Leicester V Man City

Andersonisgod

Skylinehead wrote: »

Balague's a dope though, and he's just one example. Guardiola's received nothing but criticism over the Bravo situation since day one (rightly so), but that doesn't fit your "Guardiola faces no criticism" agenda. He has plenty of detractors.

This thread alone (and the Reddit post match one) is a fairly good representation of that.

It's not only that he divides opinion so ferociously, that's not my problem with the criticism of him, rather it's how that criticism is framed. In my opinion it's absolutely impossible to logically and cohesively criticise something you don't understand and that's where the problem often lies in the great Pep debate; far too often one, or both sides, don't really know the intricacies of what they are actually debating. Case in point is on this thread, while City defenders made some fairly poor individual errors, 2 of those goals are so easily avoidable if these City players were fully accustomed to Guardiola's method of counter pressing and the spaces they must occupy in possession and at the initial turnover of possession. For those 2 goals the defenders will take the blame by the general public for making individual errors but Pep will blame the shape of the City team at the turnover, the shape in possession and incorrect pressing movements. For those with an understanding of how Pep tries to set up his teams, that would have been the obvious thing to spot today.

sReq | uTeK

Andersonisgod wrote: »

This thread alone (and the Reddit post match one) is a fairly good representation of that.

It's not only that he divides opinion so ferociously, that's not my problem with the criticism of him, rather it's how that criticism is framed. In my opinion it's absolutely impossible to logically and cohesively criticise something you don't understand and that's where the problem often lies in the great Pep debate; far too often one, or both sides, don't really know the intricacies of what they are actually debating. Case in point is on this thread, while City defenders made some fairly poor individual errors, 2 of those goals are so easily avoidable if these City players were fully accustomed to Guardiola's method of counter pressing and the spaces they must occupy in possession and at the initial turnover of possession. For those 2 goals the defenders will take the blame by the general public for making individual errors but Pep will blame the shape of the City team at the turnover, the shape in possession and incorrect pressing movements. For those with an understanding of how Pep tries to set up his teams, that would have been the obvious thing to spot today.

AH thank you for that light bulb moment....we are just a shower of gob****es and we need not criticise what we don't understand.

On a side note your post emphasises peps weakness. On one hand you call him a God (paraphrasing here, but anyone who has seen you post about his teams will understand) on the other hand you clearly state he's playing players not accustomed to his methods of counter pressing.

This poses a few questions that I hope you can answer but will undoubtedly side step.

How can a manager who is the messiah not get across to his players on inordinate wages how to counter press (its not difficult to understand ) after close to 6 months in the job.

And if he can't why does he continue to play them?

Unearthly

Pep absolutely spoofing it up again. Big month ahead. Things could get ugly

Andersonisgod

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

AH thank you for that light bulb moment....we are just a shower if gob****es and we need not criticise what we don't understand.

On a side note your post emphasises peps weakness. On one hand you call him a God (paraphrasing here, but anyone who has seen you post about his teams will understand) on the other hand you clearly state he's playing players not accustomed to his methods of counter pressing.

This poses a few questions thay I hope you can answer but will undoubtedly side step.

How can a manager who is the messiah not get across to his players on inordinate wages how to counter press after close to 6 months in the job.

And if he can't why does he continue to play them?

Again framing of the question is important and when your paraphrasing is done on such a childish and goading way it's very tough to take your question seriously. If you want serious answers ask serious questions in a serious way.

The answer to your question would be fairly long so I'll sum it up as best I can (of course this is only my opinion). The first thing to note is that he took over a squad basically at the end of it's cycle. The demands for instant success in England are huge so it's also worth taking into account Pep's own words right before the season began where he talked about how at Bayern he guided his players in the right direction but that ultimately he let them discover for themselves how to play the specific ways Pep wants the game played. He said at City this simply wasn't possible so instead of self-discovery he has had to drill the players on shape, it's an entirely different method of teaching for Pep and an entirely different method of learning for the players. From his words it was clear he believed the circumstances didn't suit how he taught his players at Bayern and that the City players were not advanced tactically enough to pick it up quickly enough themselves.

