Aleppo

cfuserkildare

Just a thought here, I figured I would bounce it around and see what you all think.

Are the actions of the Russian Military in Syria a deliberate attempt to get the west to retaliate?

We have all seen and heard what Putin thinks of the democratic west.

Am I jumping to conclusions? or is there something in what i say?

Gatling

It's possible he's trying to draw them in to a deep long lasting conflict,
Aleppo will fall for a few weeks,come January or February it will be back In rebels hands ,
Russia bombarding from the air won't achieve any victory ,
Unless there will to put 250,000 to 300,000 troops on the ground it just going to be an expensive campaign for both russia and syria

Dohnjoe

Within two pages this thread will be about Iraq

Mr. Incognito

Russia is backing the Government.

The US is backing the Rebels.

The government is a brutal dictatorship that the US was backing until it did a deal with Russia on oil.

The people are caught in the middle. The US will bugger off and the rebels will be wiped out and Russia will have another puppet friendly dictator next door.

A Little Pony

The war is nearly over, the rebels have lost and America should advocate the rebels surrender and lay down arms. They have lost and it is pretty obvious now at this point.

Boggy Turf

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Are the actions of the Russian Military in Syria a deliberate attempt to get the west to retaliate?

No. It's a lot deeper than that. The rebellion is nearly over now and Russia will get what it wanted.

s4uv3

What's an Aleppo?

Gatling

A Little Pony wrote: »

The war is nearly over, the rebels have lost and America should advocate the rebels surrender and lay down arms. They have lost and it is pretty obvious now at this point.

Isis Retook Palmayra from the Syrian army that just legged it ,
It's safe to say this war will rage for several more years

Parachutes

s4uv3 wrote: »

What's an Aleppo?

Beat me to it. Great minds.

This is a proxy war, fought between the USA, Russia, Turkey, Kurds & Saudi Arabia with other countries providing cannon fodder mercenaries to fight on their behalf.
Once Alleppo falls to the government, the war will return to eliminating the Islamic state with Countries like Turkey only selecting to attack Islamic state when they're in areas that don't have Kurdish militants and Leaving ISIS to freely roam in areas where the Kurds are.

Trump may pull back the US support when he becomes the US President but that still leaves the mess for the local powers to sort out and they have their own agendas.
Russia only cares as long as Syria retains a Russian friendly government.
Interesting to note that the media is concentrating on the civilian deaths rather than the defeat of western backed rebels in the city.

A Little Pony

Gatling wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The war is nearly over, the rebels have lost and America should advocate the rebels surrender and lay down arms. They have lost and it is pretty obvious now at this point.

Isis Retook Palmayra from the Syrian army that just legged it ,
It's safe to say this war will rage for several more years

They are finished, Assad just needs to push ahead now and finish this cruel war. The sooner they finish it the more lives will be saved.

TerrorFirmer

Better for everyone at this stage if Assad just won. The country is ruined, hundreds of thousands are dead, the economy and infrastructure is wrecked. Even if Assad was eliminated for the most part, you'd probably still have a situation like Libya with civil war continuing between other competing factions - look how that's worked out since Gadaffi's been gone, Libya is a disaster.

Not in any way shape or form an endorsement of the Assad regime but hard to see any other alternative right now.

uck51js9zml2yt

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Within two pages this thread will be about Iraq

Congrats, you did it in 3 posts!!

As for Aleppo, it's finished.

Interesting that Damascus isn't mentioned at all.
What's the state of play there?

Grayson

Apparently the Syrian army are shooting civilians on the spot.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/13/red-cross-urgent-plea-to-save-civilians-aleppo-syria

Children are reportedly trapped inside a building under attack in besieged Aleppo, the UN’s children agency has said, amid reports that forces loyal to the regime of Bashar al-Assad are carrying out extrajudicial killings in areas of the city recently reclaimed from the Syrian opposition.

