Have you ever been to Northern Ireland?

Widdershins

Clearly, it's far from history......

Didas

A Little Pony wrote: »

Only a Catholic can be Pope which is worse than the Orange Order because the Catholic Church has a much bigger say in the world.

"Our scum are better than your scum"

I can't believe there's still people hanging on to this crap.

getzls

steddyeddy wrote: »

I've been quite a bit. Some nice people and some not so much. People aside, driving through an area decked in flags reeks of insecurity to me. Things like that put me off.

As a Northerner I could say the same when a County GAA game is upcoming.
Those flegs flying everywhere and from cars are very upsetting.
Though guess it's just tradition.

Didas

getzls wrote: »

As a Northerner I could say the same when a County GAA game is upcoming.
Those flegs flying everywhere and from cars are very upsetting.
Though guess it's just tradition.

Putting flags up when a sporting team representing the area has a big game coming up, is not the same as painting kerbs and flying the tricolour or the union jack all year round.

getzls

Deleted User wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Is the head of the Catholic Church a sectarian institution?

The head of any institution is obviously not a 'sectarian institution'. But the RCC, like every religious body, is obviously a sectarian institution under the definition 'narrowly confined or devoted to a particular sect.' Although I don't know of any Catholic who has been expelled from the RCC for marrying a Protestant, while the reverse is still true of the OO in 2016.

Yes but the OO is a fraternity with about 30000 members.
Can't be compared to the RCC

getzls

Tonygun.
Is it because it's OK for one side to do so but not themuns?
Or just because you say so.

getzls

getzls wrote: »

Tonygun.
Is it because it's OK for one side to do so but not themuns?
Or just because you say so.

Also other colours are available.

Didas

getzls wrote: »

Tonygun.
Is it because it's OK for one side to do so but not themuns?
Or just because you say so.

What? I clearly stated the flying of tricolours and union jacks all year round are equal.

Neither is the same as flying the colours of sport team representing the area, be it GAA, soccer or rugby, at the time of big match.
The former is a symptom of division in NI, the later is standard sporting practice the world over.

Johnny Macwilliams

No but plan to this xmas, do the Antrim coastal drive. See the local sights.

Junkyard Tom

getzls wrote: »

Those flegs flying everywhere and from cars are very upsetting.

What 'upsets' you is that they represent the followers/teams of a sporting organisation that doesn't not care that the northeast of Ireland is currently under UK jurisdiction.

You'll also note that the nine county Ulster Rugby team is similar and that Ulster Rugby players, regardless of religion, play for Ireland internationally.

You can't handle the fact that soft-unification of Ireland is happening day-by-day all around you. Get used to it, it's your future.

getzls

Johnny Macwilliams wrote: »

No but plan to this xmas, do the Antrim coastal drive. See the local sights.

Some lovely weekend pubs in Cushendall.
I stayed in a campsite there last summer.
Warning!! The place is full of tourists

Del.Monte

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

What 'upsets' you is that they represent the followers/teams of a sporting organisation that doesn't not care that the northeast of Ireland is currently under UK jurisdiction.

You'll also note that the nine county Ulster Rugby team is similar and that Ulster Rugby players, regardless of religion, play for Ireland internationally.

You can't handle the fact that soft-unification of Ireland is happening day-by-day all around you. Get used to it, it's your future.

The Irish rugby team has always been an 'all-island' team and it has nothing to do with soft-unification. Get used to it.

Junkyard Tom

Del.Monte wrote: »

The Irish rugby team has always been an 'all-island' team and it has nothing to do with soft-unification. Get used to it.

The fans travelling between the provinces and coming together to support the national team is all part of it. The non-existent border, the devolved 6-county administration, the one-way direction of the GFA, the corralling of the hate-parades. Arlene and the DUP shitting themselves after the pro-Brexit vote..

It's a one way street.

Deal with it. :cool:

Johnny Macwilliams

Karl is wound up.

Stasi 2.0

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Arlene and the DUP shitting themselves after the pro-Brexit vote..

Would this be the same Arlene and the DUP who campaigned for a leave vote ?