The next thing is time. You make 6 months sound like an eternity. It isnt. 6 months work of trying to change not only how these players see and play football but also to change the very culture of the club from the academy, to the staff, to the very fans in the stadium is a very short amount of time. No doubt Guardiola will envy Conte and Klopp who get those uninterrupted weeks to work entirely on shape and prepare for the next game while Guardiola deals with the demands of mid week football with a group that is very much a work in progress.

You must also consider that Pep too is adjusting. His first season at Bayern he was rather taken aback by the speed and physicality of the German style, it was knly the following 2 seasons in which his Bayern team really clicked. From that first season Pep also understood that, despite the talent of the players at his disposal, transporting the Barcelona style to Munich was not possible. Instead by the 3rd season you got this hybrid of the classic German style meshed with classic Pepball. Guardiola himself must figure out what does, and does not, work in England, just as he did in Germany.

Why continue to play these players? His choices are limited, injuries have struck (an area where you could launch a reasonable attack on both Pep and City) and he's forced into lineup decisions he'd ideally not have to make. The perfect example was there today, Fernando (a tough but extremely limited player) starting in the Guardiola position in an important game. That would've been unthinkable before this season began but there we were today. It's a squad in transition, it's a work in progress.

There's a bit more you could jot down for the counter press/failure to grasp the system thing but I'm on a phone.

sReq | uTeK

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Again framing of the question is important and when your paraphrasing is done on such a childish and goading way it's very tough to take your question seriously. If you want serious answers ask serious questions in a serious way.

The answer to your question would be fairly long so I'll sum it up as best I can (of course this is only my opinion). The first thing to note is that he took over a squad basically at the end of it's cycle. The demands for instant success in England are huge so it's also worth taking into account Pep's own words right before the season began where he talked about how at Bayern he guided his players in the right direction but that ultimately he let them discover for themselves how to play the specific ways Pep wants the game played. He said at City this simply wasn't possible so instead of self-discovery he has had to drill the players on shape, it's an entirely different method of teaching for Pep and an entirely different method of learning for the players. From his words it was clear he believed the circumstances didn't suit how he taught his players at Bayern and that the City players were not advanced tactically enough to pick it up quickly enough themselves.

The next thing is time. You make 6 months sound like an eternity. It isnt. 6 months work of trying to change not only how these players see and play football but also to change the very culture of the club from the academy, to the staff, to the very fans in the stadium is a very short amount of time. No doubt Guardiola will envy Conte and Klopp who get those uninterrupted weeks to work entirely on shape and prepare for the next game while Guardiola deals with the demands of mid week football with a group that is very much a work in progress.

You must also consider that Pep too is adjusting. His first season at Bayern he was rather taken aback by the speed and physicality of the German style, it was knly the following 2 seasons in which his Bayern team really clicked. From that first season Pep also understood that, despite the talent of the players at his disposal, transporting the Barcelona style to Munich was not possible. Instead by the 3rd season you got this hybrid of the classic German style meshed with classic Pepball. Guardiola himself must figure out what does, and does not, work in England, just as he did in Germany.

Why continue to play these players? His choices are limited, injuries have struck (an area where you could launch a reasonable attack on both Pep and City) and he's forced into lineup decisions he'd ideally not have to make. The perfect example was there today, Fernando (a tough but extremely limited player) starting in the Guardiola position in an important game. That would've been unthinkable before this season began but there we were today. It's a squad in transition, it's a work in progress.

There's a bit more you could jot down for the counter press/failure to grasp the system thing but I'm on a phone.

Again it's like a politicians answer. This is not getting used o a league nor does it have anything to do with his past teams.

The fact of the matter Is that one of the best managers of modern times ( or so the media have touted him) cannot get the fundamentals or pressing across to his players.

I'd be playing reserve team players if players on 150 grand plus a week can't understand how to press. He should give Klopp a call, he'd have his team top of the KMs chart by next week.

Andersonisgod

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Again it's like a politicians answer. This is not getting used o a league nor does it have anything to do with his past teams.

The fact of the matter Is that one of the best managers of modern times ( or so the media have touted him) cannot get the fundamentals or pressing across to his players.