“According to alarming reports from a doctor in the city, many children, possibly more than 100, unaccompanied or separated from their families, are trapped in a building, under heavy attack in east Aleppo,” Unicef said in a statement. “We urge all parties to the conflict to allow the safe and immediate evacuation of all children.”

The UN’s human rights office said earlier there were reliable reports that pro-Syrian regime forces have been entering homes in the last remaining rebel strongholds in eastern Aleppo and killing civilians on the spot.

It said it had received reports from multiple sources that 82 civilians had been killed across four different neighbourhoods. “The reports we had are of people being shot in the street trying to flee and shot in their homes,” Rupert Colville, a UN spokesman, said. “There could be many more.”

Grayson

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Within two pages this thread will be about Iraq

It only took you three posts to get to it.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Within two pages this thread will be about Iraq Israel/USA

Grayson

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Better for everyone at this stage if Assad just won. The country is ruined, hundreds of thousands are dead, the economy and infrastructure is wrecked. Even if Assad was eliminated for the most part, you'd probably still have a situation like Libya with civil war continuing between other competing factions - look how that's worked out since Gadaffi's been gone, Libya is a disaster.

Not in any way shape or form an endorsement of the Assad regime but hard to see any other alternative right now.

I hate to agree, because Assad is a scumbag but you might be right. It's like choosing cancer or ebola.

Lola Shallow Toothpick

Lola Shallow Toothpick wrote: »

Congrats, you did it in 3 posts!!

As for Aleppo, it's finished.

Interesting that Damascus isn't mentioned at all.
What's the state of play there?

As far as I can tell Damascus is safely under government control, probably as safe as any other city that outside any of the war zones.

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

As far as I can tell Damascus is safely under government control, probably as safe as any other city that outside any of the war zones.

Depends on how you describe "safe"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3371675/Bombed-houses-rubble-far-eye-apocalyptic-landscape-remains-one-region-Syrian-capital-Damascus.html

Gatling

A Little Pony wrote: »

They are finished, Assad just needs to push ahead now and finish this cruel war. .

He hasn't got the manpower to finish the war as it stands there forcing conscription on the people coming out of Aleppo and disappearing others ,
Assad has been bled dry ,he has russian bombing everything and anything and that's it,
The kurds will get their state some time in 2017 and turkey won't be leaving syria any time soon either .

Gatling

Grayson wrote: »

Depends on how you describe "safe"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3371675/Bombed-houses-rubble-far-eye-apocalyptic-landscape-remains-one-region-Syrian-capital-Damascus.html

And yet it's described as some Syrian utopia untouched by war

Son Of A Vidic

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

The US is backing the Rebels.

The same America that spent $500 million dollars training 50 moderate rebels, who then subsequently defected when they clashed with Al Nusra/Al Qaeda during their first armed action. And being the great bunch of lads that they were, they immediately defected and joined up with their jihadi brothers. But America has a historical habit and previous form for 'accidentally' arming extreme jihadi terrorist groups.

I wanted Assad out in 2011, but the fúcked up American policy of arming extremists masquerading as so-called moderates and seeing how the Libya was returned to the stone age by western incompetence & meddling, soon changed my opinion. I still want Assad to go, but first I want to see the extermination of the likes of Al Nusra and such vermin that America have been desperately helping. Syria was once a secular society and such Jiahdi scum mustn't be allowed to prevail and turn it into Libya 2.0.

The Russians predicted back in 2011, that the moderate Free Syrian Army would be brushed aside, become mostly an irrelevance and Syria would become a hotbed & breeding ground for the likes of Al Nusra and Daesh. The arming of these so called 'moderates' by the West and the heavy backing from the medieval regimes of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, has only intensified, prolonged and turned Syria into a bloodbath. Many in the Syrian army owe no allegiance to Assad, but many see their fight as a last stand to stopping Syria becoming the new Libya or raqqa. So afaic, we need the elimination of the Islamist fanatics first and then we can focus on Assad's removal & transition.

