Aleppo

Gringo180

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The so-called 'mainstream' (pro-war, pro regime change) media has been taking a pasting lately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb0eOcWreH8

Wow. This is the reason why I dont trust western media/propaganda. They consistently continue to mislead the public.

The_Valeyard

This is far from over.

Isis will have another roll of the dice,

Turkey have not played their hand yet.

Saudi Arabia do not like to loose.

pure.conya

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Just a thought here, I figured I would bounce it around and see what you all think.

Are the actions of the Russian Military in Syria a deliberate attempt to get the west to retaliate?

We have all seen and heard what Putin thinks of the democratic west.

Am I jumping to conclusions? or is there something in what i say?

here's a copy of Putins speech in the UN last year

President of Russia Vladimir Putin:

Mr. President,

Mr. Secretary General,

Distinguished heads of state and government,

Ladies and gentlemen,

The 70th anniversary of the United Nations is a good occasion to both take stock of history and talk about our common future. In 1945, the countries that defeated Nazism joined their efforts to lay a solid foundation for the postwar world order. Let me remind you that key decisions on the principles defining interaction between states, as well as the decision to establish the UN, were made in our country, at the Yalta Conference of the leaders of the anti-Hitler coalition.

The Yalta system was truly born in travail. It was born at the cost of tens of millions of lives and two world wars that swept through the planet in the 20th century. Let’s be fair: it helped humankind pass through turbulent, and at times dramatic, events of the last seven decades. It saved the world from large-scale upheavals.

The United Nations is unique in terms of legitimacy, representation and universality.

The United Nations is unique in terms of legitimacy, representation and universality. True, the UN has been criticized lately for being inefficient or for the fact that decision-making on fundamental issues stalls due to insurmountable differences, especially among Security Council members.

However, I’d like to point out that there have always been differences in the UN throughout the 70 years of its history, and that the veto right has been regularly used by the United States, the United Kingdom, France, China and the Soviet Union, and later Russia. It is only natural for such a diverse and representative organization. When the UN was first established, nobody expected that there would always be unanimity. The mission of the organization is to seek and reach compromises, and its strength comes from taking different views and opinions into consideration. The decisions debated within the UN are either taken in the form of resolutions or not. As diplomats say, they either pass or they don’t. Any action taken by circumventing this procedure is illegitimate and constitutes a violation of the UN Charter and contemporary international law.

We all know that after the end of the Cold War the world was left with one center of dominance, and those who found themselves at the top of the pyramid were tempted to think that, since they are so powerful and exceptional, they know best what needs to be done and thus they don’t need to reckon with the UN, which, instead of rubber-stamping the decisions they need, often stands in their way.

That’s why they say that the UN has run its course and is now obsolete and outdated. Of course, the world changes, and the UN should also undergo natural transformation. Russia is ready to work together with its partners to develop the UN further on the basis of a broad consensus, but we consider any attempts to undermine the legitimacy of the United Nations as extremely dangerous. They may result in the collapse of the entire architecture of international relations, and then indeed there will be no rules left except for the rule of force. The world will be dominated by selfishness rather than collective effort, by dictate rather than equality and liberty, and instead of truly independent states we will have protectorates controlled from outside.

What is the meaning of state sovereignty, the term which has been mentioned by our colleagues here? It basically means freedom, every person and every state being free to choose their future.

By the way, this brings us to the issue of the so-called legitimacy of state authorities. You shouldn’t play with words and manipulate them. In international law, international affairs, every term has to be clearly defined, transparent and interpreted the same way by one and all.

We are all different, and we should respect that. Nations shouldn’t be forced to all conform to the same development model that somebody has declared the only appropriate one.

We should all remember the lessons of the past. For example, we remember examples from our Soviet past, when the Soviet Union exported social experiments, pushing for changes in other countries for ideological reasons, and this often led to tragic consequences and caused degradation instead of progress.

It seems, however, that instead of learning from other people’s mistakes, some prefer to repeat them and continue to export revolutions, only now these are “democratic” revolutions. Just look at the situation in the Middle East and Northern Africa already mentioned by the previous speaker. Of course, political and social problems have been piling up for a long time in this region, and people there wanted change. But what was the actual outcome? Instead of bringing about reforms, aggressive intervention rashly destroyed government institutions and the local way of life. Instead of democracy and progress, there is now violence, poverty, social disasters and total disregard for human rights, including even the right to life.

I’m urged to ask those who created this situation: do you at least realize now what you’ve done? But I’m afraid that this question will remain unanswered, because they have never abandoned their policy, which is based on arrogance, exceptionalism and impunity.

Power vacuum in some countries in the Middle East and Northern Africa obviously resulted in the emergence of areas of anarchy, which were quickly filled with extremists and terrorists. The so-called Islamic State has tens of thousands of militants fighting for it, including former Iraqi soldiers who were left on the street after the 2003 invasion. Many recruits come from Libya whose statehood was destroyed as a result of a gross violation of UN Security Council Resolution 1973. And now radical groups are joined by members of the so-called “moderate” Syrian opposition backed by the West. They get weapons and training, and then they defect and join the so-called Islamic State.