I'd be playing reserve team players if players on 150 grand plus a week can't understand how to press. He should give Klopp a call, he'd have his team top of the KMs chart by next week.

So buzz words like "politicians answer" and "you call Pep God" are the counter argument to what Im saying? So when I say that these arguments are framed incorrectly again can nobody please argue with that point? I literally might as well have written "Pep is the bestest ever and you're a noncompoop" for all the good it would have done me.

Trigger

Hang on a minute, I thought you didn't see the match?

Andersonisgod

astradave wrote: »

Hang on a minute, I thought you didn't see the match?

I literally didn't, that's the funny thing, I only saw the goals on Reddit and it was still blatantly obvious to me (from really short clips!) what the more important issue would've been for Guardiola yet I don't think it was picked up on this thread at all.

Harry Palmr

Sometimes it's not about quality, it's about fight. His team lack that at times.

sReq | uTeK

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I literally didn't, that's the funny thing, I only saw the goals on Reddit and it was still blatantly obvious to me (from really short clips!) what the more important issue would've been for Guardiola yet I don't think it was picked up on this thread at all.

Wow your ego knows no bounds. You're actually criticising people's analysis of the game based on clips from goals.

You slate the squad yet when they were winning it was the best football the football the premier league had seen.

So it's the squads fault when they lose but it's peps genius when they win...I get it now.

You're a parody of yourself at this stage and your inconsistencies are hilarious. Pointing them out at every turn is just boring at this stage

Andersonisgod

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Wow your ego knows no bounds. You're actually criticising people's analysis of the game based on clips from goals.

You slate the squad yet when they were winning it was the best football the football the premier league had seen.

So it's the squads fault when they lose but it's peps genius when they win...I get it now.

You're a parody of yourself at this stage and your inconsistencies are hilarious. Pointing them out at every turn is just boring at this stage

Yep I am and it is hilarious. Like on a thread where the majority of posts are bashing Pep and yet none of them picked up on 2 goals being conceded due to a failure to implement one of Pep's core principles.....LOL.....

Me, my big ego, and big brain are gonna leave now but I'm just gonna leave you with this to consider. In the most childish, arrogant and goading manner possible you dared me to give you a football answer to a football question. Despite the mocking tone, I obliged and I gave you a fairly well thought out (for a football forum) answer that drew on a few different points that could gave easily been pickec up and debated about. Instead of doing that, you ignored the football answer you demanded in the first place and just continued with childish insults. The only thing you've "pointed out" in this thread is that actual football debate is wasted on you.

One_Of_Shanks

Pound for pound Man City have the best squad in the league.
It was stronger before the bizarre goal-keeping change but others might disagree with me there.

But it is the strongest squad in a relatively poor premiership. So if you have the best squad and you're struggling a bit, it's inevitable that people will ask questions of the manager.

To be fair to him, he's only been there a wet weekend so you have to give him time to settle in but it hasn't been a great start.

Too much emphasis on trying to attack from the back and you don't get the time on the ball to do that as much in England as you would in Spain, maybe not quite so much in Germany either, to a lesser degree.
But he'll probably get it right eventually given time, it's just these days everything is expected to be instant.

The Talking Bread

Andersonisgod wrote: »

So buzz words like "politicians answer" and "you call Pep God" are the counter argument to what Im saying? So when I say that these arguments are framed incorrectly again can nobody please argue with that point? I literally might as well have written "Pep is the bestest ever and you're a noncompoop" for all the good it would have done me.

Oh, come on, you cannot, of all people, accuse people of using buzzwords!:D

Andersonisgod

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Oh, come on, you cannot, of all people, accuse people of using buzzwords!:D

After I give a football answer to a football question asked in the manner it was, and then responded to in the manner it was I can absolutely, 100% definitely accuse someone of using buzzwords as a substitute for a cohesive argument.

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

After I give a football answer to a football question asked in the manner it was, and then responded to in the manner it was I can absolutely, 100% definitely accuse someone of using buzzwords as a substitute for a cohesive argument.