Junkyard Tom

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

Would this be the same Arlene and the DUP who campaigned for a leave vote ?

Yes. It was a vote to out-British the UUP that they thought they wouldn't have to deal with the consequences of. The DUP's bitter pseudo-British nationalism has done more to accelerate the date of a UI than the PIRA bombing campaign in Britain the 1990's imho.

davycc

I have family in fermagh so I try visit every month.
We are from a southern republican background.an atheist family.

I have been to almost every county and town in the north and made friends in most communities.

I love going for hike's around the mournes and fishing\camping. the lough's at Enniskillen, I even play soccer every week with a bunch of loyalists' and rangers fans you would not want to be a delicate chap with the stick flying around!

A Little Pony

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

getzls wrote: »

Those flegs flying everywhere and from cars are very upsetting.

What 'upsets' you is that they represent the followers/teams of a sporting organisation that doesn't not care that the northeast of Ireland is currently under UK jurisdiction.

You'll also note that the nine county Ulster Rugby team is similar and that Ulster Rugby players, regardless of religion, play for Ireland internationally.

You can't handle the fact that soft-unification of Ireland is happening day-by-day all around you. Get used to it, it's your future.

More delusions from yourself. Hint, they are sports players, they enjoy playing sport. They aren't some Republican covert operation.

steddyeddy

Del.Monte wrote: »

Well I doubt that you will find many Catholics or Muslims that are Orangemen/Unionists, so who makes up the the contingents marching on the 12th?

My point is that the Orange Order aren't exactly the pinnacle of Protestantism and having a problem with them doesn't mean having a problem with being protestant. Most Protestants would have nothing to do with the Orange Order.

midnight city

Deleted User wrote: »

Spare a thought too for poor Anne Marie Smyth, a mother of two children who was just a bit too trusting of some other women that she met on a trip to Belfast in 1992. Although forgotten by most people now, her death was easily one of the most evil murders of the entire Troubles. Just when you might think your Catholic background is incidental you will encounter ineffable hatred precisely because of it. There's a raw poisonous hatred of Catholics (and that obviously includes all the former Catholics) there that is never too far from the surface. Be wary, very wary.

That was a terrible case, she ended up in a loyalist football club bar with 2 girls and when they found out she was catholic one of the girls. Michelle Thompson who was only 20 at the time. Decided she was going to get her back to a house in east Belfast for a rompering. Really shocking level of hatred for a then 20 year old. Anne Marie was beaten to death up in one of the bedrooms. Michelle and the other girl went up half way through to have a look at what she was going through. The 2nd girl came downstairs after it ashen faced but Michelle was laughing. That was in 1992. The two girls got less than 2 years each for their role in the murder. I wonder what Michelle is doing now and if she has any guilt. She is about 44 now.

There is no doubt those hatreds are still there under the surface up there. Anyone can pass themselves off as polite so i wouldn't think because you are treated reasonably well when you visit that some of them aren't nasty bigots underneath. You always need to be weary who you are dealing with. The days of rompering are gone thankfully. But there is still danger if you wander into the wrong bar or party.

Goya

midnight city wrote: »

That was a terrible case, she ended up in a loyalist football club bar with 2 girls and when they found out she was catholic one of the girls. Michelle Thompson who was only 20 at the time. Decided she was going to get her back to a house in east Belfast for a rompering. Really shocking level of hatred for a then 20 year old. Anne Marie was beaten to death up in one of the bedrooms. Michelle and the other girl went up half way through to have a look at what she was going through. The 2nd girl came downstairs after it ashen faced but Michelle was laughing. That was in 1992. The two girls got less than 2 years each for their role in the murder. I wonder what Michelle is doing now and if she has any guilt. She is about 44 now.

There is no doubt those hatreds are still there under the surface up there. Anyone can pass themselves off as polite so i wouldn't think because you are treated reasonably well when you visit that some of them aren't nasty bigots underneath. You always need to be weary who you are dealing with. The days of rompering are gone thankfully. But there is still danger if you wander into the wrong bar or party.

Good Christ...

And then you get nutter posts here (although I don't think they should be engaged with as they're just trying to provoke) maintaining the conflict was entirely republican orchestrated.

