be bothered going down the dogma route to be honest.

On the contrary, you are yourself going down the dogma route by assuming or asserting without argument or evidence that God as postulated by Christianity is not a "possible higher being".

Absolam

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

'God' created time and the physics of time which we don't really understand so I'm not sure what that adds to the concept of 'free will'.

Well, it's not supposed to add anything to the concept of free will, I'm just saying that if he created all these things then creating free will as well isn't really a stretch.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Either way, If he created everything from the moment of the universe's inception to the end of 'time', then he has predetermined destiny thus removing free will. If everything about me and my world, past present and future has already been decided by a 'God' then I have no choice in what happens and therefore I have no free will.

That's not true though; you're assuming he has predetermined destiny thus removing free will, and as I said predestination isn't part of the op, only Gods Plan. That everything you have done or will do is according to Gods Plan doesn't mean you don't choose to do it, only that your free choice to do so was and will be part of that Plan. Not exactly a tricky proposition for an omnipotent omniscient entity (in fact pretty much part of the definition of an omnipotent omniscient entity), though obviously problematic for an entity such as ourselves whose awareness is rather more limited.

Professor Moriarty

Peregrinus wrote: »

On the contrary, you are yourself going down the dogma route by assuming or asserting without argument or evidence that God as postulated by Christianity is not a "possible higher being".

Eh, no. I never suggested that.

Professor Moriarty

Absolam wrote: »

Well, it's not supposed to add anything to the concept of free will, I'm just saying that if he created all these things then creating free will as well isn't really a stretch.

That's not true though; you're assuming he has predetermined destiny thus removing free will, and as I said predestination isn't part of the op, only Gods Plan. That everything you have done or will do is according to Gods Plan doesn't mean you don't choose to do it, only that your free choice to do so was and will be part of that Plan. Not exactly a tricky proposition for an omnipotent omniscient entity (in fact pretty much part of the definition of an omnipotent omniscient entity), though obviously problematic for an entity such as ourselves whose awareness is rather more limited.

I simply can't get my head around this paradox. In what way does an omnipotent 'God's' plan differ from predetermination if he has created me and my circumstances? If my 'free choice' is part of that plan then it has been created by 'God'. Thus me, my circumstances and my free will have been created by 'God'. If all of those things have been created by 'God' then he has control over them. I'm not being obtuse, but the creator of all things predetermines all things - including free will. I can't see where free will offers choice when me and my circumstances are all created for me. There is no place for free will to exist.

solodeogloria

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I simply can't get my head around this paradox. In what way does an omnipotent 'God's' plan differ from predetermination if he has created me and my circumstances? If my 'free choice' is part of that plan then it has been created by 'God'. Thus me, my circumstances and my free will have been created by 'God'. If all of those things have been created by 'God' then he has control over them. I'm not being obtuse, but the creator of all things predetermines all things - including free will. I can't see where free will offers choice when me and my circumstances are all created for me. There is no place for free will to exist.

Good afternoon!

What makes you think we could understand everything about an omniscient, omnipotent God anyway?

I hold to a strong view of predestination as it's used in the Bible. I also hold that human beings are responsible for their actions because that's also taught in the Bible.

As for how these two hang together logically. I've got no clue. What I do know is that God has declared both in His Word and that He knows.

The idea that we can know everything fully and understand everything clearly is an idea that I've swiftly abandoned as I've got older. That's particularly true in the God department.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Nick Park

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I simply can't get my head around this paradox. In what way does an omnipotent 'God's' plan differ from predetermination if he has created me and my circumstances? If my 'free choice' is part of that plan then it has been created by 'God'. Thus me, my circumstances and my free will have been created by 'God'. If all of those things have been created by 'God' then he has control over them. I'm not being obtuse, but the creator of all things predetermines all things - including free will. I can't see where free will offers choice when me and my circumstances are all created for me. There is no place for free will to exist.

Creation does not logically entail control.

Think of it this way. You get a couple of bits of wood and you 'create' two dice. These dice are your creation, and you can set them in motion by tossing the dice onto a crap table. But you don't get to decide what numbers will come up on the dice. So you have demonstrated that creation does not logically entail control.

Now, it's perfectly true that free will and the unpredictability of a dice throw are not exactly the same - no one's arguing that they are - but we've established that creation can be done without 'fixing' or controlling the outcomes.

It is certainly not logically contradictory for an omnipotent being to create entities and give them a genuine free will to choose. Nor, is there any contradiction when that omnipotent being sees the choices being made by these entities. The only possible contradiction or paradox here would be if the omnipotent being was limited by time and space and therefore not Eternal - in other words, not truly omnipotent and not the God posited by Christianity.