And yes I realise you're not being serious my tone might come across incorrectly there. I'm not outraged, just slightly annoyed so I'm gonna leave again

Jayop

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Yep I am and it is hilarious. Like on a thread where the majority of posts are bashing Pep and yet none of them picked up on 2 goals being conceded due to a failure to implement one of Pep's core principles.....LOL.....

.

I know my tiny brain can't comprehend the basics of pepball, but surely it's the managers job to ensure his core principles are implemented, and if they are not repeatedly then he is the one ultimately to blame.

You're logic confuses me.

Andersonisgod

Jayop wrote: »

I know my tiny brain can't comprehend the basics of pepball, but surely it's the managers job to ensure his core principles are implemented, and if they are not repeatedly then he is the one ultimately to blame.

You're logic confuses me.

I literally posted the longest message on this thread explaining why (even with examples, paraphrasing and references to his time at Bayern!!) that hasn't happened yet. I could not be more clear. I don't understand.

SlickRic

Maybe Pep's core principles aren't infallible?

The argument that the players simply aren't used to what Pep demands is too simple. Any coach could use that argument for any loss. Pep doesn't get a pass purely because you say what he demands hasn't been taken on by the players. If that were a valid argument, then no manager could ever be blamed for anything. It would ALWAYS be the players' issue.

I'm also tired of the 'he's changing a culture' argument. It's utterly pretentious. Most managers are moulding a club in their image. Klopp. Conte. Mourinho. Wenger. Fúcking Allardyce. They all do it. It's not unique to Pep just because he's Pep.

There is no way Pep should be under pressure yet (and he's not). And he should be given as much time as possible. Like most managers. But if he's getting things wrong, or demanding things he shouldn't, or playing defenders when they can't defend, or his team is not playing well, he should be questioned and criticised. Just like he's praised (like he was at the start of the season) when the team is playing well.

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

...instead of self-discovery he has had to drill the players on shape, it's an entirely different method of teaching for Pep and an entirely different method of learning for the players...

That was my favourite line anyway.

Has he thought about watching Dangerous Minds, where put upon teacher Michelle Pfeiffer teaches children to reach new heights through self discovery?

Andersonisgod

SlickRic wrote: »

Maybe Pep's core principles aren't infallible?

The argument that the players simply aren't used to what Pep demands is too simple. Any coach could use that argument for any loss. Pep doesn't get a pass purely because you say what he demands hasn't been taken on by the players. If that were a valid argument, then no manager could ever be blamed for anything. It would ALWAYS be the players' issue.

I'm also tired of the 'he's changing a culture' argument. It's utterly pretentious. Most managers are moulding a club in their image. Klopp. Conte. Mourinho. Winger. Fúcking Allardyce. They all do it. It's not unique to Pep just because he's Pep.

There is no way Pep should be under pressure yet (and he's not). And he should be given as much time as possible. Like most managers. But if he's getting things wrong, or demanding things he shouldn't, or playing defenders when they can't defend, or his team is not playing well, he should be questioned and criticised. Just like he's praised (like he was at the start of the season) when the teams is playing well.

At no stage have I in this thread (or ever for that matter) said that his methods are infallible so I'm not sure what your point is there.

What coach demands that his teams play football like Guardiola teams do? Find me the closest reference point for Guardiola's football and then ask how many of City's current players have worked under such a coach? The very reason Pep is so interesting a figure is because his outlook on football is so extreme and out of the norm, that's the very reason he's so widely discussed. Would it be a cop out fod most coaches? Maybe, because the complexity of the instructions likely don't work against the very nature of the players. Guardiola believes that ultimately his way (and the various methods he has utilized to get to "his way") is the best way and that it is worth striving for, even if it means hardship and a re-education of players. Is he right? I don't know. But isn't that the fun of it? To see Guardiola challenge and try to change the culture of football in these different countries? To challenge conventional norms? I'm not saying his process is the best for yielding instant results I'm only trying to explain the circumstances around that.

I'm also not even saying that he shouldn't be criticised, my issue is that the criticism levelled at him here (and some elsewhere) is framed poorly or is just downright incorrect. I mean surely for criticism to be just and valid it must have reason or logic behind it.

Andersonisgod

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That was my favourite line anyway.