Power vacuum in some countries in the Middle East and Northern Africa obviously resulted in the emergence of areas of anarchy, which were quickly filled with extremists and terrorists.

In fact, the Islamic State itself did not come out of nowhere. It was initially developed as a weapon against undesirable secular regimes. Having established control over parts of Syria and Iraq, Islamic State now aggressively expands into other regions. It seeks dominance in the Muslim world and beyond. Their plans go further.

The situation is extremely dangerous. In these circumstances, it is hypocritical and irresponsible to make declarations about the threat of terrorism and at the same time turn a blind eye to the channels used to finance and support terrorists, including revenues from drug trafficking, the illegal oil trade and the arms trade.

It is equally irresponsible to manipulate extremist groups and use them to achieve your political goals, hoping that later you’ll find a way to get rid of them or somehow eliminate them.

I’d like to tell those who engage in this: Gentlemen, the people you are dealing with are cruel but they are not dumb. They are as smart as you are. So, it’s a big question: who’s playing who here? The recent incident where the most “moderate” opposition group handed over their weapons to terrorists is a vivid example of that.

We consider that any attempts to flirt with terrorists, let alone arm them, are short-sighted and extremely dangerous.

We consider that any attempts to flirt with terrorists, let alone arm them, are short-sighted and extremely dangerous. This may make the global terrorist threat much worse, spreading it to new regions around the globe, especially since there are fighters from many different countries, including European ones, gaining combat experience with Islamic State. Unfortunately, Russia is no exception.

Now that those thugs have tasted blood, we can’t allow them to return home and continue with their criminal activities. Nobody wants that, right?

Russia has consistently opposed terrorism in all its forms. Today, we provide military-technical assistance to Iraq, Syria and other regional countries fighting terrorist groups. We think it’s a big mistake to refuse to cooperate with the Syrian authorities and government forces who valiantly fight terrorists on the ground.

We should finally admit that President Assad’s government forces and the Kurdish militia are the only forces really fighting terrorists in Syria. Yes, we are aware of all the problems and conflicts in the region, but we definitely have to consider the actual situation on the ground.

What we propose is to join efforts to address the problems that all of us are facing, and create a genuinely broad international coalition against terrorism.

Dear colleagues, I must note that such an honest and frank approach on Russia's part has been recently used as a pretext for accusing it of its growing ambitions — as if those who say that have no ambitions at all. However, it is not about Russia's ambitions, dear colleagues, but about the recognition of the fact that we can no longer tolerate the current state of affairs in the world.

What we actually propose is to be guided by common values and common interests rather than by ambitions. Relying on international law, we must join efforts to address the problems that all of us are facing, and create a genuinely broad international coalition against terrorism. Similar to the anti-Hitler coalition, it could unite a broad range of parties willing to stand firm against those who, just like the Nazis, sow evil and hatred of humankind. And of course, Muslim nations should play a key role in such a coalition, since Islamic State not only poses a direct threat to them, but also tarnishes one of the greatest world religions with its atrocities. The ideologues of these extremists make a mockery of Islam and subvert its true humanist values.

I would also like to address Muslim spiritual leaders: Your authority and your guidance are of great importance right now. It is essential to prevent people targeted for recruitment by extremists from making hasty decisions, and those who have already been deceived and, due to various circumstances, found themselves among terrorists, must be assisted in finding a way back to normal life, laying down arms and putting an end to fratricide.

In the days to come, Russia, as the current President of the UN Security Council, will convene a ministerial meeting to carry out a comprehensive analysis of the threats in the Middle East. First of all, we propose exploring opportunities for adopting a resolution that would serve to coordinate the efforts of all parties that oppose Islamic State and other terrorist groups. Once again, such coordination should be based upon the principles of the UN Charter.

We hope that the international community will be able to develop a comprehensive strategy of political stabilization, as well as social and economic recovery in the Middle East. Then, dear friends, there would be no need for setting up more refugee camps. Today, the flow of people forced to leave their native land has literally engulfed, first, the neighbouring countries, and then Europe. There are hundreds of thousands of them now, and before long, there might be millions. It is, essentially, a new, tragic Migration Period, and a harsh lesson for all of us, including Europe.

I believe it is of utmost importance to help restore government institutions in Libya, support the new government of Iraq, and provide comprehensive assistance to the legitimate government of Syria.

I would like to stress that refugees undoubtedly need our compassion and support. However, the only way to solve this problem for good is to restore statehood where it has been destroyed, to strengthen government institutions where they still exist, or are being re-established, to provide comprehensive military, economic and material assistance to countries in a difficult situation, and certainly to people who, despite all their ordeals, did not abandon their homes. Of course, any assistance to sovereign nations can, and should, be offered rather than imposed, in strict compliance with the UN Charter. In other words, our Organisation should support any measures that have been, or will be, taken in this regard in accordance with international law, and reject any actions that are in breach of the UN Charter. Above all, I believe it is of utmost importance to help restore government institutions in Libya, support the new government of Iraq, and provide comprehensive assistance to the legitimate government of Syria.

