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Rent Review and Notice

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  • 14-12-2016 10:20am
    #1
    Richard571
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭


    laserlad2010 wrote: »
    afaik he may only serve you notice of a rent review on the day when the 2 year period is up (either from the last rent increase or the commencement of the lease). On that day he may give you 90 days notice. Anything earlier is invalid and should be ignored.

    Thats what I've gleaned from lurking on this forum! I am open to correction.

    This is not quite accurate. Landlord can give notice of rent review i.e. issue letter etc giving due notice but cannot actually adjust rent until the 2 year period is up (the actual rent review).

    However in this instance the landlord is taking the perverbial: if new legislation comes into place before rent review this would apply even if the landlord has given many months notice before - it is only if the actual rent has been adjusted that the new legislation would not apply until next review.


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    #2
    Ms Doubtfire1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Ms Doubtfire1


    Richard571 wrote: »
    laserlad2010 wrote: »
    afaik he may only serve you notice of a rent review on the day when the 2 year period is up (either from the last rent increase or the commencement of the lease). On that day he may give you 90 days notice. Anything earlier is invalid and should be ignored.

    Thats what I've gleaned from lurking on this forum! I am open to correction.

    This is not quite accurate. Landlord can give notice of rent review i.e. issue letter etc giving due notice but cannot actually adjust rent until the 2 year period is up (the actual rent review).

    However in this instance the landlord is taking the perverbial: if new legislation comes into place before rent review this would apply even if the landlord has given many months notice before - it is only if the actual rent has been adjusted that the new legislation would not apply until next review.
    Thats incorrect. he can't serve notice. Not until the 2 years have fully passed.


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    #3
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #4
    DubCount
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭DubCount


    Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »
    Thats incorrect. he can't serve notice. Not until the 2 years have fully passed.

    If it is a new rental, then the notice cannot be given until 2 years have expired and the 90 day notice means the new rent cannot start until 2 years and 90 days after the start of a new tenancy.

    However, as far as I know, for rent reviews for existing tenancies, the notice period can begin within the 2 year period since the last review.

    Like I said, there is a lot of confusion on this, and I would contact the RTB for a definitive view as to whether the notice is valid or not.


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    #5
    Ms Doubtfire1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Ms Doubtfire1


    mrsWhippy wrote: »
    karloseqm wrote: »
    Don't pay and wait 2 years then move out as he can't throw you out.

    Can he not? Surely if he needs it for 'family' he could?
    Yes there are specific cases where he can terminate-  but he does carry the burdon of proof on that. Frankly, I would send him a simple letter back pointing out the legislation currently valid and leave it at that. If he than all the sudden decides he needs the house for family or wants to sell - well, i wonder what the TB will have to say to that as it comes so short after a tried rent increase...


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    #6
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Notice can't be served until the two year mark has passed. I'm pretty sure this has been confirmed already.


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    #7
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #8
    Richard571
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Richard571


    There is so much mis-information out there. Looking at PRTB and Citixen information all it states is "Tenants must be informed of an increase to their rent. For private rented tenancies , a rent increase can only occur once every two years in accordance with the current market rent and a 90 day written notice must be given. For approved housing body tenancies rent reviews are determined by each tenancy agreement."
    If you had to allow for 2 years + 90 days then the increase could only occur every 2 years and 90 days. Nowhere does it state that notice of rent review cannot be given 90 days before 2 years. If someone would like to show me otherwise please do but until then stop referencing confirmation of unknown sources.....


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    #9
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #10
    Giblet
    Registered Users Posts: 11,980 ✭✭✭✭Giblet


    You can give a rent notice at 1 year 9 months, the RTB even have an example to this effect.

    Not sure where people got the idea it was only given after the 2 years.

    http://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/notice-of-terminations-landlord-pdf/notice-of-new-rent-2.pdf?sfvrsn=2


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    #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Even if this opinion that the notice of increased rent is the review (which in my opinion is wrong, the rent review is when it's increased in mine and many other people's opinion) is proven to be rule then people saying the notice can't be given until Sep 17 are still wrong, it should be given at the start of August 17 which would be 24 months since the last notice of rent increase would have been issued.

    My opinion is that once tested it will be proven that the intention of the legislation was that the rent review = the rent increase and that the notice can be given at 21 months for the increase to happen at 24 months.


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    #12
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Erika Massive Wood wrote: »
    My opinion is that once tested it will be proven that the intention of the legislation was that the rent review = the rent increase and that the notice can be given at 21 months for the increase to happen at 24 months.
    Mine too. It's bloody common sense that the "review" is the point in time the rate changes. Anything else would be ludicrous even for us.


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    #13
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    murphaph wrote: »
    Mine too. It's bloody common sense that the "review" is the point in time the rate changes. Anything else would be ludicrous even for us.

    That's not what the legislation says though. The review and setting the new rent are two different actions in the legislation. The review can only happen after 24 months have elapsed and the setting of the new rent can only happen after the review with 90 days notice.


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    #14
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #15
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Section 21. Setting the rent is on foot of the review.

    Section 22. The setting of new rent is pursuant to the review.

    If we're talking common sense then we must use the normal meanings of these terms. Review means "a formal assessment of something with the intention of instituting change if necessary", it doesn't mean the change itself. In that case the landlord can't formally assess the difference of the rent to the market until after 24 months have passed. Then, they can set the new rent with 90 days notice.


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    #16
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #17
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I don't see how that contradicts Michael D's post, but I would maintain that this is all about a particular interpretation of the, as yet, untested law. A "review" I would argue has a particular meaning wrt rent. Historically I would say a review always meant "the rent changing".


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    #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Section 21. Setting the rent is on foot of the review.