Meanwhile, normal informed people acknowledge there was rotten murdering scum on both sides and that the root of the conflict was the mistreatment and discrimination against catholics/nationalists by the state and some (but not all) ordinary folks, however the IRA then escalated their original (and justifiable) strategy of defending nationalist communities to killing innocent people which was bound to cause hatred and retaliation by loyalists, however they took it out on innocent people too (although they were doing that pre civil rights also, what with the burning catholics out of their homes and so on).

Most people in all communities (outside of the extremist ones - these days it's most vocally loyalist) are just decent folk who want peace.

Rumpy Pumpy

Yes, once. I found the vast majority of people I encountered to be surly and suspicious of outsiders. The ulster fry was a terrible disappointment, and I'll never forget the look on the face of the barman when I was in a pub and had the temerity to order a pint bottle of Bulmers.

"It's called Magners up here laddeen" he said in that thick accent they have up there.

In absolutely no rush to go back.

Widdershins

Flimpson wrote: »

Good Christ...

And then you get nutter posts here (although I don't think they should be engaged with as they're just trying to provoke) maintaining the conflict was entirely republican orchestrated.

Meanwhile, normal informed people acknowledge there was rotten murdering scum on both sides and that the root of the conflict was the mistreatment and discrimination against catholics/nationalists by the state and some (but not all) ordinary folks, however the IRA then escalated their original (and justifiable) strategy of defending nationalist communities to killing innocent people which was bound to cause hatred and retaliation by loyalists, however they took it out on innocent people too (although they were doing that pre civil rights also, what with the burning catholics out of their homes and so on).

Most people in all communities (outside of the extremist ones - these days it's most vocally loyalist) are just decent folk who want peace.

Unfortunately that poor woman probably thought it was all in the past, and you don't know you're talking to an extremist until it's too late.

All the more reason to pay attention when something seems off about how you're spoken to especially in an area with recent strife..I feel extremely naive that it never entered my head that anyone would want to know my religion in NI

Cee-Jay-Cee

I can see northern Ireland from my house. It's less than 20km away as the crow flies but I've never been there. It scares me.

K-9

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

Yes, once. I found the vast majority of people I encountered to be surly and suspicious of outsiders. The ulster fry was a terrible disappointment, and I'll never forget the look on the face of the barman when I was in a pub and had the temerity to order a pint bottle of Bulmers.

"It's called Magners up here laddeen" he said in that thick accent they have up there.

In absolutely no rush to go back.

Sounds traumatic.

midnight city

Widdershins wrote: »

Unfortunately that poor woman probably thought it was all in the past, and you don't know you're talking to an extremist until it's too late.

That was a recreational murder, it was for entertainment. There is no equivalent like that from the nationalist side. The level of hatred some loyalists have for ordinary 'taigs' is shocking. The republican side was mainly political although there was obviously suspicion and some hatred back. From the loyalist side it was on another level.

If you look through the archives at the number of Catholics who were beaten to death by loyalists the same can't be found from the catholic side.

tupenny

Belfast. Went once never again. Crap night life, every1 thrown out crazy early. Back to hotel and me and my mates got told to "**** off back to your own country " , some beaten up in lift in hotel. Next day there was a bomb scare so load of diversions meant we ended up in some dump with union jacks everywhere and all the kerbs painted blue white and red. Car got belted outve it.
Such a kip and serious chip on the people's shoulders. Never again.

A Little Pony

midnight city wrote: »

Widdershins wrote: »

Unfortunately that poor woman probably thought it was all in the past, and you don't know you're talking to an extremist until it's too late.

That was a recreational murder, it was for entertainment. There is no equivalent like that from the nationalist side. The level of hatred some loyalists have for ordinary 'taigs' is shocking. The republican side was mainly political although there was obviously suspicion and some hatred back. From the loyalist side it was on another level.

If you look through the archives at the number of Catholics who were beaten to death by loyalists the same can't be found from the catholic side.

lol where to start with this post. You don't know if you haven't lived it. My family moved out of a house because it kept being attacked and windows broken by Catholics.

andekwarhola

I've lived in Belfast for years and visit often.