Dear colleagues, ensuring peace and global and regional stability remains a key task for the international community guided by the United Nations. We believe this means creating an equal and indivisible security environment that would not serve a privileged few, but everyone. Indeed, it is a challenging, complicated and time-consuming task, but there is simply no alternative.

Sadly, some of our counterparts are still dominated by their Cold War-era bloc mentality and the ambition to conquer new geopolitical areas. First, they continued their policy of expanding NATO – one should wonder why, considering that the Warsaw Pact had ceased to exist and the Soviet Union had disintegrated.

The people of Donbas should have their rights and interests genuinely considered, and their choice respected; they should be engaged in devising the key elements of the country's political system, in line with the provisions of the Minsk agreements.

Nevertheless, NATO has kept on expanding, together with its military infrastructure. Next, the post-Soviet states were forced to face a false choice between joining the West and carrying on with the East. Sooner or later, this logic of confrontation was bound to spark off a major geopolitical crisis. And that is exactly what happened in Ukraine, where the people's widespread frustration with the government was used for instigating a coup d’état from abroad. This has triggered a civil war. We are convinced that the only way out of this dead end lies through comprehensive and diligent implementation of the Minsk agreements of February 12th, 2015. Ukraine's territorial integrity cannot be secured through the use of threats or military force, but it must be secured. The people of Donbas should have their rights and interests genuinely considered, and their choice respected; they should be engaged in devising the key elements of the country's political system, in line with the provisions of the Minsk agreements. Such steps would guarantee that Ukraine will develop as a civilized state, and a vital link in creating a common space of security and economic cooperation, both in Europe and in Eurasia.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have deliberately mentioned a common space for economic cooperation. Until quite recently, it seemed that we would learn to do without dividing lines in the area of the economy with its objective market laws, and act based on transparent and jointly formulated rules, including the WTO principles, which embrace free trade and investment and fair competition. However, unilaterally imposed sanctions circumventing the UN Charter have all but become commonplace today. They not only serve political objectives, but are also used for eliminating market competition.

I would like to note one more sign of rising economic selfishness. A number of nations have chosen to create exclusive economic associations, with their establishment being negotiated behind closed doors, secretly from those very nations' own public and business communities, as well as from the rest of the world. Other states, whose interests may be affected, have not been informed of anything, either. It seems that someone would like to impose upon us some new game rules, deliberately tailored to accommodate the interests of a privileged few, with the WTO having no say in it. This is fraught with utterly unbalancing global trade and splitting up the global economic space.

These issues affect the interests of all nations and influence the future of the entire global economy. That is why we propose discussing those issues within the framework of the United Nations, the WTO and the G20. Contrary to the policy of exclusion, Russia advocates harmonizing regional economic projects. I am referring to the so-called ”integration of integrations“ based on the universal and transparent rules of international trade. As an example, I would like to cite our plans to interconnect the Eurasian Economic Union with China's initiative for creating a Silk Road economic belt. We continue to see great promise in harmonizing the integration vehicles between the Eurasian Economic Union and the European Union.

Ladies and gentlemen, one more issue that shall affect the future of the entire humankind is climate change. It is in our interest to ensure that the coming UN Climate Change Conference that will take place in Paris in December this year should deliver some feasible results. As part of our national contribution, we plan to limit greenhouse gas emissions to 70–75 percent of the 1990 levels by the year 2030.

However, I suggest that we take a broader look at the issue. Admittedly, we may be able to defuse it for a while by introducing emission quotas and using other tactical measures, but we certainly will not solve it for good that way. What we need is an essentially different approach, one that would involve introducing new, groundbreaking, nature-like technologies that would not damage the environment, but rather work in harmony with it, enabling us to restore the balance between the biosphere and technology upset by human activities.

We propose convening a special forum under the auspices of the UN to comprehensively address issues related to the depletion of natural resources, habitat destruction, and climate change.

It is indeed a challenge of global proportions. And I am confident that humanity does have the necessary intellectual capacity to respond to it. We need to join our efforts, primarily engaging countries that possess strong research and development capabilities, and have made significant advances in fundamental research. We propose convening a special forum under the auspices of the UN to comprehensively address issues related to the depletion of natural resources, habitat destruction, and climate change. Russia is willing to co-sponsor such a forum.

Ladies and gentlemen, dear colleagues. On January 10th, 1946, the UN General Assembly convened for its first meeting in London. Chairman of the Preparatory Commission Dr. Zuleta Angel, a Colombian diplomat, opened the session by offering what I see as a very concise definition of the principles that the United Nations should be based upon, which are good will, disdain for scheming and trickery, and a spirit of cooperation. Today, his words sound like guidance for all of us.

Russia is confident of the United Nations' enormous potential, which should help us avoid a new confrontation and embrace a strategy of cooperation. Hand in hand with other nations, we will consistently work to strengthen the UN's central, coordinating role. I am convinced that by working together, we will make the world stable and safe, and provide an enabling environment for the development of all nations and peoples.