So what we're left with here is an argument, presented by Cork exile, that some hypothetical deity who is constrained by our concepts of time and space (but not the omnipotent and eternal deity worshipped by Christians) would be unable to create human beings with genuine free will and to also possess foreknowledge of their choices. I'm inclined to agree with Cork exile that his hypothetical limited deity probably can't do any such thing, and that might be an interesting topic of discussion after a couple of bottles of wine, but it has little relevance to Christian belief in an omnipotent and eternal God.

Professor Moriarty

Nick Park wrote: »

Creation does not logically entail control.

Think of it this way. You get a couple of bits of wood and you 'create' two dice. These dice are your creation, and you can set them in motion by tossing the dice onto a crap table. But you don't get to decide what numbers will come up on the dice. So you have demonstrated that creation does not logically entail control.

Now, it's perfectly true that free will and the unpredictability of a dice throw are not exactly the same - no one's arguing that they are - but we've established that creation can be done without 'fixing' or controlling the outcomes.

It is certainly not logically contradictory for an omnipotent being to create entities and give them a genuine free will to choose. Nor, is there any contradiction when that omnipotent being sees the choices being made by these entities. The only possible contradiction or paradox here would be if the omnipotent being was limited by time and space and therefore not Eternal - in other words, not truly omnipotent and not the God posited by Christianity.

So what we're left with here is an argument, presented by Cork exile, that some hypothetical deity who is constrained by our concepts of time and space (but not the omnipotent and eternal deity worshipped by Christians) would be unable to create human beings with genuine free will and to also possess foreknowledge of their choices. I'm inclined to agree with Cork exile that his hypothetical limited deity probably can't do any such thing, and that might be an interesting topic of discussion after a couple of bottles of wine, but it has little relevance to Christian belief in an omnipotent and eternal God.

Ok. Let us remove meaning, motive and purpose from this discussion. Let us accept your premise of a 'God' who exists ad infinitum. At some 'point' in space and time, he creates this planet. He places animals and plants on the planet. He creates the circumstances by which the animals eventually evolve into human beings.

Let us define 'free will' as the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or 'God'. At what point of the evolutionary process did human beings develop free will?

Absolam

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I simply can't get my head around this paradox. In what way does an omnipotent 'God's' plan differ from predetermination if he has created me and my circumstances? If my 'free choice' is part of that plan then it has been created by 'God'. Thus me, my circumstances and my free will have been created by 'God'. If all of those things have been created by 'God' then he has control over them.

Well firstly it's obviously not a paradox; it would be a paradox for you, but from the perspective of an omniscient entity it's not. The fact that God knows what you will do doesn't mean he has decided that you will do it; that's still up to you. He just knows that you did it. Creating the circumstances in which you will exercise your free will doesn't change that you exercise it, even if you feel that effectively those circumstances mean you won't make any other choice (determinism rather than predestination). The choice remains yours nonetheless. God may have set the stage, and know what actions you will take, but it's still your choice to make them.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'm not being obtuse, but the creator of all things predetermines all things - including free will. I can't see where free will offers choice when me and my circumstances are all created for me. There is no place for free will to exist.

There you go again; you're saying there must be predetermination, but again that's not part of the OP. Cork_exile's question is "If we have free will then how can God be all knowing? Or If God is all knowing how can we have anything but the illusion of free will?"
And the answer remains that the fact that God knows everything (is omniscient) doesn't prevent the exercise of free will.

Absolam

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Ok. Let us remove meaning, motive and purpose from this discussion. Let us accept your premise of a 'God' who exists ad infinitum. At some 'point' in space and time, he creates this planet. He places animals and plants on the planet. He creates the circumstances by which the animals eventually evolve into human beings. Let us define 'free will' as the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or 'God'. At what point of the evolutionary process did human beings develop free will?

I think the idea of excluding choices not 'controlled' by fate is a bit disingenuous; all choices are influenced by information available when making a choice. At what point does having sufficient information to make a selection less than random become a choice controlled by fate, to your mid?

Still, to your point, why do you think human beings developed free will? Can it not exist in every thing that is capable of choosing one course over another?

Nick Park

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Ok. Let us remove meaning, motive and purpose from this discussion. Let us accept your premise of a 'God' who exists ad infinitum. At some 'point' in space and time, he creates this planet. He places animals and plants on the planet. He creates the circumstances by which the animals eventually evolve into human beings.

Let us define 'free will' as the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or 'God'. At what point of the evolutionary process did human beings develop free will?

That's a different discussion altogether.