Anybody that ends up in one of these sectarian scenarios is very unlucky.

Your average tourist is highly unlikely to encounter anything like this unless they actively go into what are clearly kips of areas.

In fact, you're far more likely (albeit still not very) to come to grief in Dublin city centre.

midnight city

A Little Pony wrote: »

lol where to start with this post. You don't know if you haven't lived it. My family moved out of a house because it kept being attacked and windows broken by Catholics.

That's hardly the same level is it? You know your community well pony you don't need me to tell you how some of them view catholics.

Reputable Rog

andekwarhola wrote: »

I've lived in Belfast for years and visit often.

Anybody that ends up in one of these sectarian scenarios is very unlucky.

Your average tourist is highly unlikely to encounter anything like this unless they actively go into what are clearly kips of areas.

In fact, you're far more likely (albeit still not very) to come to grief in Dublin city centre.

I agree, its easier run into trouble areas in Cork or Limerick or Dublin than it is Belfast. And at least in Belfast they give you a heads up by putting up flags and painting kerbstones.
A very considerate people, the Nordies.

bear1

A Little Pony wrote: »

lol where to start with this post. You don't know if you haven't lived it. My family moved out of a house because it kept being attacked and windows broken by Catholics.

You're seriously comparing the murder of a woman to a house having broken windows?

Still waiting for evidence of the sectarian psychopaths on the nationalist side from the people here who are keen to propagate the "one side is as bad as the other" myth/deny its existence in unionism/loyalism.

Another case:

Wilson had been stabbed to death 30 times and his throat sliced from ear-to-ear.... Andrews had received 20 knife wounds. A UFF Brigade Staff member described the killings to a journalist as ritualistic; in addition to the multiple stabbings, Irene Andrews also had her breasts hacked off.
... UFF leader and self-styled "Captain Black" John White confessed to the killings.... The trial judge described the killings as "a frenzied attack, a psychotic outburtst". White maintained that the UFF's second-in-command (and later North Belfast UDA brigadier) Davy Payne, also known as "The Psychopath", ... played a leading role in the killings.... Regarding Irene Andrews, White replied, "We didn't know she was a Protestant, we just thought she was a Catholic to be honest".'

Murders of Paddy Wilson & Irene Andrews

K-9

Well I suppose the IRA used proxy bombs, not psychopathic but not very nice chaps either!

marienbad

Deleted User wrote: »

Still waiting for evidence of the sectarian psychopaths on the nationalist side from the people here who are keen to propagate the "one side is as bad as the other" myth/deny its existence in unionism/loyalism.

Another case:

Wilson had been stabbed to death 30 times and his throat sliced from ear-to-ear.... Andrews had received 20 knife wounds. A UFF Brigade Staff member described the killings to a journalist as ritualistic; in addition to the multiple stabbings, Irene Andrews also had her breasts hacked off.
... UFF leader and self-styled "Captain Black" John White confessed to the killings.... The trial judge described the killings as "a frenzied attack, a psychotic outburtst". White maintained that the UFF's second-in-command (and later North Belfast UDA brigadier) Davy Payne, also known as "The Psychopath", ... played a leading role in the killings.... Regarding Irene Andrews, White replied, "We didn't know she was a Protestant, we just thought she was a Catholic to be honest".'

Murders of Paddy Wilson & Irene Andrews

I don't get what point you are actually trying to make Fuaranach ? I don't think anyone rational questions the psychopathic nature of some within the Unionist community .

What are you trying to say ? that the sectarian strain is still there or is still as rabid or what ?

Do you believe any of those attacks would happen today ?

Iwasfrozen

EWE MEAN THE OCCUPIED SIX COUNTIES????

*DURGLE DURGLE DURGLE*

For Forks Sake

Deleted User wrote: »

Still waiting for evidence of the sectarian psychopaths on the nationalist side from the people here who are keen to propagate the "one side is as bad as the other" myth/deny its existence in unionism/loyalism.