Thank you.

pure.conya

ricero wrote: »

The arab spring seems to have made the world a worse and more unstable place. Look at the mess that Libya is in now. Say what you want about gaddafi but he ran a tight ship. Sooner Assad gains back control the better

the war mongers made an awful lot of money from the mess they carefully and all too easily created

Jelle1880

The_Valeyard wrote: »

This is far from over.

Isis will have another roll of the dice,

Turkey have not played their hand yet.

Saudi Arabia do not like to loose.

True. The FSA are still moving south, with support of Turkey.

Basically what happened now is that Aleppo is indeed freed from the 'rebels', but they were for large parts allowed to retreat back to their territories. No doubt they'll try to hit back soon.

While the people of Aleppo no doubt are safer now, it's basically just going to shift the fighting to other areas of the country.

As can be seen on the map below, they still hold large parts of the areas and will no doubt simply head to Idlib for example, to recover and start fighting again.
http://syria.liveuamap.com/

Wanderer78

For starters, there's no such thing as 'the democratic west' and all involved in Syria have absolutely no interest in the needs of the syrians including 'the democratic west'. I wish the people of Syria the very best, we truly are a dreadful species

Oodoov

Gringo180 wrote: »

Wow. This is the reason why I dont trust western media/propaganda. They consistently continue to mislead the public.

I've always found Reuters to hold a fair unbalanced view point throughout the years for reporting the facts but that alas is sadly lost also. Unfortunately the main stream news media has limitless resources and 99% of people just watch RTE, Sky, CNN etc.. and believe what they are hearing. Just a cursory glance at any average Joe's or Jane's facebook page and you would be lead to believe Putin is Hitler 2 and the poor unfortunate "moderate rebels" are the Walton's reincarnated.

Sad but a lot of these sorts are unable or unwilling to do some research on the conflict themselves and form their own opinion because that's what one should be doing now as MSM can not be trusted anymore.

Elmer Blooker

Oodoov wrote: »

I've always found Reuters to hold a fair unbalanced view point throughout the years for reporting the facts but that alas is sadly lost also. Unfortunately the main stream news media has limitless resources and 99% of people just watch RTE, Sky, CNN etc.. and believe what they are hearing. Just a cursory glance at any average Joe's or Jane's facebook page and you would be lead to believe Putin is Hitler 2 and the poor unfortunate "moderate rebels" are the Walton's reincarnated.

Sad but a lot of these sorts are unable or unwilling to do some research on the conflict themselves and form their own opinion because that's what one should be doing now as MSM can not be trusted anymore.

The propaganda coming from RTE has been RELENTLESS over the last 24 hours and not a single source has been named. Its all "there are reports" ... "a source in Aleppo says ..." and so on.

The fact that the UN is involved in this propaganda orgy and basically ignores a much worse humanitarian crisis in Yemen says it all about the direction that the organisation has taken which is tragic. It has no longer has any credibility as far as I'm concerned.

Jelle1880

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The propaganda coming from RTE has been RELENTLESS over the last 24 hours and not a single source has been named. Its all "there are reports" ... "a source in Aleppo says ..." and so on.

The fact that the UN is involved in this propaganda orgy and basically ignores a much worse humanitarian crisis in Yemen says it all about the direction that the organisation has taken which is tragic. It has no longer has any credibility as far as I'm concerned.

As far as I know the UN doesn't ignore Yemen at all, the latest update is from yesterday about the imminent danger of millions of children dying of starvation.

But it just seem as if the media don't seem to care, many of them probably don't know who is fighting who.

Oodoov

Jelle1880 wrote: »

As far as I know the UN doesn't ignore Yemen at all, the latest update is from yesterday about the imminent danger of millions of children dying of starvation.

But it just seem as if the media don't seem to care, many of them probably don't know who is fighting who.

They know but big bad Russia isnt involved so they don't give a hoot, or at least they are told not to give a hoot. To think these people refer to themselves as journalists and then they have the neck to call RT a mouthpiece for Putin (which it very much is) and ignore the agenda they themselves promote.

Elmer Blooker

Jelle1880 wrote: »

As far as I know the UN doesn't ignore Yemen at all, the latest update is from yesterday about the imminent danger of millions of children dying of starvation.

But it just seem as if the media don't seem to care, many of them probably don't know who is fighting who.

Yes, you're right. Perhaps I'm being over critical of the UN.
Its the media that is covering up the crimes committed in Yemen because we all know who's arming the Saudis to do their dirty work.

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The propaganda coming from RTE has been RELENTLESS over the last 24 hours and not a single source has been named. Its all "there are reports" ... "a source in Aleppo says ..." and so on.

But elmer your part of a serial denial club unless it comes from the Kremlin news Sputnik or rt you claim it's lies ,

TerrorFirmer

There's a big difference between 'not reporting on' and 'covering up'. The same thing happened with Ukraine, it's virtually completely ignored as if the situation doesn't exist - the news world has moved on to more exciting news, for want of a better word. Syria is interesting to the average person for a multitude of reasons - the intervention of external powers, Islamic state, the wider stakes, etc.

Most people are not particularly interested in Yemen although it is not being ignored either, virtually all news outlets, be they print or broadcast, do discuss it albeit to a much, much smaller extent.