Unfortunately though, once again America hasn't helped matters because they seem to have conveniently suspending token operations against Daesh in Raqqa and this has allowed Daesh to target Palmyra again with an estimated 4,000 fighters. Amazing how the most monitored piece of real estate by American intelligence, seems to have missed such a large force of terrorist moving across a flat, sandy, barren landscape. The same intelligence agencies that somehow missed the thousands of Daesh oil tankers that were passing unhindered in massive convoys through Turkish border posts. The Russian Air Force were baffled by how American drones and satellite surveillance failed to spot them, especially considering how long they were operating in the region before the Russians arrived.

The one positive I can see is, Trump will end the hypocritical nonsense of the current administration speaking out of both sides of its mouth and their duplicitous activities in Syria. I believe he will do business with Russia and I think they will join forces the way Russia has already suggested and they will eliminate the filth of Al Nusra & Daesh. Now the warmongering neocons and Cold War 2.0 aspirationists won't be happy by all of that, but the people of Syria will be and that's all that matters.

Elmer Blooker

Deleted User wrote: »

As far as I can tell Damascus is safely under government control, probably as safe as any other city that outside any of the war zones.

The vast majority of the city is safe but that will all change when the moderates remove Asaad.
Then the blood of Alawites, Christians and just about anyone who the moderates consider to be an infidel or apostate will flow in the streets but that's democracy for you! At least Syria will then be free!

The kurds will get their state some time in 2017 and turkey won't be leaving syria any time soon either .

What? The Turks are in Syria to PREVENT the Kurds getting their own state.

Elmer Blooker

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

What? The Turks are in Syria to PREVENT the Kurds getting their own state.

That is the second proxy war that is going on there, the Turkish army is there to wipe out the Kurds to weaken the Kurdish areas in Turkey, otherwise Kurdistan could be created from parts of northern Syria & Iraq.

Grayson

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The vast majority of the city is safe but that will all change when the moderates remove Asaad.
Then the blood of Alawites, Christians and just about anyone who the moderates consider to be an infidel or apostate will flow in the streets but that's democracy for you! At least Syria will then be free!

Depends. People in the west seem to think that moderate muslims would massacre everyone else. If you want a good example of a similar situation then take a look at Lebanon. In Lebanon everyone went bat sh1t crazy. Most of the worst violence was committed by christian militias but no religious/ethic group was without blood on their hands.

The Sabra and Shantilla massacres are a good example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre


(Edit: I'd recommend reading Pity the Nation by Robert Fisk. The politics of the country make Northern Ireland or Game of thrones look simplistic)

ChikiChiki

Two major superpowers and some major scumbags lobbying for continued war behind each of them to make some money. Poor civilians caught in the middle of it. Tis sickening.

cameramonkey

This seems to be a pretty good round up of events in Aleppo and the fall of Palmyra to the Jihadist.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/aleppo-falls-to-syrian-regime-bashar-al-assad-rebels-uk-government-more-than-one-story-robert-fisk-a7471576.html

My take is that the Syrian govt will take Aleppo and it will not fall again unless the Saudi/ US or Turks pump huge amounts more of money / material into the fight. Palmyra will be liberated in weeks if not days. I believe that with the new US president we will see the defeat of the Jihadist on the wider battlefield with the Syrian govt making big gains. Trump will back the Russians in Syria, the game is up for those who want a jihadist victory.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Be careful about some of the stories being reported about Russia.

We do propaganda just as good as they do.

redcup342

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Be careful about some of the stories being reported about Russia.

We do propaganda just as good as they do.

Yeah, I don't know what to believe anymore, seems to be all biased.

ricero

The arab spring seems to have made the world a worse and more unstable place. Look at the mess that Libya is in now. Say what you want about gaddafi but he ran a tight ship. Sooner Assad gains back control the better

corner of hells

s4uv3 wrote: »

What's an Aleppo?

I think it's a Syrian cornetto.

ricero

ricero wrote: »

The arab spring seems to have made the world a worse and more unstable place. Look at the mess that Libya is in now. Say what you want about gaddafi but he ran a tight ship. Sooner Assad gains back control the better

With the exception of Tunisia, it has been disastrous for the populations of most countries that experienced an uprising.