What makes you think free will does not predate humanity? You don't think animals possess free will at all?

Professor Moriarty

Nick Park wrote: »

That's a different discussion altogether.

What makes you think free will does not predate humanity? You don't think animals possess free will at all?

I think it's just another way of looking at free will. The other discussion was becoming circular.

Free will necessarily involves informed decision. Can an amoeba make an informed decision?

Nick Park

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think it's just another way of looking at free will. The other discussion was becoming circular.

Free will necessarily involves informed decision. Can an amoeba make an informed decision?

I think there were a few evolutionary steps in between the amoeba and humans.

Free will doesn't need much informed decision at all. When a wildebeest decides to follow the left fork on a dirt track rather than the right track, is that not a form of free will? I, for one, don't think of God has having planned out every movement and action of every animal that has ever lived.

Professor Moriarty

Nick Park wrote: »

I think there were a few evolutionary steps in between the amoeba and humans.

Free will doesn't need much informed decision at all. When a wildebeest decides to follow the left fork on a dirt track rather than the right track, is that not a form of free will? I, for one, don't think of God has having planned out every movement and action of every animal that has ever lived.

I've met some humans who weren't that far removed.

My point remains, though. Free will involves choice. Choice must involve information and cognition. Therefore can we agree that amoebae cannot make an informed decision? If agreed, at what point along the evolutionary path was free will introduced?

If 'God' didn't plan out every movement and action then where did he stop influencing decision making? For example, making one person more intelligent than another is influencing decision making and therefore influencing free will.

Skommando

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

My point remains, though. Free will involves choice. Choice must involve information and cognition. Therefore can we agree that amoebae cannot make an informed decision? If agreed, at what point along the evolutionary path was free will introduced?

Human's best guess at present would be whenever science currently postulates that homo sapiens sapiens became capable of informed decision and understanding morality and abstract concepts such as justice.

That, presumably, spiritually speaking coincides with the point that God chose to infuse physical homo sapiens sapiens with a spiritual immortal soul (As opposed to the material mortal soul of plants and animals)

Absolam

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I've met some humans who weren't that far removed. My point remains, though. Free will involves choice. Choice must involve information and cognition. Therefore can we agree that amoebae cannot make an informed decision? If agreed, at what point along the evolutionary path was free will introduced?

I don't think we necessarily can, though you may be straying into a debate on what 'will' actually constitutes. An amoeba's decisions are informed by less information than a more complex organisms are, and they couldn't be considered conscious decisions, but it makes a free choice nonetheless, insofar as it is up to the amoeba how it reacts. Whether and how it responds or not to the information it possesses is decided by nothing other than the amoeba; that's free will.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If 'God' didn't plan out every movement and action then where did he stop influencing decision making? For example, making one person more intelligent than another is influencing decision making and therefore influencing free will.

I'm sure you understand there is a more than substantial difference between influencing decision making and making a decision. The temperature influences the decision I make about what I wear, but it doesn't remove my free will. I can wear a jumper in 40 degree heat if I want, if I wear shorts in the snow that's my choice. God can create every single thing that influences those choices, and know what those choices will be, but they will still be my choices.

Peregrinus

There’s an interesting debate to be had on whether free will exists at all, or whether it’s merely an illusion. And it’s a debate which can be conducted in entirely nontheistic terms; nontheist and atheists can argue that in fact we don’t have any free will at all; that all our “choices” are predetermined, and our experience that we choose them is entirely illusory.

But that’s not really a discussion for the Religion and Spirituality forum; more for wherever they talk about psychology, perception, etc.

If in fact there is no free will, it is just an illusion, that everything is predetermined, then that is indeed a state of affairs for which the Creator God must be responsible, since he created it. But that argument, of course, starts from the premise that there is no free will.

The issue here is a narrower one; whether the Christian notion of God is inconsistent with Christian affirmation of free will.

A lot of the thinking here seems t proceed on the assumption that the Christian God is basically like us, only much more powerful and knowledgeable - infinitely so, in fact.

But that’s not the Christian notion of God. In Christian theology, God is much more radically “other” than simply being all-powerful and all-knowing. God observes/experiences the universe from outside, and therefore his observation/experience is not constrained by being part of the universe.

So, even if time is a fundamental condition of our universe (and, again, you can have interesting but entirely nontheistic arguments about that), God is not constrained by time. We cannot see events except as they unfold in time, but God is not so limited. To God all things are immediately present. God does not predict what you will do; he sees what you do. And his seeing what you do no more determines what you do than my seeing it does.