I also don't think it's fair to label all western coverage of Syria as 'propaganda' either. They're just reporting the facts of what's being alleged, be it true or untrue. They also write stories around claims made by the Syrian Government and feature quotes atrributable to the Government.

Most people, even those who exclusively watch localised/wider western media, support the Syrian Government and Russian intervention at this point.

If it's all 'propaganda' it's the world's worst.

nacho libre

So 4,000 isis fighters managed to escape Mosul, which is surrounded, and march across the Syrian desert to Palmyra without the US noticing. Pull the other one. No one is bothering to question this in the western media. With this in mind will we see any follow up on the seven year old tweeting from eastern Aleppo? Convenient how she happen to have internet access and time to tweet...
No doubt another fake new story/ psych op, much like the gay girl of Damascus blog. I wonder did Hillary have this in mind when she spoke about the damage fake news does.

By the way back when Al Nusra/Al Qaeda were persona non grata, the US and Britian, when they were outsourcing torture, a few terrorists( now repackaged as freedom loving rebels of eastern Aleppo) were tortured in Syrian jails. So there was a working relationship between Assad and the West at the time.

Jelle1880

nacho libre wrote: »

So 4,000 isis fighters managed to escape Mosul, which is surrounded, and march across the Syrian desert to Palmyra without the US noticing. Pull the other one. No one is bothering to question this in the western media. With this in mind will we see any follow up on the seven year old tweeting from eastern Aleppo? Convenient how she happen to have internet access and time to tweet...
No doubt another fake new story/ psych op, much like the gay girl of Damascus blog. I wonder did Hillary have this in mind when she spoke about the damage fake news does.

By the way back when Al Nusra/Al Qaeda were persona non grata, the US and Britian, when they were outsourcing torture, a few terrorists( now repackaged as freedom loving rebels of eastern Aleppo) were tortured in Syrian jails. So there was a working relationship between Assad and the West at the time.

Where did you see that 4000 fighters managed to escape ? Mosul was completely surrounded, the only way that could have happened is if the Shia militias/Iraqi army let them escape or if they somehow slipped out among the civilian refugees.

Blaming the US for that makes no sense.

Hande hoche!

nacho libre wrote: »

So 4,000 isis fighters managed to escape Mosul, which is surrounded, and march across the Syrian desert to Palmyra without the US noticing. Pull the other one. No one is bothering to question this in the western media. With this in mind will we see any follow up on the seven year old tweeting from eastern Aleppo? Convenient how she happen to have internet access and time to tweet...
No doubt another fake new story/ psych op, much like the gay girl of Damascus blog. I wonder did Hillary have this in mind when she spoke about the damage fake news does.

By the way back when Al Nusra/Al Qaeda were persona non grata, the US and Britian, when they were outsourcing torture, a few terrorists( now repackaged as freedom loving rebels of eastern Aleppo) were tortured in Syrian jails. So there was a working relationship between Assad and the West at the time.

There were those famous photos of Kerry and the Assads dining together.

Gatling

nacho libre wrote: »

So 4,000 isis fighters managed to escape Mosul, which is surrounded, and march across the Syrian desert to Palmyra without the .

Syrians , Iranians,hizbollah,russians not noticing there the ones who had Aleppo completely surrounded for the last few years ,

Odd that .

HensVassal

Grayson wrote: »

Depends on how you describe "safe"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3371675/Bombed-houses-rubble-far-eye-apocalyptic-landscape-remains-one-region-Syrian-capital-Damascus.html

Best information is from people on the ground. I met a Syrian couple in Belgium last week and they describe Damascus as pretty safe with the markets and shops and theatres all open and busy.

The Daily Mail images are probably random shots of Baghdad or Fallujah that they just tried to fob off. It wouldn't be the first time the Mail has printed doctored or fake photographs. Here's a photo essay of Damascus 2016:

http://www.mintpressnews.com/damascus-life-returns-5-years-after-nato-destabilization-efforts/218601/

HensVassal

Grayson wrote: »

I hate to agree, because Assad is a scumbag but you might be right. It's like choosing cancer or ebola.

70% of Syrians would disagree with you.

Grayson

HensVassal wrote: »

Best information is from people on the ground. I met a Syrian couple in Belgium last week and they describe Damascus as pretty safe with the markets and shops and theatres all open and busy.

The Daily Mail images are probably random shots of Baghdad or Fallujah that they just tried to fob off. It would be the first time the Mail has printed doctored or fake photographs. Here's a photo essay of Damascus 2016:

http://www.mintpressnews.com/damascus-life-returns-5-years-after-nato-destabilization-efforts/218601/

So there was no violence in Damascus and there's no ongoing attacks there?

HensVassal

Gatling wrote: »

And yet it's described as some Syrian utopia untouched by war

The Syrians I've met and have spoken to, you know, who are actually from there can confirm that life is relatively normal in Damascus.

Yet you from the confines of your bedroom 2000 miles away seem to know better.