Has he thought about watching Dangerous Minds, where put upon teacher Michelle Pfeiffer teaches children to reach new heights through self discovery?

At least you read it, thanks.

sReq | uTeK

Jayop wrote: »

I know my tiny brain can't comprehend the basics of pepball, but surely it's the managers job to ensure his core principles are implemented, and if they are not repeatedly then he is the one ultimately to blame.

You're logic confuses me.

Did you not see his logic, it has something about Bayern not being as good without him and how the German league was very fast paced. Kind of dodged around the question with 1000 word paragraphs that had no relevance and then said 6 months to teach people how to press wasn't long enough.

That's about the jist of it.

Andersonisgod

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Did you not see his logic, it has something about Bayern not being as good without him and how the German league was very fast paced. Kind of dodged around the question with 1000 word paragraphs that had no relevance and then said 6 months to teach people how to press wasn't long enough.

That's about the jist of it.

Tip for the future: paraphrasing might not be your strong point.

sReq | uTeK

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Tip for the future: paraphrasing might not be your strong point.

Its pretty accurate you're just blinded by your idolisation.

Present tip. When 4 to 5 people pick apart your logic and inconsistencies in a thread you can start to question the validity of your responses.

Also didn't you exit stage left?

Andersonisgod

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Its pretty accurate you're just blinded by your idolisation.

Present tip. When 4 to 5 people pick about your logic and inconsistencies in a thread you can start to question the validity of your responses.

Also didn't you exit stage left?

To be very honest with you, the only part of that post that showed idolisation was probably the sheer fact that I have that information off the top of my head just based on previous reading materials, memory of quotes and memory of games. I admit to being a fan of Guardiola and that post is fairly balanced. Is it a post open to debate? Definitely. Was the way in which it was debated correct or even mature? Not really, no.

But those 4-5 people follow me from thread to thread so that's a given anyway. Those 4-5 people also haven't really offered any actual detailed counter point either.

I did leave, then I returned, then I left again and yet here I am. Though I'm mainly here for the fairly long debate that's about to take placr with Slick Ric.

Jayop

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I literally posted the longest message on this thread explaining why (even with examples, paraphrasing and references to his time at Bayern!!) that hasn't happened yet. I could not be more clear. I don't understand.

And yet in that simple part I quoted your whole argument turns into contradictory nonsense. It's fine, you are blinded by genius and the rest of us are just blind.

The Talking Bread

Andersonisgod wrote: »

After I give a football answer to a football question asked in the manner it was, and then responded to in the manner it was I can absolutely, 100% definitely accuse someone of using buzzwords as a substitute for a cohesive argument.

whilst, of course you have some reasonable points about Pep's squad, with due respect, it is very difficult for any poster to maintain a reasonable debate with you and it does bring about poster's resorting to mocking. Not "advice", just perspective as who am I to tell you how to post!

You have to maintain some sort of acknowledgement that your rebuttals in Pep debates are automatically lathered in bias and excuses! I think most debates will then just turn into "childish goading" matches.

Essentially your posts often scream of not only parody, but a parody of parody!

Andersonisgod

Jayop wrote: »

And yet in that simple part I quoted your whole argument turns into contradictory nonsense. It's fine, you are blinded by genius and the rest of us are just blind.

But not really. You are assuming I'm arguing something along the lines of "Pep is great, this is why" at least that's what I'm assuming you think my argument is given your posts. My long post was going into a bit of detail as to why his counter pressing methods and shape are not yet fully functioning. There's a vast and considerable difference between those 2 arguments.

sReq | uTeK

Andersonisgod wrote: »

To be very honest with you, the only part of that post that showed idolisation was probably the sheer fact that I have that information off the top of my head just based on previous reading materials, memory of quotes and memory of games. I admit to being a fan of Guardiola and that post is fairly balanced. Is it a post open to debate? Definitely. Was the way in which it was debated correct or even mature? Not really, no.

But those 4-5 people follow me from thread to thread so that's a given anyway. Those 4-5 people also haven't really offered any actual detailed counter point either.

I did leave, then I returned, then I left again and yet here I am. Though I'm mainly here for the fairly long debate that's about to take placr with Slick Ric.