In those places that were supported by the "west" the uprisings were crushed, Qatar for example and in those places that had an anti western government, it's resulted in long civil wars & instability.

redcup342

redcup342 wrote: »

Yeah, I don't know what to believe anymore, seems to be all biased.

Best to read from several "news" sources, but you'll have to sort the facts from the propaganda yourself. Western news agencies are quite anti Syrian government and are playing down the imminent loss of the city by the rebels and are concentrating on the civilian casualties instead.

Gatling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Best to read from several "news" sources, but you'll have to sort the facts from the propaganda yourself. Western news agencies are quite anti Syrian government and are playing down the imminent loss of the city by the rebels and are concentrating on the civilian casualties instead.

Most of the current reports are coming from Syrian and russian sources that they have Aleppo ,last time they publicly announced the city was sealed and ready to fall the government forces got pushed our again .

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it wasn't some part of a psyops operation to get rebel's to pull out of the city ,
But the disappearance of young men and boys who tried to escape , civillians been directly targeted and forced conscription is never a good sign .

A Little Pony

Assad is either a genius or a god awful commander in chief. I am amazed he hasn't destroyed this revolutionary uprising yet as he has the backing of Russia.

endacl

corner of hells wrote: »

I think it's a Syrian cornetto.

No. Thats a Caleppo.

Forced conscription probably explains why the Syrian army was driven out of Palmyra with such ease despite having Russian air support.

Gatling

A Little Pony wrote: »

Assad is either a genius or a god awful commander in chief. I am amazed he hasn't destroyed this revolutionary uprising yet as he has the backing of Russia.

Based off what exactly , till putin started Bombing everything and anything out side of the presidential palace it was game over for asssd ,

Gatling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Forced conscription probably explains why the Syrian army was driven out of Palmyra with such ease despite having Russian air support.

It's never a great idea if you want to defend a place of importance or larger tracts of a country against a determined enemy or enemies in this situation

ChikiChiki

Grayson wrote: »

Apparently the Syrian army are shooting civilians on the spot.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/13/red-cross-urgent-plea-to-save-civilians-aleppo-syria

Worryingly I don't believe know who or what to believe from the media anymore. I take it all with a pinch of salt. Such a cluster**** this whole war.

Yourself isit

Gatling wrote: »

Isis Retook Palmayra from the Syrian army that just legged it ,
It's safe to say this war will rage for several more years

And you being snti-Russian would welcome this of course.

Gatling

Yourself isit wrote: »

And you being snti-Russian would welcome this of course.

Wrong there,
but hey

jmayo

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Russia is backing the Government.

The US is backing the Rebels.

The government is a brutal dictatorship that the US was backing until it did a deal with Russia on oil.

The people are caught in the middle. The US will bugger off and the rebels will be wiped out and Russia will have another puppet friendly dictator next door.

Syria has been a Soviet/Russian ally for decades.
USSR/Russia has had naval base there for decades.
Their base in Tartus was originally to support the Soviet Navy fleet in the Mediterranean.
It is still used today and has increased in importance because most other countries bordering the Med are members of NATO.

Syria's government were never an ally of USA.
In fact they have historically been the enemy, much like Libya had been.

Syria was always seen as being ally of Iran, had been at war with Israel over many decades, had control over Lebanon and was backer of such groups as Hezbollah.

When Bush announced his axis of evil (Iran, North Korea and Iraq), the next level down included Cuba, Libya, and Syria.

Gatling wrote: »

...
The kurds will get their state some time in 2017 and turkey won't be leaving syria any time soon either .

The Turks will never allow a free Kurdistan to exist.
A free Kurdistan would encompass part of Northern/Eastern Syria, Northern Iraq and South Eastern Turkey.