HensVassal

Son Of A Vidic wrote: »

The same America that spent $500 million dollars training 50 moderate rebels, who then subsequently defected when they clashed with Al Nusra/Al Qaeda during their first armed action. And being the great bunch of lads that they were, they immediately defected and joined up with their jihadi brothers. But America has a historical habit and previous form for 'accidentally' arming extreme jihadi terrorist groups.

I wanted Assad out in 2011, but the fúcked up American policy of arming extremists masquerading as so-called moderates and seeing how the Libya was returned to the stone age by western incompetence & meddling, soon changed my opinion. I still want Assad to go, but first I want to see the extermination of the likes of Al Nusra and such vermin that America have been desperately helping. Syria was once a secular society and such Jiahdi scum mustn't be allowed to prevail and turn it into Libya 2.0.

The Russians predicted back in 2011, that the moderate Free Syrian Army would be brushed aside, become mostly an irrelevance and Syria would become a hotbed & breeding ground for the likes of Al Nusra and Daesh. The arming of these so called 'moderates' by the West and the heavy backing from the medieval regimes of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, has only intensified, prolonged and turned Syria into a bloodbath. Many in the Syrian army owe no allegiance to Assad, but many see their fight as a last stand to stopping Syria becoming the new Libya or raqqa. So afaic, we need the elimination of the Islamist fanatics first and then we can focus on Assad's removal & transition.

Unfortunately though, once again America hasn't helped matters because they seem to have conveniently suspending token operations against Daesh in Raqqa and this has allowed Daesh to target Palmyra again with an estimated 4,000 fighters. Amazing how the most monitored piece of real estate by American intelligence, seems to have missed such a large force of terrorist moving across a flat, sandy, barren landscape. The same intelligence agencies that somehow missed the thousands of Daesh oil tankers that were passing unhindered in massive convoys through Turkish border posts. The Russian Air Force were baffled by how American drones and satellite surveillance failed to spot them, especially considering how long they were operating in the region before the Russians arrived.

The one positive I can see is, Trump will end the hypocritical nonsense of the current administration speaking out of both sides of its mouth and their duplicitous activities in Syria. I believe he will do business with Russia and I think they will join forces the way Russia has already suggested and they will eliminate the filth of Al Nusra & Daesh. Now the warmongering neocons and Cold War 2.0 aspirationists won't be happy by all of that, but the people of Syria will be and that's all that matters.

Why do you want Assad to "go"? Who are you to decide what's good for the Syrian people? Assad enjoys 70+% popularity among his people yet you think you know what's best for them?

Don't fall for the propaganda. Get online and find out for yourself how popular Assad is. Go onto Syrian forums and chat rooms and talk to Syrian people.

Grayson

HensVassal wrote: »

The Syrians I've met and have spoken to, you know, who are actually from there can confirm that life is relatively normal in Damascus.

Yet you from the confines of your bedroom 2000 miles away seem to know better.

I'm going by news reports in every single paper. Google it. Al-Nusra took over large suburbs in Damascus. They held it until very recently and there's still bombings going on there.

Of course you can choose to believe two people you met on holidays rather than thousands of news reports but that would be silly wouldn't it.

robbiezero

Wanderer78 wrote: »

For starters, there's no such thing as 'the democratic west' and all involved in Syria have absolutely no interest in the needs of the syrians including 'the democratic west'. I wish the people of Syria the very best, we truly are a dreadful species

Speak for yourself. Most of us are grand.

HensVassal

Gatling wrote: »

He hasn't got the manpower to finish the war as it stands there forcing conscription on the people coming out of Aleppo and disappearing others ,
Assad has been bled dry ,he has russian bombing everything and anything and that's it,
The kurds will get their state some time in 2017 and turkey won't be leaving syria any time soon either .

This just shows how detached from reality you are. There is no way in Hell that Erdogan will stand for the creation of a Kurdish state. They are currently fighting to prevent it.

HensVassal

Grayson wrote: »

Depends. People in the west seem to think that moderate muslims would massacre everyone else. If you want a good example of a similar situation then take a look at Lebanon. In Lebanon everyone went bat sh1t crazy. Most of the worst violence was committed by christian militias but no religious/ethic group was without blood on their hands.

The Sabra and Shantilla massacres are a good example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre


(Edit: I'd recommend reading Pity the Nation by Robert Fisk. The politics of the country make Northern Ireland or Game of thrones look simplistic)

The Sabra and Shatilla massacres were conducted by none other than one Ariel Sharon. The Phalangists may have pulled the triggers but it was orchestrated by Israel whose tanks surrounded the camps and then whose allies were sent in to carry out the slaughter.

nacho libre

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Where did you see that 4000 fighters managed to escape ? Mosul was completely surrounded, the only way that could have happened is if the Shia militias/Iraqi army let them escape or if they somehow slipped out among the civilian refugees.

Blaming the US for that makes no sense.

That makes no sense either. How could 4,000 just slip out with refugees to engage in a military operation. Did they pick up their heavy weaponry at a rendezvous point along the way?

Secondly the shia militia are pro Iranian, which are fighting on Assad's side in Syria. There is no way they would allow them to escape. Also even if what you said were true, surely American drones/ spy planes , special forces on the ground, would have noticed such a mass move movement of fighters...