Seeing as you're asking:

2005 Murder of Robert McCartney

The fight arose when his friend, Brendan Devine, was accused of making an insulting gesture or comment to a woman in the Co social club. When Devine refused to accept this or apologise, a brawl began. McCartney, who was attempting to defend Devine, was attacked with a broken bottle and then dragged into Verner Street, beaten with metal bars and stabbed.[1] Devine also suffered a knife attack, but survived. The throats of both men had been cut and McCartney's wounds included the loss of an eye and a large blade wound running from his chest to his stomach. Devine was hospitalised under armed protection.

When the police launched the murder investigation they were met with a "wall of silence"; none of the estimated seventy or so witnesses to the altercation came forward with information.

In conversations with family members, seventy-one potential witnesses claimed to have been in the pub's toilets at the time of the attacks.

As the toilet measures just four feet by three feet, this led to the toilets being dubbed the TARDIS, after the time machine in the television series Doctor Who, which is much bigger on the inside than on the outside.

marienbad

marienbad wrote: »

I don't get what point you are actually trying to make Fuaranach ? I don't think anyone rational questions the psychopathic nature of some within the Unionist community .

What are you trying to say ? that the sectarian strain is still there or is still as rabid or what ?

Do you believe any of those attacks would happen today ?

I pointed out, instancing what happened to Anne Marie Smyth, that innocent people from a Catholic background visiting Belfast would want to be very careful where they wandered there because there are places where they will be hated for that and their lives could very well be in danger due to a long tradition of loyalist psychopathy against people because of their Catholic background. At least one unionist poster here took great exception to this statement of fact and is in denial. There is no comparable threat to the lives of equally innocent people from a Protestant background should they mistakenly wander into a republican area. This false equivalence has to stop.

For Forks Sake

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Seeing as you're asking:

2005 Murder of Robert McCartney

I never realised that Robert McCartney was Protestant and was murdered because of that. That will be news to many people, not least his family. But if that's the best you can do it proves my point once again.

marienbad

Deleted User wrote: »

I pointed out, instancing what happened to Anne Marie Smyth, that innocent people from a Catholic background visiting Belfast would want to be very careful where they wandered there because there are places where they will be hated for that and their lives could very well be in danger due to a long tradition of loyalist psychopathy against people because of their Catholic background. At least one unionist poster here took great exception to this statement of fact and is in denial. There is no comparable threat to the lives of equally innocent people from a Protestant background should they mistakenly wander into a republican area. This false equivalence has to stop.

This is what I am querying - are you saying that those horrific crimes could still happen today if someone wandered in to the wrong area ?

And no one believes that their is any kind of danger when wandering into a Republican area , so you can drop the false equivalence stuff

Widdershins

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

EWE MEAN THE OCCUPIED SIX COUNTIES????

*DURGLE DURGLE DURGLE*

Aye, they Shirley do.

munsterlegend

tupenny wrote: »

Belfast. Went once never again. Crap night life, every1 thrown out crazy early. Back to hotel and me and my mates got told to "**** off back to your own country " , some beaten up in lift in hotel. Next day there was a bomb scare so load of diversions meant we ended up in some dump with union jacks everywhere and all the kerbs painted blue white and red. Car got belted outve it.
Such a kip and serious chip on the people's shoulders. Never again.

Have been to Belfast twice and would describe it in a similar vein. the younger generation are moving on but guess it's hard with the poisonous part. Recently read paisley's biography and will take a long time to remove that Protestant mindset inherently anti Catholic. Sure look at the DUP and its language when describing nationalists.

midnight city

munsterlegend wrote: »

Have been to Belfast twice and would describe it in a similar vein. the younger generation are moving on but guess it's hard with the poisonous part. Recently read paisley's biography and will take a long time to remove that Protestant mindset inherently anti Catholic. Sure look at the DUP and its language when describing nationalists.

People should read 'ulster protestants an unsettled people'. There is a lot in that about what they think of their catholic neighbours.

Reputable Rog

midnight city wrote: »

People should read 'ulster protestants an unsettled people'. There is a lot in that about what they think of their catholic neighbours.

I read it, Northern Protestants is the actual title , it's a good read but not very reflective of northern Protestants in general.
She seems to focus primarily on extremists such as Wullie Frazier and bears little resemblance to the Protestant northerners I know.
I know lapsed protestants, fundamentalists, Token prods and loyalists and have found them all to be normal ordinary people.
A lot of what I read on here is total rubbish.