God does not “know in advance” what you will do because, for God, there is no “in advance”.

looksee

We cannot see events except as they unfold in time, but God is not so limited. To God all things are immediately present. God does not predict what you will do; he sees what you do. And his seeing what you do no more determines what you do than my seeing it does.

This statement of what God can /does do is very confident and precise. What is the basis for it?

Nick Park

looksee wrote: »

This statement of what God can /does do is very confident and precise. What is the basis for it?

About 2000 years of Christian theology.

Now, whether you believe it to be true or not is up to you, but that is neither here or there in this discussion. This thread was initiated, in the Christianity Forum, by a poster trying to assert that there was a logical contradiction in God having foreknowledge of someone's free will actions. Therefore, it is perfectly in order to point out that, according to the historic Christian definition of God, the poster's argument is invalid. And, in order to make that point, it is necessary to point out, confidently and precisely, what that Christian definition of God is.

looksee

Nick Park wrote: »

About 2000 years of Christian theology.

Now, whether you believe it to be true or not is up to you, but that is neither here or there in this discussion. This thread was initiated, in the Christianity Forum, by a poster trying to assert that there was a logical contradiction in God having foreknowledge of someone's free will actions. Therefore, it is perfectly in order to point out that, according to the historic Christian definition of God, the poster's argument is invalid. And, in order to make that point, it is necessary to point out, confidently and precisely, what that Christian definition of God is.

Ah, right. I did not realise it was the Christian definition, I thought it was Peregrinus' own personal knowledge. However it does raise the point that both the OP's opinion and my question are subject to opinion/theology developed over 2000 years, how long does an opinion have to be held to become indisputable fact?

Nick Park

looksee wrote: »

Ah, right. I did not realise it was the Christian definition, I thought it was Peregrinus' own personal knowledge. However it does raise the point that both the OP's opinion and my question are subject to opinion/theology developed over 2000 years, how long does an opinion have to be held to become indisputable fact?

The length that an opinion is held never determines whether it is fact or not. Nor does the number of people who hold the opinion. Something can be untrue and believed by just about everyone for thousands of years.

Of course that's all rather besides the point here. If the thread had been posted in a Scientology Forum, then the Scientologist view of God would still be the relevant one to address - even though Scientology was only invented 52 years ago.

antiskeptic

Peregrinus wrote: »

..nontheist and atheists can argue that .. we don’t have any free will at all; that all our “choices” are predetermined

That I'd like to see: how someone can reckon their choices (which presumably including the views they chose to hold) are predetermined.

I mean, if you can't but hold the views you hold then you can't but argue the point as you argue it - irrespective of whether or not the argument stacks up. And you would be predetermined to be convinced by the argument, irrespective of it's merits.

Troublesome place to be starting from that!

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

This statement of what God can /does do is very confident and precise. What is the basis for it?

looksee wrote: »

Ah, right. I did not realise it was the Christian definition, I thought it was Peregrinus' own personal knowledge. However it does raise the point that both the OP's opinion and my question are subject to opinion/theology developed over 2000 years, how long does an opinion have to be held to become indisputable fact?

Well, it being the Christian God, there's obviously a Scriptural basis;
“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit”

“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?”

"“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything”

The theology surrounding our own ideas of omniscience has obviously grown, but (from a Christian perspective) the basis for that theology would appear to be pretty solid; given the existence of the Christian God is there any solid reasoning to think he is other than as Christianity describes him?

looksee

Well that is indeed a very solid circular argument.

Professor Moriarty

I think this discussion really is pointless as there are those of us who question the existence of 'God' but want to discuss the concept of free will in the context of a higher being and there are those who believe in a Christian 'God' and want to discuss free will in the context of Christianity. Ne'er the twain shall meet.

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

Well that is indeed a very solid circular argument.

Not really... Christianity has entertained a plethora of discussion on the nature of God and topics like 'Free Will or God's Plan' over the millennia. If you're interested in discussing how Christianity describes God, given his existence, I'm sure you can find plenty of food for thought.

Absolam

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think this discussion really is pointless as there are those of us who question the existence of 'God' but want to discuss the concept of free will in the context of a higher being and there are those who believe in a Christian 'God' and want to discuss free will in the context of Christianity. Ne'er the twain shall meet.

I'd suggest the two have met on this very thread, if you allow the higher being is one of similar capabilites as the Christian God. However, if you're looking to introduce the concept of a higher being other than God (being an omnipotent omniscient deity) into the mix, then the kind of higher being you want to discuss will probably determine the venue though. There's not much point chatting in the Christianity forum about "Free Will or God's Plan" when the god you want to discuss is Quezovercoatl or MegaMoriarty , is there?