Elmer Blooker

HensVassal wrote: »

The Syrians I've met and have spoken to, you know, who are actually from there can confirm that life is relatively normal in Damascus.

This is a very interesting 2013 report from Damascus by BBC correspondent Lyse Doucet. At 1.00 she says: " ... these teenagers are fortunate to live in a safe government controlled area ... they thank Assad for keeping them safe"
Such a comment would never be allowed now on the BBC, it would promptly be removed by the censors! These residents of Damascus seen on the video no longer exist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73NqHnn-6dQ

Gatling

HensVassal wrote: »

The Syrians I've met

Ohh yeah of course bull****

TerrorFirmer

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

This is a very interesting 2013 report from Damascus by BBC correspondent Lyse Doucet. At 1.00 she says: " ... these teenagers are fortunate to live in a safe government controlled area ... they thank Assad for keeping them safe"
Such a comment would never be allowed now on the BBC, it would promptly be removed by the censors! These residents of Damascus seen on the video no longer exist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73NqHnn-6dQ

Comments like that can and still do appear on BBC and other news outlets. Sky news had footage yesterday of Syrians in the streets cheering and holding up pictures of Assad.

This idea that western media is attempting to portray Assad as deeply unpopular is frankly not really based on anything.

Gatling

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Comments like that can and still do appear on BBC and other news outlets. Sky news had footage yesterday of Syrians in the streets cheering and holding up pictures of Assad.

This idea that western media is attempting to portray Assad as deeply unpopular is frankly not really based on anything.

It's an attempt to even the scores when posters are caught peddling misinformation and propaganda ,
By saying that the msm media is portraying one thing but yet they end contradicting themselves when people cheering assad are shown in videos ,

Doeant make sense at all

jmayo

nacho libre wrote: »

That makes no sense either. How could 4,000 just slip out with refugees to engage in a military operation. Did they pick up their heavy weaponry at a rendezvous point along the way?
...
Also even if what you said were true, surely American drones/ spy planes , special forces on the ground, would have noticed such a mass move movement of fighters...

Well they used to also miss the line of oil tanker trucks crossing into Turkey with ISIS oil, the trucks coming the other way with refining equipment, or the ISIS fighters transitioning through Turkish territory in order to fight Kurds.

listermint

This whole thread is like a bunch of Facebook posts shouting over each other. The term MSM is one of the latest ones to come out of this nonsense literally in the last month it appeared by people who seem to think they are enlightened if they link an RT youtube video post.

Here is a fact for you the US and Russia couldnt give a ballax about Syria or the people in it. RT are a propaganda machine and many Western style networks the same. Neither side is holier than now and pointing the finger at one side whilst refusing to awknowledge the other makes you a complete idiot.

War is ridiculous Mankind is ridiculous We are ridiculous.


Congratulations everyone! no one wins.

Jelle1880

nacho libre wrote: »

That makes no sense either. How could 4,000 just slip out with refugees to engage in a military operation. Did they pick up their heavy weaponry at a rendezvous point along the way?

Secondly the shia militia are pro Iranian, which are fighting on Assad's side in Syria. There is no way they would allow them to escape. Also even if what you said were true, surely American drones/ spy planes , special forces on the ground, would have noticed such a mass move movement of fighters...

That's actually my point: There is nothing to prove that 4000 fighters escaped, unless the surrounding of Mosul isn't really that well done with wide gaps between the forces.

HensVassal

Deleted User wrote: »

Forced conscription probably explains why the Syrian army was driven out of Palmyra with such ease despite having Russian air support.

Could someone please explain what "forced conscription" is? Is that as opposed to "voluntary" conscription?

One: "You are hereby ordered to fight!", whereas the other: "You are hereby ordered to fight, but you don't have to!"

Oodoov

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Where did you see that 4000 fighters managed to escape ? Mosul was completely surrounded, the only way that could have happened is if the Shia militias/Iraqi army let them escape or if they somehow slipped out among the civilian refugees.

Blaming the US for that makes no sense.

Who do you think controls the Shia terrorists and Iraqi army. Santa Claus?

Jelle1880

Oodoov wrote: »

Who do you think controls the Shia terrorists and Iraqi army. Santa Claus?

Well, many of the Shia militias around Mosul are Iran-backed.

Not a clue what this has to do with my post though, I was merely calling out someone who claimed that 4000 fighters escaped and somehow the US let them ? Despite the US not being the ones surrounding the city.

HensVassal

What I find interesting is that there is conscription in Syria for young men and university students. This has resulted in large numbers of this demographic to flee the country rather than die in battle.
Of course then you get all these muppets screaming "Why are the refugees all military aged single males? They must be ISIS operatives, waaahhhhhh"

:rolleyes:

Oodoov

listermint wrote: »

This whole thread is like a bunch of Facebook posts shouting over each other. The term MSM is one of the latest ones to come out of this nonsense literally in the last month it appeared by people who seem to think they are enlightened if they link an RT youtube video post.