The counter argument is evident to all but you.

THE MANAGER CAN NOT GET HIS PLAYERS TO PRESS 6 MONTHS IN. A FUNDAMENTAL TACTIC IN HIS METHOD OF PLAY.

Either the players are pig ****, which they can't be because according to you they've played some of the best football this league has ever seen.

OR

The manager can't get his point across to the players and is therfore at fault.

Andersonisgod

The Talking Bread wrote: »

whilst, of course you have some reasonable points about Pep's squad, with due respect, it is very difficult for any poster to maintain a reasonable debate with you and it does bring about poster's resorting to mocking. Not "advice", just perspective as who am I to tell you how to post!

You have to maintain some sort of acknowledgement that your rebuttals in Pep debates are automatically lathered in bias and excuses! I think most debates will then just turn into "childish goading" matches.

Essentially your posts often scream of not only parody, but a parody of parody!

I think you are accusing me of a level of meta that I am simply not capable of performing.

I'm genuinely fairly good to debate football with, particularly in person, but it does annoy me when I go and write a crazy long post on my smart phone and it's totally ignored and I just get more mocking.

The Talking Bread

If Pep can't be blamed for the bad football, he can't be handed out hyperbolic praise when Man City trash Stoke 4-1 or even when they beat Barca.

Find a middle ground and people will respect your opinions and "long posts" and book read knowledge a bit more. And maybe then you won't be drawn into frustrating debates.

Andersonisgod

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

The counter argument is evident to all but you.

THE MANAGER CAN NOT GET HIS PLAYERS TO PRESS 6 MONTHS IN. A FUNDAMENTAL TACTIC IN HIS METHOD OF PLAY.

Either the players are pig ****, which they can't be because according to you they've played some of the best football this league has ever seen.

OR

The manager can't get his point across to the players and is therfore at fault.

But in that long post I referenced Bayern who, in his first season, also struggled with his specific counter press and shape. They eventually worked that out. On the area of counter press and shape it is hugely complex because it's Guardiola and he's one of the coaches (along with some others) who seem to be moving towards away from set formations and towards the universal. I'll just leave it at saying that, as I saud early, it takes time to adjust to because, essentially, what he's asking these players to do almost certainly goes against the things they've been taught to do, and have done, since they were kids. You can't transform players overnight. You can't change the culture of a club in a heartbeat just because Pep is here now. It requires time, patience, understanding and nurturing.

The Talking Bread

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I think you are accusing me of a level of meta that I am simply not capable of performing.

I'm genuinely fairly good to debate football with, particularly in person, but it does annoy me when I go and write a crazy long post on my smart phone and it's totally ignored and I just get more mocking.

Therein lies the problem. A long post, a book read post or a statistical derived post won't get any more acknowledgement if others disagree and have good reason to.

sReq | uTeK

The Talking Bread wrote: »

If Pep can't be blamed for the bad football, he can't be handed out hyperbolic praise when Man City trash Stoke 4-1 or even when they beat Barca.

Find a middle ground and people will respect your opinions and "long posts" and book read knowledge a bit more. And maybe then you won't be drawn into frustrating debates.

Exactly, it's peps genius this and peps genius that but when they draw 3-3 with Celtic and Lose two on the trot it's the squads failure to implement basic footballing fundementals. Again, this is the same squad that can reach footballing heights never seen before In the premier league but are pretty much primates that can't take instructions when it suits arguments.

Andersonisgod

The Talking Bread wrote: »

If Pep can't be blamed for the bad football, he can't be handed out hyperbolic praise when Man City trash Stoke 4-1 or even when they beat Barca.

Find a middle ground and people will respect your opinions and "long posts" and book read knowledge a bit more. And maybe then you won't be drawn into frustrating debates.

Thing is I'm not saying he can't be blamed though. I'm making the fairly reasonable argument that his methods take time to implement and to become second nature to his players. So maybe you end up with days like this but you might also get games like against Barcelona. In the long run he believes what he's preaching will reap rewards for the club in multiple ways. Sure, I think he's right but I'm not even really arguing about whether he will be right or not, I'm only trying to explain his point of view.