    Section 22. The setting of new rent is pursuant to the review.

    If we're talking common sense then we must use the normal meanings of these terms. Review means "a formal assessment of something with the intention of instituting change if necessary", it doesn't mean the change itself. In that case the landlord can't formally assess the difference of the rent to the market until after 24 months have passed. Then, they can set the new rent with 90 days notice.

    The common sense use of review to me would be that it refers to the increase as that's how I would use the term.

    My pay being reviewed means my pay has been increased for example. I still think there is misinterpretation happening as it just doesn't make any sense that the rent cant be increased on the 24 month anniversary of the tenancy which would mean giving notice 3 months previously. The wording should have been "rent cannot be changed for 24 months" this would have taken away any confusion.

    If it is proven to be true its absolutely idiotic imo as its not 24 months (as stated by the rule) between increases its 27.


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    #19
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    From your same link:

    "2. A landlord has reviewed the rent of a dwelling on 3 December 2015 (prior to the commencement of the new legislative changes), and served a 28 day notice that the rent was to increase on 1 January 2016. The next rent review notice can not issue until 3 December 2017 and would additionally have to provide 90 days notice prior to the change taking effect, which would be 4 March 2018."

    Clearly differentiates the review and the notice of when the new rent starts. In your interpretation, the review occurred on 1 Jan 2016 with 28 days notice. If that were the case the next review could take place 1 Jan 2018 with 3 months notice. That's not what the RTB are saying though.


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    #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    From your same link:

    "2. A landlord has reviewed the rent of a dwelling on 3 December 2015 (prior to the commencement of the new legislative changes), and served a 28 day notice that the rent was to increase on 1 January 2016. The next rent review notice can not issue until 3 December 2017 and would additionally have to provide 90 days notice prior to the change taking effect, which would be 4 March 2018."

    Clearly differentiates the review and the notice of when the new rent starts. In your interpretation, the review occurred on 1 Jan 2016 with 28 days notice. If that were the case the next review could take place 1 Jan 2018 with 3 months notice. That's not what the RTB are saying though.

    This is their interpretation though which until challenged and proven right is not gospel by any means.


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    #21
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Erika Massive Wood wrote: »
    This is their interpretation though which until challenged and proven right is not gospel by any means.

    It would be challenged in front of the RTB and they'd side with their own advice and the legislation as written. If it went to court on a point of law then it could go through more thorough scrutiny but no one is likely to do that for the sake of a couple of months difference in the notice. Please provide your own interpretation of the law as written so I can refute it.


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    #22
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    No interpretation of law is gospel in fairness. Except maybe the Supreme Court.


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    #23
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Lux23 wrote: »
    No interpretation of law is gospel in fairness. Except maybe the Supreme Court.

    There are interpretations of the law which are demonstrably false however.


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    #24
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,535 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    That's not what the legislation says though. The review and setting the new rent are two different actions in the legislation. The review can only happen after 24 months have elapsed and the setting of the new rent can only happen after the review with 90 days notice.

    No an increase is only every 24 months not a review


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    #25
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #26
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    ted1 wrote: »
    No an increase is only every 24 months not a review

    That's not what the legislation says. Please provide the section of the RTA that supports your position.


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    #27
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    That's honestly a terrible argument. It's the interpretation of the law and is supported by the RTB examples.


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    #28
    axcel
    Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭axcel


    I'm not sure how this is helping the op?


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    #29
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    Example:
    A landlord reviews the rent of a dwelling on 1 January 2016 by serving a 90 day notice of rent review
    indicating that the change will take effect from the 1 April 2016. A subsequent Notice of Rent Review
    can not issue until 1 January 2018 and must also provide 90 days notice prior to the change taking
    effect

    This sounds to me that the rent review can't take place until the two years is up while also providing a further 90 days notice. That seems pretty straightforward to me.

    http://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/notice-of-terminations-landlord-pdf/notice-of-new-rent-2.pdf?sfvrsn=2


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    #30
    Giblet
    Registered Users Posts: 11,980 ✭✭✭✭Giblet


    Lux23 wrote: »
    Example:
    A landlord reviews the rent of a dwelling on 1 January 2016 by serving a 90 day notice of rent review
    indicating that the change will take effect from the 1 April 2016. A subsequent Notice of Rent Review
    can not issue until 1 January 2018 and must also provide 90 days notice prior to the change taking
    effect

    This sounds to me that the rent review can't take place until the two years is up while also providing a further 90 days notice. That seems pretty straightforward to me.

    http://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/notice-of-terminations-landlord-pdf/notice-of-new-rent-2.pdf?sfvrsn=2

    That's not what is says at all. It says the change will take effect from April in the first instance, so it's 90 days before the 2 year period.


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    #31
    Colking
    Registered Users Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭Colking


    Lux23 wrote: »
    Example:
    A landlord reviews the rent of a dwelling on 1 January 2016 by serving a 90 day notice of rent review
    indicating that the change will take effect from the 1 April 2016. A subsequent Notice of Rent Review
    can not issue until 1 January 2018 and must also provide 90 days notice prior to the change taking
    effect

    This sounds to me that the rent review can't take place until the two years is up while also providing a further 90 days notice. That seems pretty straightforward to me.

    http://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/notice-of-terminations-landlord-pdf/notice-of-new-rent-2.pdf?sfvrsn=2
    Giblet wrote: »
    That's not what is says at all. It says the change will take effect from April in the first instance, so it's 90 days before the 2 year period.


    You're both correct. In the examples given the rent would increase on the 24 month anniversary and the notice would be given on the 24 month anniversary which happens to be 90 days prior to the new rent start date.


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