Here is a fact for you the US and Russia couldnt give a ballax about Syria or the people in it. RT are a propaganda machine and many Western style networks the same. Neither side is holier than now and pointing the finger at one side whilst refusing to awknowledge the other makes you a complete idiot.

War is ridiculous Mankind is ridiculous We are ridiculous.


Congratulations everyone! no one wins.

Yes the term MSM has only come out the last month or so (not) and i don't think anyone is saying either side are angels and the defenders of the realm or anything like that. RT are as bad as Sky news or CNN they all have an agenda. I think the point posters are making is it would be nice if the news networks actually reported on the news with a degree of balance be that western or Russian MSM.

If people don't question what they hear then they are part of the problem also.

HensVassal

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

Morning Star describing the attacks as 'liberation' of Aleppo.

Just shows if you go far enough to the left the loonies there are as bad as the far right.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2016/12/no-aleppo-not-being-liberated-despite-what-morning-star-says

And what would you have referred to Aleppo or any other Syrian city before this whole terrorist war started 5 years ago?

The "besieged city of Aleppo"?, the "occupied city of Damascus"?

Oodoov

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Well, many of the Shia militias around Mosul are Iran-backed.

Not a clue what this has to do with my post though, I was merely calling out someone who claimed that 4000 fighters escaped and somehow the US let them ? Despite the US not being the ones surrounding the city.

The US don't have an army surrounding the city no but i am sure they will have military assets on the ground directing operations. The war ending and Assad winning for them is a big loss. They want this conflict to end on their terms and they couldnt give a s h it how many kids, women or men die in that process.

Jelle1880

Oodoov wrote: »

The US don't have an army surrounding the city no but i am sure they will have military assets on the ground directing operations. The war ending and Assad winning for them is a big loss. They want this conflict to end on their terms and they couldnt give a s h it how many kids, women or men die in that process.

Again, that's not my point. nacho libre said 4000 escaped without anyone supposedly knowing, implying the US let them go.

However there is nothing to indicate this happened. Especially since somewhere between 4000 and 8000 fighters were in Mosul, so somewhere between 50 and 100% of them escaped ? I call bollocks. Not to mention that many of the Shia militias surrounding Mosul are Iran-backed and have absolutely no love for the US.

That all has nothing to do with whether the US want the war to end on their terms, it's merely questioning an unfounded claim.

HensVassal

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The so-called 'mainstream' (pro-war, pro regime change) media has been taking a pasting lately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb0eOcWreH8

Could have told you this 10 years ago.

HensVassal

Gringo180 wrote: »

Wow. This is the reason why I dont trust western media/propaganda. They consistently continue to mislead the public.

And those "White Helmets" with their staged "rescues" with the same kids and fake blood and dirt......absolute schoolboy howlers how the media try to sell those assholes as humanitarian aid workers.

Arghus

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The so-called 'mainstream' (pro-war, pro regime change) media has been taking a pasting lately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb0eOcWreH8

That's an interesting video, but I don't think it proves anything, ultimately.

Obviously the Western media is inaccurate and biased when it comes to reporting on Syria, but let's not pretend that each side isn't spinning away and obscuring the facts also.

The reporter in question who gives the speech in the video, reports from the area for Russia Today. Surely they would also qualify as a biased news source, no? She raises some interesting points, but I'm confident she has her own agenda too - everyone does. That is not to say that she should be disregarded completely, but that her claims should be treated with the same amount of skepticism that you would view the other side of the debate.

kowloon

s4uv3 wrote: »

What's an Aleppo?

I could be wrong, but I believe it's an old wooden ship that was used during the civil war era.

HensVassal

nacho libre wrote: »

So 4,000 isis fighters managed to escape Mosul, which is surrounded, and march across the Syrian desert to Palmyra without the US noticing. Pull the other one. No one is bothering to question this in the western media. With this in mind will we see any follow up on the seven year old tweeting from eastern Aleppo? Convenient how she happen to have internet access and time to tweet...
No doubt another fake new story/ psych op, much like the gay girl of Damascus blog. I wonder did Hillary have this in mind when she spoke about the damage fake news does.

By the way back when Al Nusra/Al Qaeda were persona non grata, the US and Britian, when they were outsourcing torture, a few terrorists( now repackaged as freedom loving rebels of eastern Aleppo) were tortured in Syrian jails. So there was a working relationship between Assad and the West at the time.

And an eloquence and command of the English language that would put an adult native english speaker to shame. :pac:

Gatling

HensVassal wrote: »

And an eloquence and command of the English language that would put an adult native english speaker to shame. :pac:

By that claim surely pro putins on here couldn't type a sentence in English,

Some people just make me laugh

Jelle1880

HensVassal wrote: »

And an eloquence and command of the English language that would put an adult native english speaker to shame. :pac:

Isn't the story that her mother is an English teacher, and often posts on the account too ?

HensVassal

Grayson wrote: »

So there was no violence in Damascus and there's no ongoing attacks there?

I didn't say that. But the Daily Mail is posting photos of moonscapes as if the whole city of Damascus was obiterated and now resembles Nagasaki circa Sept 1945 when evidence shows otherwise.