Goya

bear1 wrote: »

You're seriously comparing the murder of a woman to a house having broken windows?

midnight city wrote: »

That's hardly the same level is it? You know your community well pony you don't need me to tell you how some of them view catholics.

It was not comparable to what was done to that poor girl, but to be fair, it was a lot more than a house having broken windows - it was constant attacks, resulting in the family having to move due to the intimidation. Loyalists did that to nationalists so personally I think empathy is warranted.

A Little Pony's posts appear very "fleg" and are quite inflammatory and polarising but I don't think that should take away from what their family experienced. Although it doesn't justify some of their sentiments. Might explain them though.

A Little Pony

bear1 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

lol where to start with this post. You don't know if you haven't lived it. My family moved out of a house because it kept being attacked and windows broken by Catholics.

You're seriously comparing the murder of a woman to a house having broken windows?

If we are going to go on sectarian murders, the list is endless. Arguably the worst atrocity during the terrorist campaign was the Kingsmill massacre which was specifically targeting Protestants. To argue Republican haven't murdered due to sectarian reasons is an absolute farce. Its like shooting fish in a barrel debunking it.

A Little Pony

Flimpson wrote: »

bear1 wrote: »

You're seriously comparing the murder of a woman to a house having broken windows?

midnight city wrote: »

That's hardly the same level is it? You know your community well pony you don't need me to tell you how some of them view catholics.

It was not comparable to what was done to that poor girl, but to be fair, it was a lot more than a house having broken windows - it was constant attacks, resulting in the family having to move due to the intimidation. Loyalists did that to nationalists so personally I think empathy is warranted.

A Little Pony's posts appear very "fleg" and are quite inflammatory and polarising but I don't think that should take away from what their family experienced. Although it doesn't justify some of their sentiments. Might explain them though.

It was the 90s, coming out of the troubles. The war if you want to call it that is over and has been for a long time. Protestants and Catholics from my area get on in such a way that no one really even thinks about that aspect now. It is just history to people now. It was the best thing about the GFA, over time it has made society normal, not perfect but normal.

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

I never realised that Robert McCartney was Protestant and was murdered because of that. That will be news to many people, not least his family. But if that's the best you can do it proves my point once again.

Ah right, you want sectarian psychopaths, not your ordinary, decent run of the mill psychopath!

TommyRiordan

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Londonderry.

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I read it, Northern Protestants is the actual title , it's a good read but not very reflective of northern Protestants in general.
She seems to focus primarily on extremists such as Wullie Frazier and bears little resemblance to the Protestant northerners I know.
I know lapsed protestants, fundamentalists, Token prods and loyalists and have found them all to be normal ordinary people.
A lot of what I read on here is total rubbish.

Went from the second page straight to the final page. Still trying to be as argumentative as possible after getting no likes. Gotta admire the dedication.

Also gotta admire the kingsmill massacre being dragged about and liked by mods. Practically the only thing prods have going for them in acting like they are targeted. Lived in every place in the north and practically everywhere has an atrocity of catholics being targeted, even the kingsmill massacre had more catholics killed in retaliation than prods were killed in it.

Lived in Belfast for years and it has admittedly made me bitter and ignorant as the first page poster describes... I've been in the city centre and seen countless sectarian abuse from one side and one side only. Lived in the west, east and south and see flegs and curbstones painted from one side by a laughable majority and one side only.

bear1

I think there are two things here, 1 is that there was unneccesary loss of life on both sides and over what? Utter bull****.
The other issue is that it seems any thread like this is only going to go one way and that's comparing catholics vs. protestants.
There will always be people saying the North is a **** hole and those that say the South is a **** hole.
This is exactly why a united Ireland will never work, people are not going to be able to let go and I can't see the North suddenly accepting Dublin as their head of state just as I can't see the rest of the ROI wanting to have NI back.
Too much has happened, for right or wrong there has been too much blood spilt over it.
We could argue that one nation is responsible for all of this but c'est la vie.