If anything the Turks and Erodogan have been more interested in protecting ISIS in their fight with the Kurds.
It is a shame since the Kurds are the most enlightened ones in those parts, have women actually fighting and have introduced some true local government in their free areas.

A Little Pony wrote: »

Assad is either a genius or a god awful commander in chief. I am amazed he hasn't destroyed this revolutionary uprising yet as he has the backing of Russia.

Urban warfare is very difficult.
Why not ask the Americans ?
Unless you completely level a city (and the associated civilian cassulties) you are already at a disadvantage and even after you do level a city to rubble resistance can still fight on.
The Russians know that only too well learning it 70 odd years ago in the ruins of Leningrad and Stalingrad.

Ferrari3600

Morning Star describing the attacks as 'liberation' of Aleppo.

Just shows if you go far enough to the left the loonies there are as bad as the far right.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2016/12/no-aleppo-not-being-liberated-despite-what-morning-star-says

Didas

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

Morning Star describing the attacks as 'liberation' of Aleppo.

Just shows if you go far enough to the left the loonies there are as bad as the far right.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2016/12/no-aleppo-not-being-liberated-despite-what-morning-star-says

You know the terms left and right have completely lost all meaning, when someone tries to shove something as complex and multi-faceted as the Syrian Civil War into these two boxes.

Gatling

jmayo wrote: »

Urban warfare is very difficult.
Why not ask the Americans ?
Unless you completely level a city (and the associated civilian cassulties) you are already at a disadvantage and even after you do level a city to rubble resistance can still fight on.
The Russians know that only too well learning it 70 odd years ago in the ruins of Leningrad and Stalingrad.

More recently Chechnya twice where putin had to literally had to burn several cities to the ground to achieve a victory

jmayo

Gatling wrote: »

More recently Chechnya twice where putin had to literally had to burn several cities to the ground to achieve a victory

And actually that leads me to another reason Putin is so willing to get involved in backing Assad.
Russia has huge problem with muslim fundamentalists in the Caucasus region.
Russia has actually had numerous massive terrorist attacks, much more than some people in the West realise.

The last thing Russia needs is more states falling to and backing the spread of muslim fundamentalist ideologies.

Oodoov

The Russian's and the democratically elected leader of Syria president Assad have handed the jihadists in Aleppo their arses on a plate. A great day for freedom and a huge blow against the Obama administrations regime change programme in the region.

Killary Clinton 0 Assad 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipTltxCX_wY

Sweetemotion

Gatling wrote: »

He hasn't got the manpower to finish the war as it stands there forcing conscription on the people coming out of Aleppo and disappearing others ,
Assad has been bled dry ,he has russian bombing everything and anything and that's it,
The kurds will get their state some time in 2017 and turkey won't be leaving syria any time soon either .

The man power to fight who? RTE reporting today that they have regained 98% of Aleppo back from the "moderate rebels"

Obama and Hilary are finished, may they rot in hell for their war crimes.

Hopefully. Syria, becomes a secular state once more.

Gatling

jmayo wrote: »

And actually that leads me to another reason Putin is so willing to get involved in backing Assad.
Russia has huge problem with muslim fundamentalists in the Caucasus region.
Russia has actually had numerous massive terrorist attacks, much more than some people in the West realise.

The last thing Russia needs is more states falling to and backing the spread of muslim fundamentalist ideologies.

I Believe it's down to money nothing and nothing less ,
Russia is a regional power with nuclear weapons at best ,
Since the illegal Occupation of Crimea and East Ukraine their economy had nosed dived it was already in trouble with the low cost of oil and next to economic diversity ,
This wasn't two fingers to America or the world the involvement in Syria and cosying up to iran is a sales pitch for its weapons ,It's estimated there trying to flog 70bn worth of weapons globally to make up for the economic downturn ,
In saying they had india lined up to buy several squadrons of fighter jets to rebuild it's airforce but they turned about face and bought jets from France instead .

Junkyard Tom

The so-called 'mainstream' (pro-war, pro regime change) media has been taking a pasting lately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb0eOcWreH8