Two of the top managers in the world looking like fools this season.

Fun times

Andersonisgod

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Therein lies the problem. A long post, a book read post or a statistical derived post won't get any more acknowledgement if others disagree and have good reason to.

Which would be fine but so far the argument is "you think Pep is God but he isn't" which really has little to do with "here's why it takes time to understand Guardiola's counter press and shape." Can you see the disparity in those 2?

Arghus

Is there any point at this stage lads. We all know where this will eventually end: in a circular debate mostly about semantics, with football being fairly tangential to it all.

And I think that's the game all along.

sReq | uTeK

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Thing is I'm not saying he can't be blamed though. I'm making the fairly reasonable argument that his methods take time to implement and to become second nature to his players. So maybe you end up with days like this but you might also get games like against Barcelona. In the long run he believes what he's preaching will reap rewards for the club in multiple ways. Sure, I think he's right but I'm not even really arguing about whether he will be right or not, I'm only trying to explain his point of view.

Jesus Christ just read what you wrote. In one sense you state he is not without criticism then in the next you give him a clear "when It works it's class when it doesn't it takes time" I. E he's not at fault and players need to adapt but when it works he receives all the plaudits.

Quite simply if his team can play pepball against Barcelona they should be able to do It against a struggling Leicester city team and not let Jamie Vardy a player off the Boil put 3 past them.

Andersonisgod

Arghus wrote: »

Is there any point at this stage lads. We all know where this will eventually end: in a circular debate mostly about semantics, with football being fairly tangential to it all.

And I think that's the game all along.

But I have posted some pretty football heavy comments on this thread and not really done much mocking either so...

The Talking Bread

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Thing is I'm not saying he can't be blamed though. I'm making the fairly reasonable argument that his methods take time to implement and to become second nature to his players. So maybe you end up with days like this but you might also get games like against Barcelona. In the long run he believes what he's preaching will reap rewards for the club in multiple ways. Sure, I think he's right but I'm not even really arguing about whether he will be right or not, I'm only trying to explain his point of view.

Is this a written in stone "comes with the package" term of a ulti million"Pep contract"? The whole "leave it with me for a while" preamble

The question is do you honestly think he can implement this Pepesque tactical nuance into this squad. What players in the squad will thrive in it.
If so how long will he be given to do so?
If not, should he get another few hundred million. Who does he get rid of? Who does he bring in.
At what point does he have to accept "this aint going to work in the Premier League" if it continues not to.

The Talking Bread

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Two of the top managers in the world looking like fools this season.

Fun times

Give him time. Moyes has certain tactics and it will take until the Summer at least to sign Fellaini so he can't be judged until then.

Andersonisgod

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Jesus Christ just read what you wrote. In one sense you state he is not without criticism then in the next you give him a clear "when It works it's class when it doesn't it takes time" I. E he's not at fault and players need to adapt but when it works he receives all the plaudits.

Quite simply if his team can play pepball against Barcelona they should be able to do It against a struggling Leicester city team and not let Jamie Vardy a player off the Boil put 3 past them.

Thing is though, football doesn't work like that. It's not a case of "oh you did it right one week so you'll do it right all the time now." That's not realistic. Its about constant work, it's attention to detail, it's about doing something again and again until it becomes almost a reflex, like it's just second nature. That was the struggle at Bayern in the first season, that's the struggle now. It's not about blame or credit, think beyond the short term. It's about knowing at all times where each player should be in Guardiola's shape, who should press, when to press, knowing the patterns, knowing the zones they must occupy in relation to the position of the ball on the pitch. It's not easy and it's something schooled at Barcelona so when Guardiola did take over the first team he had a squad there heavy on Masia graduates familiar with all of this. At Bayern it took time because you are teaching something that takes years and years and you're condensing it down to be taught in a season or two. That's Guardiola's challenge. It was his challenge at Bayern, it's his challenge in England. The "he lost so he's bad" is lowest common denominator stuff, it's pub banter. So on thar football related post now I'm going stage left.

dfx-

SlickRic wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I think any manager getting a load of stick at this stage of the season is a bit mental. But that's where we're at, and all managers get it. Pep shouldn't be immune, and he normally is.

One of his disciples Balague is already out on Twitter defending Pep saying how could it be his fault when City are 2-0 down within 5 minutes.

The problem is, Pep has never been able to figure out properly how to combat direct counter attacking football IMO. His answer to combating it would be 'keep the ball better, and win it back quicker than we are'. But if your players aren't good enough, and your defenders aren't good enough, then maybe you should figure out another way.

I just think it's a blindspot he has. He's so dogmatic in how he believes the game should be played that, for example, he buys Stones for £50m because he's a great footballer.

The fact is, in England, more than Germany or Spain, you have teams who've no problem packing the middle and going ultra direct. City should've beaten Chelsea last week, but couldn't handle Chelsea's directness on the counter.

Also, has Bravo let in every shot he's faced for the last few games?

Lots of problems for Pep to answer.

Who has ever been able to attack and simultaneously defend a counter attack? Mourinho has made a career of making 'the transition' the key point of the game, but he does it from a position of extreme caution of absorbing pressure (not having the ball), a big physical striker and positional discipline. There's very few teams who can do both.

Unless you're trying to give the ball away, you have to keep it and if you lose it when you're attacking, there is always a threat of a counter. So you have to be better at keeping the ball.

Equally you can say there are less tactically aware teams in England, lower quality teams that fill out anywhere from ninth down in the league. Man City made mincemeat of West Brom, 7th in the league and an archetypical 'tough' Premier League away game. It was such a humiliation that West Brom fans were making fun of their own lack of possession during the game.

Richard Hillman

I am seeing lots of stuff about City and pressing. They had 76% possession in the first half and 3-0 down. They didn't even have the opportunity to press. There was nothing to press because Leicester were too quick to get it forward. They played into Leicesters hands by getting drunk on possession. It was exactly how Leicester won the league and they still played that way.

They got hammered today because they lost possession and had their players spread out for passing, leaving Stones exposed to Vardy.

Leicester are the New Zealand rugby team of Football. They'll let you have the ball all day long, but when you mess up (and you'll do it eventually) they will shoot forward and score.

People need to start realising that possession can be a burden. If you are not doing anything with the ball, you are seconds away from conceding.

Guardiolas style of football is outdated. It was outdated 2 years ago. Itis hilarious they some folk are still persistent with it but also scary that all the mini Guardiolas in their oversized umbro jackets are trying to drill this outdated football into childrens heads at underage level.

dfx-

Leicester are also only on 16 points and just defeated by Sunderland, so it's not a template of how to play either...

Turtwig

Claudio Bravo looks a shadow of the keeper he was at sociadad and the first two seasons at Barca. Even before he joined city he was somewhat suspect for Barca.

City have no back line. They have no defensive midfielder like busquets. They showed against spurs that they weren't press resistant. They've shown against numerous teams that they're vulnerable to the counter attack. Stones has potential but right now his decision making is dreadful. Pep has frequently mentioned that his team have a height disadvantage for defending set plays. Up front they huff and puff far more than they blow a defence down. (Then when they do create the opportunities they inevitably conspire to miss them.) Perhaps worst of all they appear mentally to be very fragile.

Yet with at those problems they're still very much in contention for all 3 major competitions.
Pep gets some really unfair criticism at times but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be criticised.
He played right into Leicester's hands today. Probably sapped the morale of his squad quite significantly too. Whatever way you dress it up that's all on him.

fullstop

Jayop wrote: »

I'm not. If you read what I said it started all about the Pep and city. I was using the point that he had spent so much to emphasize the point.

Umm...yes you did.

Jayop wrote: »

Amazing that he's not getting anything like the abuse Jose gets especially given city spend nearly 30m more than United and we're coming from a higher base.

Funny because only last week you had a go at someone for mentioning United on the City v Chelsea thread :rolleyes:

Jayop

fullstop wrote: »

Umm...yes you did.



Funny because only last week you had a go at someone for mentioning United on the City v Chelsea thread :rolleyes:

Roll up your eyes all you want but the post you quoted proves exactly what I said. I only mentioned United as a comparison.